Supreme Court

[TheLeviathan]

Avenetti is starting to feel more and more like a political operative himself.  Hopefully his claim is legit, but I'm initially skeptical.

[ashbury]

Avenetti is starting to feel more and more like a political operative himself.  Hopefully his claim is legit, but I'm initially skeptical.

Do you have a lawyer in mind whom you would use for something more complex than writing a will or looking over the papers when buying a house? I don't.

 

If I were a woman unexpectedly in need of assistance in bringing forward a case with sexual aspects and with national implications, Stormy Daniels might come to mind and I'd reach out to her lawyer, rather than someone in my hometown. Avenetti has at least started to learn the ropes. I guess there's Gloria Allred too - or would you be skeptical in that case too?

[PseudoSABR]

 

Avenetti is starting to feel more and more like a political operative himself.  Hopefully his claim is legit, but I'm initially skeptical.

I don't know about an operative.  But he certainly is good at self-promotion.  He also seemingly got results for Stormy Daniels.  

 

The allegation is gang-rape, maybe repeated gang-rapes, so he better have evidence that traces directly to Kavanaugh; though evidence of a culture of rape at Georgetown Prep would tend to corroborate some Dr. Ford's allegations, but he's making it seem like much more damning than that.

[TheLeviathan]

 

I don't know about an operative.  But he certainly is good at self-promotion.  He also seemingly got results for Stormy Daniels.  

 

The allegation is gang-rape, maybe repeated gang-rapes, so he better have evidence that traces directly to Kavanaugh; though evidence of a culture of rape at Georgetown Prep would tend to corroborate some Dr. Ford's allegations, but he's making it seem like much more damning than that.

 

He also claimed that what Stormy Daniels knew and evidence he had would lead to impeachment.  He's made a LOT of bombastic claims.  I don't blame his client for choosing him, but he's also done so much self-promotion and public hyperbole that I'm skeptical.

I'd have been less skeptical with Allred for the record.

[gunnarthor]

I'm worried about any allegation that can be shown to be false or hard to believe since that is the one that will get focused on and kill the seriousness of the valid allegations.

[D. Hocking]

Hasn't Ronan Farrow been pretty careful not publishing things without a strong substantive foundation?  This is from his New Yorker article and does not reflect well on the Senior Republicans

 

Senior Republican staffers also learned of the allegation last week and, in conversations with The New Yorker, expressed concern about its potential impact on Kavanaugh’s nomination. Soon after, Senate Republicans issued renewed calls to accelerate the timing of a committee vote.

 

 

Regarding Kavanaugh's 1982 calendar, do they really think a teenage boy would put down in writing he went to a party where there was underage drinking?   

[PseudoSABR]

[LaBombo]

I just had an epiphany. Kavanaugh's supporters are looking forward to years of, among other things, full-throated support of the Second Amendment. Many of the same are in favor of Stand Your Ground laws - "a right by which a person may defend themselves or others (right of self-defense) against threats or perceived threats, even to the point of applying lethal force, regardless of whether safely retreating from the situation might have been possible", to borrow wording from that fount of legal precision, Wikipedia - it at least matches my general understanding.

 

I wonder how this faction would have felt if young Christine Blasey Ford^* had extricated herself from being pinned down on a bed with a hand smothering her, and gone to find her purse, and taken out her handgun, and shot young Brett Michael Kavanaugh right between the eyes. I mean, if someone fears for their life, you take them at their word when they invoke this defense, right?

 

Just like we take her at her word, now.

 

^{* _{OK, she might have been too young to legally carry a firearm. That's the technicality you're going to use?}}

I'm trying to see any point to this, other than that you believe all conservatives are hypocrites.

 

And I can't. Maybe you could clarify.

[LaBombo]

Do you have a lawyer in mind whom you would use for something more complex than writing a will or looking over the papers when buying a house? I don't.

