Article: Sano Going To Let It Eat

[bean5302]

I see a lot of the same arguments which I don't feel have a great deal of merit. The concepts that body types or genetics have a significant impact on weight hasn't been founded in science based on any articles or papers I've read about.

 

The idea somebody can be 6'4" and ripped at 290-300 lbs isn't realistic. Even a natural bodybuilder won't weigh more than 240-260 lbs at Miguel Sano's height.

 

Hrbek was used as an example of how a poorly conditioned 1B can still be effective, but Hrbek never exceeded about 250 lbs and once Hrbek hit that weight, his performance tanked and he started getting hurt a lot. Hrbek's best years were played under 240 lbs. Ortiz was a DH and a far superior hitter than Sano. Ortiz capped out around 270 lbs before he began to lighten up and played his final years around 230lbs. Prince Fielder, who was a far superior hitter to Sano, played at a max of 275 lbs (though 4" shorter than Sano) and his weight ended his elite bat at age 28 and chased him from the game entirely at age 32. Ryan Howard maxed out at 275 lbs and wanted to play at 235 lbs so he could increase his value. The history is long and well documented on this issue. Sano will be at his best playing at UNDER 240 lbs. Playing at 235 will not hurt Sano's power. It will increase Sano's bat speed. It will increase Sano's sprint speed. It will increase Sano's range. It will improve Sano's durability. It will improve Sano's endurance.

 

While Sano may be able to continue to crush baseballs at 290lbs, his average and on base percentage will be significantly lower and his value in the field will be wiped out as a result. Sano continuing to play at extreme weights will kill his value to the Twins as a player or a trade candidate and it WILL end his career maybe even 10 years early.

 

I'd like Sano to play the best he can for the Twins or whatever team he winds up with long term if not the Twins. I'd like him to maximize his value for my favorite baseball team. If he wants to eat his way to 400+ lbs, that's his prerogative. I won't be upset or dislike him or do anything other than wish him well for it. If he's happy, that's great. All that aside, he won't be nearly as good as he could have been or nearly as valuable to the Twins as he could have been.

[yarnivek1972]

As someone who is overweight, I feel I know what the disadvantages are. Lack of stamina. More prone to nagging aches and pain. Granted, that’s me at 45, not 25. But I’m also not being asked to be a professional athlete. I don’t know if his “ideal” weight is 240 or 290. I really don’t care. I do care that he has missed roughly 1/3 of the team’s games the last two years. Is that all because of his weight? No. Some of it? Probably. But there is no way I am going to build a franchise around a player that can’t stay on the field. His best chance of doing that is being in shape, whatever that means for him. He is a pro athlete. His livelihood depends on his body being able to perform. He needs to get that.

[OldManWinter]

That much surplus weight is never a good thing (except for an NFL lineman who keep a hippopotamus off their QB's, or noseguards that anchor their DL's.

 

Hrbek's weight did not match what Sano is now at the same point in his career.

 

If Sano does not lose weight he will be: 1) less effective; 2) be more injury prone; 3) be slower to move; 4) have a shorter career; and, 5) be hard on his heart and vascular system.

 

None of that is beneficial.

[Craig Arko]

I see a lot of the same arguments which I don't feel have a great deal of merit. The concepts that body types or genetics have a significant impact on weight hasn't been founded in science based on any articles or papers I've read about.

Here you go.

 

https://www.salon.com/2015/04/12/you_should_never_diet_again_the_science_and_genetics_of_weight_loss/

 

From twins research conducted at the University of Minnesota.

[Matt Johnson]

 

um.. yeah, to an extent. Efficiency is a huge part of this equation. 

So 2-2 could potentially equal 1? 

[Richie the Rally Goat]

From this article by the Pioneer Press' Brian Murphy:

 

*Meanwhile, manager Paul Molitor is still trying to establish a deeper relationship with Sano to help the talented but enigmatic cleanup hitter reach his full potential as a reliable run-producer and professional.

 

"Talented, but..." speaks volumes here.

 

*Molitor said he has enlisted teammates to help Sano focus and hone his craft, but that has produced mixed results.

 

If a player was doing just fine on his own, it wouldn't be necessary for the manager to round up other players to babysit Sano to 'focus'.

 

*“I think the trend has been he’s figuring some things out; some things have been a little harder to get through to him,” Molitor said. “At times I’ve tried to involve people that might be able to provide a voice that will penetrate. We’re just trying to get him to see the bigger picture.

 

“He loves to play. It’s all in front of him. He, as much as anyone in that clubhouse, wants what’s in front of him, but I’m not sure he understands what is required to reap those rewards — of competing, winning, financial security, taking care of his family. We’re trying.”

 

"Some things have been a little harder to get through to him"? To me that's coachspeak for 'No matter what we say, this is someone who has to figure it out for himself, and he either can't or won't do that on his own to this point...' The underlined statements above come across to me as general statements that may as well be red flags. Big ones.

 

Sano has the potential to be a generational big leaguer. These types of talents don't grow on trees, especially for the Twins. I cannot understand why so many people are willing to give him a pass on his lack of conditioning and / or devotion to his craft. The Twins are going to have to decide fairly soon if Sano is someone they want to hitch their wagon to long term. Sano himself is making what should be a no-brainer of a choice for the Twins front office a real head-scratcher.

everyone learns differently. Everyone coaches/teaches differently. I struggle with coming to a conclusion about Sano or his coachability. Maybe it is just that and Molitor is using the media to make his point. Maybe it’s just a description of the process that coaches go through with players.

 

I’m not sure how Sano’s relationship with his coach plays into this. If I were Levine my concern would be durability and the rest would largely depend on the results of the MLB investigation. Coaches/managers come and go

Edited February 21, 2018 by Sconnie

[Squirrel]

Here you go.https://www.salon.com/2015/04/12/you_should_never_diet_again_the_science_and_genetics_of_weight_loss/

From twins research conducted at the University of Minnesota.

This is a very interesting study. It makes me wonder if those with a genetic predisposition of being leaner have difficulties understanding those whose genetic predisposition is, well, larger. They can’t understand the difficulties in maintaining and losing weight because it’s never been difficult for them and then chalk it up to the person with difficulties not trying hard enough which leads to all sorts of messages of ‘We’re just not getting through to him,’ or ‘He’s not taking his profession seriously enough.’ I’m not saying that I give Sano a pass to go out and load up, but I wonder if our lines of what’s reasonable in his case are just off. When I saw him at drills, he just didn’t look as bad as some are making him out to be. Yes, I think he needs to catch up with some of his conditioning and maybe trim down some, but I don’t think he’s egregiously out of shape and/or overweight. Maybe where you’d expect him to be after recovering from surgery. Wasn’t the initial timeline on that going to run into ST anyway? But I don’t know what he has and hasn’t been doing to at least help his case. So I don’t give him a complete pass. But it worries me the comments Molitor is making. Not from the standpoint of Molitor really trying the help Sano, but worried he’s ready to write him off because he can’t relate.

[kab21]

 

Will you care if he averages 115 games per year for his career at $25 mil plus?

Yes, but that is just a WAG on his games played as a DH with no basis and one of the reasons why I don't have a problem with him moving off of 3B sooner rather than later. I am also mostly concerned about the next 4 years (not the 25M/yr years) because I consider it doubtful that he resigns as a FA. 

[prouster]

 

What reality has been invented? The only reality that is being discussed is that Sano has come into camp overweight enough that our front office has had to field questions on whether his size will affect his performance. I doubt very much that there is any sort of "weight goal" in writing, however it is not difficult to deduce from their concern that an general outline of where they would like him to be exists and has been discussed with him. If it hasn't, that is negligence on the part of management. If they are viewing it as an issue, why shouldn't we? Also, don't recall seeing a single comment on here calling Miguel obese and lazy. Lamenting that he seems to have such a hard time being disciplined with his fitness, yes. Obese and lazy, no.