 

If I were a woman unexpectedly in need of assistance in bringing forward a case with sexual aspects and with national implications, Stormy Daniels might come to mind and I'd reach out to her lawyer, rather than someone in my hometown. Avenetti has at least started to learn the ropes. I guess there's Gloria Allred too - or would you be skeptical in that case too?

Completely agree that you don't want a chihuahua attorney representing you in the D.C. dog fight arena.

 

But Avanetti's bio reads like a Hollywood caricature of a high roller sleezeball, and maybe a guy who's made a decent chunk of his living off of suing Trump for over a decade isn't a good choice for someone who wants it to be known that they're just an apolitical bystander who's only there to tell their story and be on their way.

[LaBombo]

 

 

The allegation is gang-rape, maybe repeated gang-rapes, so he better have evidence that traces directly to Kavanaugh; though evidence of a culture of rape at Georgetown Prep would tend to corroborate some Dr. Ford's allegations, but he's making it seem like much more damning than that.

 

There are other posts that I could link this thought to, but I chose yours for no particular reason. And I apologize if it's off topic, but just thought I'd throw it out there:

 

Is the media's digging into the D.C. prep school culture that's gone along with this incident making anybody else feel not only NOT the least bit envious of the 'privileged' children of D.C.'s 'elites', but absolutely grateful not to have grown up in that environment?

 

I'm sure the circumstances are casting that culture in an especially bad light, but still... bummer.

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

Thanks for the twitter updates, everyone.

 

I had a longer rant, but I will leave it at that.

(Please someone get this guy to go away.)

[ashbury]

I'm trying to see any point to this, other than that you believe all conservatives are hypocrites.

Not all conservatives consider the 2nd Amendment paramount, and I should have stated that more clearly.

 

Not all believe in Stand Your Ground, and I was clear enough to state that. There's probably an overlap between 2nd Amendment absolutists and Stand Your Ground, but one does not imply the other.

 

If someone takes Ford's allegations at face value, then my "I wonder" is answered in a way that the rest doesn't apply to that person.

 

So there's three ways in which I don't suggest anywhere nearly "all" of any group are involved.

 

I also don't know Kavanaugh's stance on Stand Your Ground. Maybe he would disappoint that faction if he ever had to rule on a case that involved it.

 

But, someone who is predisposed to take a Stand Your Ground claim at face value, on the "perceived" nature of the threat, but is un-disposed to take Ford's allegation seriously because it's just her say-so, is seeing daylight between two points of view that I don't.

 

As much as anything, I just thought it was interesting to consider if shooting an attempted rapist is covered by Stand Your Ground, and if the woman's "perceived" danger to her life was sufficient, using Ford and Kavanaugh merely as concrete examples.

 

But, since I struck a nerve, I think I'll also pursue this line of discussion with other groups I discuss current events with. It looks as interesting as I had hoped.

[Squirrel]

There are other posts that I could link this thought to, but I chose yours for no particular reason. And I apologize if it's off topic, but just thought I'd throw it out there:

 

Is the media's digging into the D.C. prep school culture that's gone along with this incident making anybody else feel not only NOT the least bit envious of the 'privileged' children of D.C.'s 'elites', but absolutely grateful not to have grown up in that environment?

 

I'm sure the circumstances are casting that culture in an especially bad light, but still... bummer.

Yep. Although, in my public school background, there was still always this sect, or group, or clique of the ‘privileged’ elite. There were also guys who ... did ... ‘whatever’ ... because they could, and not be called on it because the culture was such that the response was to just ‘ignore’ or ‘stay away’ from so-and-so and/or an implication that the girls brought about said male behavior. I’m on the ‘older’ side of life at this point, and in my non-elite, non-big-City public school there were instances of serious misconduct and sexual harassment or worse. It’s not just the elite, privately educated schoolboys who have partaken in this behavior. Maybe it’s more rampant because wealth seems to beget (not always) a sense of ‘I can get away with anything’ and the only remorse shown is for getting caught.