 

The invented reality is the one in which Sano has flouted orders and shown up to camp in inexcusably bad shape. Someone called it "obese." At least one other has said Sano "looks like an offensive lineman." It's an alternate reality in which he is "basically telling his bosses that he doesn't feel the need to do what they ask of him." Or, you know, that Sano is lazy. This despite obvious photographic and video evidence, anecdotal evidence from posters who have seen him with their own eyes, and news reports that Sano has alternated between Florida and the DR working out since December. It's one thing to say Sano needs to get back into playing shape, but it's another to distort empirical evidence into an unrecognizable picture.

 

For the life of me, I can't follow a line of reasoning that goes, If this hypothetical thing is the case, and if this other hypothetical thing is the case, therefore we can conclude Sano has no discipline and refuses to listen to his bosses. What could it be that's driving this narrative?

[prouster]

 

The invented reality is the one in which Sano has flouted orders and shown up to camp in inexcusably bad shape. Someone called it "obese." At least one other has said Sano "looks like an offensive lineman." It's an alternate reality in which he is "basically telling his bosses that he doesn't feel the need to do what they ask of him." Or, you know, that Sano is lazy. This despite obvious photographic and video evidence, anecdotal evidence from posters who have seen him with their own eyes, and news reports that Sano has alternated between Florida and the DR working out since December. It's one thing to say Sano needs to get back into playing shape, but it's another to distort empirical evidence into an unrecognizable picture.

 

For the life of me, I can't follow a line of reasoning that goes, If this hypothetical thing is the case, and if this other hypothetical thing is the case, therefore we can conclude Sano has no discipline and refuses to listen to his bosses. What could it be that's driving this narrative?

 

Here are a couple of screen shots from MLB.com's reporting. The video was posted yesterday. Presumably the footage is from this week.

[prouster]

 

But there is no way I am going to build a franchise around a player that can’t stay on the field. His best chance of doing that is being in shape, whatever that means for him. He is a pro athlete. His livelihood depends on his body being able to perform. He needs to get that.

 

I think this is fair. I'll just chip in that plenty of visibly in-shape guys have had promising careers derailed by injury. It's part of the game.

[Shane Wahl]

Yet again, here we go  . . .

 

The sexual harassment/assault issue is far of a big deal than Sano being 15 pounds overweight. Yikes.

[diehardtwinsfan]

 

 

So 2-2 could potentially equal 1? 

 

This is a really good example of putting words in people's mouth. My point is that there are tons of different reasons as to why people can and cannot lose weight. Some people can be far more efficient at turning food into energy as others. That's a fact. Some can burn more energy by doing the same tasks. That too is a fact. It's really an oversimplification to simply say that a weight number is simply assuming that one is consuming more calories than they expend. There are tons of things that go behind it, and not all of it is known, and a whole lot of it has to do with body chemistry and genetics, and those food labels you read on the box of food are nothing more than guides because of this. 

 

We've all me the person that can eat a horse and never gain a pound. We've also all met the person that continually struggles with their weight despite running marathons and restricting caloric intake. That's what a person's efficiency at those tasks will do. It's a big, complicated issue that doesn't summarize itself into the tidy world view that you've decided to use to excoriate Sano. 

[frightwig]

 

Want a good comparison? Try Pablo Sandoval. He had an OPS of .847 or above in three of his first four seasons. He clearly didn't have Sano's power, but he hit over .300 in those three seasons. He was an all star twice and received MVP consideration once. He's not an all star any more. 

 

Now look at him. 

 

Pablo Sandoval also got a lot of "Panda is skinny! Best shape of his life!" publicity before last season because he'd lost a lot of weight. At age 30, he seemed poised for a comeback, but instead he posted 65 OPS+ in 79 games. So maybe his decline is more complicated than "Panda was fat."

 

We really don't know much of anything about Sano's health, conditioning, or rehab. When was he able to put any weight on his leg? Did he follow a diet that, for whatever reason, hasn't been right for him? Was he depressed or stress-eating?

 

We don't even really know if he's out of shape or if the Twins are unhappy with his conditioning.