[LaBombo]

 

 

 

But, someone who is predisposed to take a Stand Your Ground claim at face value, on the "perceived" nature of the threat, but is un-disposed to take Ford's allegation seriously because it's just her say-so, is seeing daylight between two points of view that I don't.

 

As much as anything, I just thought it was interesting to consider if shooting an attempted rapist is covered by Stand Your Ground, and if the woman's "perceived" danger to her life was sufficient, using Ford and Kavanaugh merely as concrete examples.

 

But, since I struck a nerve, I think I'll also pursue this line of discussion with other groups I discuss current events with. It looks as interesting as I had hoped.

 

You're right; I should have said  'most' or 'many' conservatives, not "all".

 

In any case, I've no doubt that if you could create the right hypothetical moral and ethical lab experiment, you could find the double standard you're looking for. But applying the real world questions raised about her situation, without judging the questions or the story...

 

...a 15 year old Christine Oakley Ford packing heat at a teen drunk fest and shooting an alleged rapist would have described the attempted rape in graphic detail to police investigators immediately after it happened rather than to politicians decades later.

 

And regardless of how extraordinarily qualified for a future seat on the Supreme Court that the high school academic achievements and SAT scores of her 17 year old assailant might have made him seem, there would have been no national political implications involved in her accusation of his illegal behavior.

[LaBombo]

 

Yep. Although, in my public school background, there was still always this sect, or group, or clique of the ‘privileged’ elite. There were also guys who ... did ... ‘whatever’ ... because they could, and not be called on it because the culture was such that the response was to just ‘ignore’ or ‘stay away’ from so-and-so and/or an implication that the girls brought about said male behavior. I’m on the ‘older’ side of life at this point, and in my non-elite, non-big-City public school there were instances of serious misconduct and sexual harassment or worse. It’s not just the elite, privately educated schoolboys who have partaken in this behavior. Maybe it’s more rampant because wealth seems to beget (not always) a sense of ‘I can get away with anything’ and the only remorse shown is for getting caught.

 

The nature of female vulnerability in that dysfunctional social environment and the peer pressure to partake is definitely one of the more chilling aspects of the overall picture being painted of that culture.  That kind of behavior absolutely is not confined to any particular income or urban/rural demographic, but as you said, the privileges of wealth seem like a potential catalyst.

 

Taken as a whole, encompassing all the prep scene behavior beyond the ugliest illegal kind, it also just strikes me as a sad and cynical way to finish one's childhood. Spoiled yet bored, driven (internally or externally) to achieve yet disdainful of the opportunities those achievements might bring... there were probably some good, even wonderful things about that environment, but maybe the nature of the current coverage of it and my own personal bias are keeping me from seeing it.

[Squirrel]

 

You're right; I should have said  'most' or 'many' conservatives, not "all".

 

In any case, I've no doubt that if you could create the right hypothetical moral and ethical lab experiment, you could find the double standard you're looking for.

 

But applying the real world questions raised about her situation, without judging the questions or the story...

 

...a 15 year old Christine Oakley Ford packing heat at a teen drunk fest and shooting an alleged rapist would have described the attempted rape in graphic detail to police investigators immediately after it happened rather than to career politicians decades later.

 

And regardless of how extraordinarily qualified for a future seat on the Supreme Court that the high school academic achievements and SAT scores of her 17 year old assailant might have made him seem, there would have been no national political implications involved in her accusation of his illegal behavior.

I'm not exactly sure, though, at the time, or even today, how seriously her accusations and response to it in that manner would have been taken. At this point we're all speaking in hypotheticals, so it really matters little, but part of the problem with the sexual harassment, assault and rape culture is in this country it comes back to the belief in the victim. Whether she pressed charges back then or now, the response is the same ... why was SHE in that situation, maybe SHE mistook the situation, maybe SHE is making it up. The focus falls on the victim and her credibility, character and honesty, as it most often always has, and not on him; at least not in the same way or not as much. I honestly believe if she had defended herself by shooting him ... she no doubt would have been the one criminally punished, not him. Maybe today it would be a little different ... but not likely. You want to talk cynical? The laws in this country do nothing to protect women and minorities as they are never applied to help them let alone even to even out the playing field. We aren't equals. Never have been.

[PseudoSABR]

And another woman may have come forward to the local police.

 

While investigators weren’t specific and spoke on background, they said they are looking at allegations against Kavanaugh during his senior year in high school after an anonymous witness came forward this weekend.

This would potentially bring the number to four women accusing Kavanaugh of wrongdoing and comes after Deborah Ramirez, a former Yale college student, stepped forward this weekend to accuse Kavanaugh of exposing himself to her in college, and after attorney Michael Avenatti tweeted out a message saying he represents a woman with “credible information regarding Judge Kavanaugh and Mark Judge.”

 

[Badsmerf]

Ok, passed the point of no return for me on his nomination. If Trump doesn't pull him, and the GOP confirms him, they should be burned at the stake in November 2018 and November 2020. Replace every single Senator that votes to confirm him. These privileged white rich kids like Brock Turner getting away with assaulting women is disgusting and should not be tolerated in this country. Grow up, and treat women as a person, and not an object of your desire. I'm so sick of this ****.

 

When my son was 7 he was flipping the neighbor girls skirt up and showing her underwear. That was one of the more emotionally straining points of my parenting experience; articulating the words to express the decency and respect for girls/women deserve. I was not raised with the same courtesy, and while I don't think I ever did, I hope I didn't disparage any of the girls I grew up with.

[PseudoSABR]

This made LOL.

https://twitter.com/mattyglesias/status/1044210881343770624

[TheLeviathan]

In a fitting bit of irony, I heard a conservative radio host today say that Congress should "man up" and confirm him.  Just for context on the other side.  (Like it was needed)

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

In a fitting bit of irony, I heard a conservative radio host today say that Congress should "man up" and confirm him.  Just for context on the other side.  (Like it was needed)

It's all about making sure libturds like me never "win" an issue, no matter how sensible their position is, the left can never win, even if it means supporting sexual predators like Trump or Roy Moore (or Dennis Hastert, anyone?) or supporting an unrepentant frat boy who holds zero regard for women or women's rights, which is basically who Kavanaugh is, for a lifetime appointment on the Supreme Court. That's basically what politics boils down to right now.

[glunn]

Despite EVERYTHING that has happened there is an article on CNN today entitled "GOP sees highest favorability in seven years":

 

https://www.cnn.com/2018/09/24/politics/republican-party-favorability/index.html

 

The current state of affairs is beyond depressing. I continue to believe that the Democrats should have had a more coherent platform, and they will be lucky to take the House.

 

On the other hand I continue to write checks to the DCCC and the DSCC in the hope that they can get out the vote. If the Dems can take BOTH the Senate and the House, then perhaps disaster can be averted. But my sense is that the Dems are just not adept at what politics has become.

[PseudoSABR]

 

Despite EVERYTHING that has happened there is an article on CNN today entitled "GOP sees highest favorability in seven years":

 

https://www.cnn.com/2018/09/24/politics/republican-party-favorability/index.html

 

The current state of affairs is beyond depressing. I continue to believe that the Democrats should have had a more coherent platform, and they will be lucky to take the House.

 

On the other hand I continue to write checks to the DCCC and the DSCC in the hope that they can get out the vote. If the Dems can take BOTH the Senate and the House, then perhaps disaster can be averted. But my sense is that the Dems are just not adept at what politics has become.

Gallup has had problematic polling for years.   The Dems lead by nearly 9% on the generic ballot.  (I really thought I saw a poll today that had them up by 12, but I couldn't track it down).

 

My common sense (which isn't much) doesn't buy that somehow the GOP is getting more popular, I think they are taking significant water from the Kavanaugh "hearings" and Trumps general malaise.  