 

On February 9, RotoBaller.com reported, "Minnesota Twins third baseman Miguel Sano (leg) appears to be getting into game-ready form, as Twins chief baseball officer Derek Falvey said in an interview on Treasure Island Baseball Network this week that the team is 'very happy' with how Sano's rehab has gone."

 

On February 19, "Minnesota Twins third baseman Miguel Sano (shin) dealt with shin surgery this offseason but is looking very strong at spring training. Many Twins beat writers have commented on his power in batting practice, with Phil Miller of the Minneapolis Star Tribune pointing out that he has been hitting balls particularly far."

 

Now, that sounds pretty encouraging, doesn't it?

 

Almost makes you think that people are gossiping about rumors, stretching them all out of proportion, even if they don't know what they're talking about.

[Doubles]

 

everyone learns differently. Everyone coaches/teaches differently. I struggle with coming to a conclusion about Sano or his coachability. Maybe it is just that and Molitor is using the media to make his point. Maybe it’s just a description of the process that coaches go through with players.

I’m not sure how Sano’s relationship with his coach plays into this. If I were Levine my concern would be durability and the rest would largely depend on the results of the MLB investigation. Coaches/managers come and go

Read between the lines.  The manager/coaching staff is the conduit between the players & the front office.  And if, in fact, the club is resorting to going public like this, I would fully believe they have tried addressing this stuff with Sano directly, probably multiple times, and have gotten nowhere.  Now they're trying another avenue to deliver the message.

 

If your 'concern' is durability, how is it you are giving Sano a free pass on his lack of responsibility / accountability to report to spring training in optimal physical condition yet again?  Show me a player with exceptional durability in any sport who does not take meticulous care of himself.  And no, pitchers don't count.  

Edited February 22, 2018 by Doubles

[Squirrel]

Read between the lines. The manager/coaching staff is the conduit between the players & the front office. And if, in fact, the club is resorting to going public like this, I would fully believe they have tried addressing this stuff with Sano directly, probably multiple times, and have gotten nowhere. Now they're trying another avenue to deliver the message.

 

If your 'concern' is durability, how is it you are giving Sano a free pass on his lack of responsibility / accountability to report to spring training in optimal physical condition yet again? Show me a player with exceptional durability in any sport who does not take meticulous care of himself. And no, pitchers don't count.

Or what they’ve tried isn’t working because of things in the article Craig posted earlier and they are chalking it up to him not trying, or whatever, instead of their own lack of fully understanding the issues, specifically the manager. As I’ve said I don’t give Sano a full pass but I can’t and won’t at this time lay it all at his feet, either, as many are so wont to do.

[TheLeviathan]

 

Read between the lines.  The manager/coaching staff is the conduit between the players & the front office.  And if, in fact, the club is resorting to going public like this, I would fully believe they have tried addressing this stuff with Sano directly, probably multiple times, and have gotten nowhere.  Now they're trying another avenue to deliver the message.

 

If your 'concern' is durability, how is it you are giving Sano a free pass on his lack of responsibility / accountability to report to spring training in optimal physical condition yet again?  Show me a player with exceptional durability in any sport who does not take meticulous care of himself.  And no, pitchers don't count.  

 

I'm going to say this as delicately as I can:

 

If we want to play the "read between the lines" game, this thread might lead us to some awful dark conclusions about some of our posters. 

 

I'd caution how much you want to do that sort of thing.  You don't know Miguel Sano and you don't know the way in with Paul Molitor meant that.  Trying to turn it into another bit of evidence that Sano is a terrible, lazy, waste of a human being seems really unnecessary.

[Doubles]

 

I'm going to say this as delicately as I can:

 

If we want to play the "read between the lines" game, this thread might lead us to some awful dark conclusions about some of our posters. 

 

I'd caution how much you want to do that sort of thing.  You don't know Miguel Sano and you don't know the way in with Paul Molitor meant that.  Trying to turn it into another bit of evidence that Sano is a terrible, lazy, waste of a human being seems really unnecessary.

Why are you such an apologist for one of the most coveted Twins prospects OF ALL TIME putting less than his best foot forward?

[TheLeviathan]

 

Why are you such an apologist for one of the most coveted Twins prospects OF ALL TIME putting less than his best foot forward?

 

Because I don't know if he's not putting his best foot forward.  I don't know if he's trying and failing, not trying, or trying and succeeding just fine.  I know very little about that, as I suspect is the same for you. 

 

I refuse to crucify the guy for something that, at best, gets whispered vaguely to the beat writers.  Hell, it didn't take more than one odd picture for people to declare him an obese 290 pound slob.  It seems to me that people are looking to declare him lazy and any nugget they can use is happily accepted.

 

I prefer not to indulge in that.  I hope the Twins are being serious with him about conditioning and I hope Miguel is taking it seriously as well.

[Doubles]

 

Because I don't know if he's not putting his best foot forward.  I don't know if he's trying and failing, not trying, or trying and succeeding just fine.  I know very little about that, as I suspect is the same for you. 

 

I refuse to crucify the guy for something that, at best, gets whispered vaguely to the beat writers.  Hell, it didn't take more than one odd picture for people to declare him an obese 290 pound slob.  It seems to me that people are looking to declare him lazy and any nugget they can use is happily accepted.

 

I prefer not to indulge in that.  I hope the Twins are being serious with him about conditioning and I hope Miguel is taking it seriously as well.

Congrats on being such a nice human being.  Good on you for being so non-judgmental.  You are willing to give Sano the benefit of the doubt far longer than I.

 

 

[USAFChief]

I'm going to say this as delicately as I can:

 

If we want to play the "read between the lines" game, this thread might lead us to some awful dark conclusions about some of our posters.

 

I'd caution how much you want to do that sort of thing. You don't know Miguel Sano and you don't know the way in with Paul Molitor meant that. Trying to turn it into another bit of evidence that Sano is a terrible, lazy, waste of a human being seems really unnecessary.

I'd caution you about railing against things that haven't been said.

Because as far as I can tell not one poster has called Sano a terrible, lazy waste of a human being.

[Twodogs]

 

All it matters: 

Sano's MLB career line: 359 wOBA, 124 wRC+

and that's with him battling injuries and he still is a few season's off his prime.

 

Mauer's career line:  .361 wOBA, 124 wRC+

 

Eeriliy similar, yet the same people who seemingly want to crucify Sano based on his genetics want to send Mauer to Cooperstown.

 

Sano is already answering his critics with really long fly balls at Fort Myers.  I hope he continues throughout the season, overweight or not.

 

Babe Ruth should be happy that the BMI police was not around then...

 

 

Ozzie Smith wouldn't have made the hall of fame as a DH or at 1B/3B either.  I think Mauer's stats play very well with all of the years he spent at catcher, if he were a life timer at 1B I don't think anyone even thinks twice about Mauer in the HOF.  But when the majority of his career was at catcher then the discussion is at least there.

[Doubles]

 

Sano is already answering his critics with really long fly balls at Fort Myers.  I hope he continues throughout the season, overweight or not.

 

Hitting dingers in spring training proves absolutely nothing to anybody.  How about he tries to be on the field more than 70% of the time during the regular season?    Now he's gonna be subjected to missing games this season due to his off-the-field behavior. 

 

I should probably know better by now, but the number of people who support athletes unconditionally flabbergasts me.  I guess I should keep the root word that 'fan' is derived from in mind.

 

 

 

[Riverbrian]

 

The invented reality is the one in which Sano has flouted orders and shown up to camp in inexcusably bad shape. Someone called it "obese." At least one other has said Sano "looks like an offensive lineman." It's an alternate reality in which he is "basically telling his bosses that he doesn't feel the need to do what they ask of him." Or, you know, that Sano is lazy. This despite obvious photographic and video evidence, anecdotal evidence from posters who have seen him with their own eyes, and news reports that Sano has alternated between Florida and the DR working out since December. It's one thing to say Sano needs to get back into playing shape, but it's another to distort empirical evidence into an unrecognizable picture.

 

For the life of me, I can't follow a line of reasoning that goes, If this hypothetical thing is the case, and if this other hypothetical thing is the case, therefore we can conclude Sano has no discipline and refuses to listen to his bosses. What could it be that's driving this narrative?