 

I see it among my coworkers too, many whom consider themselves moderate and while philosophically conservative, have given up on the GOP.  

 

I know many of us counted on such in 2016 to only end up with Trump, but I think the dynamic is clearly different.  Two years of Trump and no Clinton on the ticket will go a long way to Blue wave.

 

I too question the adeptness of the Democratic party, but if there has been a "play" on Kavanaugh, it's worked pretty well (if by means I would never prefer or endorse); I certainly hope the DNC etc. has learned their lessons, but I think we all define what that learning might be differently.  I do worry the Democrats may not be up to the task, but I think there's a real cultural shift that their incompetence won't matter, and they'll be in power in spite of it. 

[glunn]

 

Gallup has had problematic polling for years.   The Dems lead by nearly 9% on the generic ballot.  (I really thought I saw a poll today that had them up by 12, but I couldn't track it down).

 

My common sense (which isn't much) doesn't buy that somehow the GOP is getting more popular, I think they are taking significant water from the Kavanaugh "hearings" and Trumps general malaise.  

 

I see it among my coworkers too, many whom consider themselves moderate and while philosophically conservative, have given up on the GOP.  

 

I know many of us counted on such in 2016 to only end up with Trump, but I think the dynamic is clearly different.  Two years of Trump and no Clinton on the ticket will go a long way to Blue wave.

 

I too question the adeptness of the Democratic party, but if there has been a "play" on Kavanaugh, it's worked pretty well (if by means I would never prefer or endorse); I certainly hope the DNC etc. has learned their lessons, but I think we all define what that learning might be differently.  I do worry the Democrats may not be up to the task, but I think there's a real cultural shift that their incompetence won't matter, and they'll be in power in spite of it. 

I pray that you are correct and that every one of those co-workers votes and urges every one of their friends to vote.

[D. Hocking]

Did no one talk to Kavenaugh before his interview and tell him, try to come across like you were a good kid, but don't go overboard and try to paint yourself as a virginal choir boy whose main focus was on school, church and service projects and staying away from parties, because it will come across as fake and be too easy for someone to bring up examples to the contrary?

 

I do find it a bit disturbing, whether these incidents happened or not, that the GOP leadership is so eager to paint out the old -- the women are making false accusations -- before they hear any testimony and seem to be suppressing other relevant factors.   They have gone out of their way to embrace the old talking points -- she is a liar - or she is confused - or she had been drinking - or he was just a kid when it comes to disparaging a victim. 

[Craig Arko]

 

Did no one talk to Kavenaugh before his interview and tell him, try to come across like you were a good kid, but don't go overboard and try to paint yourself as a virginal choir boy whose main focus was on school, church and service projects and staying away from parties, because it will come across as fake and be too easy for someone to bring up examples to the contrary?

 

I do find it a bit disturbing, whether these incidents happened or not, that the GOP leadership is so eager to paint out the old -- the women are making false accusations -- before they hear any testimony and seem to be suppressing other relevant factors.   They have gone out of their way to embrace the old talking points -- she is a liar - or she is confused - or she had been drinking - or he was just a kid when it comes to disparaging a victim. 

Disturbing, but not in the least surprising. It's who and what they are.

[PseudoSABR]

Really smart article: Brett Kavanaugh and the Cruelty of Male Bonding

[PseudoSABR]

New Kavanaugh accuser Julie Swetnick details parties where girls allegedly were drugged and raped

 

Time to withdraw.  No more of that "even if he did do it, it wouldn't be disqualifying" (in spite of his lying about it) stuff.

[Brock Beauchamp]

I'm not proud to admit this, but...

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schadenfreude

[Mike Sixel]

Does anyone doubt he's confirmed? If not him, I'd guess Trump somehow finds someone even more right.....

 

So, if they are going to seat a righty, I'd rather it be this guy, so that voters are even more pissed......because whomever they seat won't be friendly to women, minorities, or rights in general that aren't about guns and churches and corporations.