 

I personally do not know his work out habits... routines... diet... genetics or attitude. 

 

I personally will try to be a little careful making any assumptions about his work out habits... routines... diet... genetics or attitude. 

[Riverbrian]

 

Pablo Sandoval also got a lot of "Panda is skinny! Best shape of his life!" publicity before last season because he'd lost a lot of weight. At age 30, he seemed poised for a comeback, but instead he posted 65 OPS+ in 79 games. So maybe his decline is more complicated than "Panda was fat."

 

 

 

The decline of the Panda could also be explained by the fact that he swung at everything and he got exploited more efficiently.

 

I'm not saying anything definite.

 

I'm just saying. 

[Craig Arko]

 

The decline of the Panda could also be explained by the fact that he swung at everything and he got exploited more efficiently.

 

I'm not saying anything definite.

 

I'm just saying. 

You're just going to get an 'Eddie Rosario is fat' meme started now.

[Squirrel]

Hitting dingers in spring training proves absolutely nothing to anybody. How about he tries to be on the field more than 70% of the time during the regular season? Now he's gonna be subjected to missing games this season due to his off-the-field behavior.

 

I should probably know better by now, but the number of people who support athletes unconditionally flabbergasts me. I guess I should keep the root word that 'fan' is derived from in mind.

 

 

 

 

As much as Levi is being cautioned about arguing against things no one said, I’ll caution you as well. The majority of people here are in in-between land. You seem to have an all or nothing take, which is fine, it’s your opinion. But if others want to take a more tempered road that is acceptable as well and there is no need to say they are being unconditionally fanatical about it. Agree to disagree short of the implied name calling, please.

 

That last sentence is for everyone.

[Riverbrian]

 

You're just going to get an 'Eddie Rosario is fat' meme started now.

 

Post of the Day!!! You are ready for the game threads. 

[Richie the Rally Goat]

Read between the lines.

 

If your 'concern' is durability, how is it you are giving Sano a free pass on his lack of responsibility / accountability to report to spring training in optimal physical condition yet again? Show me a player with exceptional durability in any sport who does not take meticulous care of himself. And no, pitchers don't count.

No, I refuse to read between the lines. I don’t have the background to jump to the same conclusion. It’s just as likely to me that Molitor got his butt chewed by Levine over saying something like that to the press. I have no idea

 

Sano broke a bone in his leg that required a rod to be inserted into the bone in order for it to heal. He was just recently cleared for baseball activities. I don’t see that as “giving him a pass”, as I see it, it’s realism.

 

Should he show up in shape? Absolutely. Do I know what exactly that entails? No.

 

As far as durability related to taking care of himself, I’m not sure how closely related those are. The conception with pitchers seems like big is good in regards to durability and small is bad. How is pitching unrelated? Sanos last injury was Tommy John, a pitchers surgery, and Sano is big.

 

Being in shape wouldn’t have helped him with fouling a ball off his leg, unless being skinny provides a smaller target to hit. Maybe he should be a bean pole so he could dodge a baseball being hurled in his general direction at 90 miles per hour?

Edited February 22, 2018 by Sconnie

[TheLeviathan]

 

I'd caution you about railing against things that haven't been said.
Because as far as I can tell not one poster has called Sano a terrible, lazy waste of a human being.

 

Fine, no one has said those exact words, but what else are we supposed to glean about Sano from these 11 pages?  What is the main idea of this little conversation?

 

It sure seems to be - Miguel Sano is lazy.  Miguel Sano doesn't care.  Miguel Sano is selfish.  We make assumption about his habits based on next to nothing.  And, even worse, the frequency with which these attacks happen sure doesn't make me feel like putting a positive spin on the attacks.  Eventually, you're attacking the person and not the habits.  And we simply don't know enough about his habits to start getting personal.

 

And, as i said before, it sure didn't take much to launch this 11 page thread.  That's not a ringing endorsement for how people are going about this.

Edited February 22, 2018 by TheLeviathan