Has the criticism of Kennys Vargas been fair?

[FunnyPenguin]

I think he is kind of like the Gibson of the Twin's offense.  Sometimes he is downright good, and you wish you could watch him be a full-timer.  Other times he looks so helpless that you don't want to see him again.  

[Respy]

On a related note, something I've been wondering for a while:  It's always looked to me that Kennys uses a bat that's too short for a man of his size.  Maybe he's just so big that the bat looks small?  Does anyone happen to know what bat length he uses?  

 

I always think in contrast the huge bat Alfonso Soriano used to use.  Small guy, but generated a lot of power and didn't need to bend over to reach low pitches (always seems to me like Kennys is hunching over to swing at pitches).

[Rosterman]

He should go to Japan and get the BIG contract!

 

[Thrylos]

 

But the kind of hitter he may become is pretty common in today's game. Corner/DH types aren't getting paid much, even if they do hit a good number of HR. Mark Reynolds', Adam Linds, Pedro Alvarezs and Mitch Morelands are available cheaply every year.

 

I think that the years of specific players occupying the DH spot are behind us.  Teams are using the DH spot to play position players who need some rest, tweaked something and cannot be 100% on the field etc.  In modern baseball it is a rotation position optimally.  So players like Vargas (and Park and Palka btw) might be at a disadvantage, unless they have a clear defensive position.  Fortunately (for all 3), the Twins do not have a heir apparent to Mauer who can start in 2019, other than one of them (with  Rooker being a wild card in this and potentially MLB-ready late next season)  so one of the 3 will definitely be with the team in 2018 and split time with Mauer at 1B and DH.

[Doomtints]

 

Only great hitters achieve a 130 wRC+ in the minor leagues?

 

Plenty of guys post a 130 wRC+ in the minors and fail to achieve that in the majors.  A few don't.  Given his MLB sample to date, Vargas sure looks like he's more in the former group than the latter.

 

Certainly, but you said he profiles to a future of suckage and then cited good minor league metrics as the reason.

 

I get it, Vargas is a tough guy to figure out due to his multiple small sample sizes. Some of us think this means he will never be good, and that's fine. I'm in the camp of him needing a decent sample to make a decision. There are things he can do that almost no prospects can!

[howeda7]

 

Grossman's bat has been dead since May. He regressed as expected.

And OBP is vastly over-rated when you're hitting 6th. When you come up with men on 2nd and 3rd and two outs, drawing a walk should not be your # priority. And having a DH who goes 2.5 months without a HR is not ideal either.

[alarp33]

 

And OBP is vastly over-rated when you're hitting 6th. When you come up with men on 2nd and 3rd and two outs, drawing a walk should not be your # priority. And having a DH who goes 2.5 months without a HR is not ideal either.

 

Robbie Grossman has 2 at bats this season with runners on 2nd and 3rd with 2 outs. 

 

If you were curious in real stats; Grossman has hit .356/.500/.556 over 58 plate appearances in "High Leverage" situations

[Otto von Ballpark]

 

Certainly, but you said he profiles to a future of suckage and then cited good minor league metrics as the reason.

"he never profiled as a great hitter" (what I said) does not remotely equate to "he profiles to a future of suckage"

[gocgo]

 

Concur. Vargas hasn't proven that he's worth a spot on the 25 man roster. No position flexibility, and doesn't hit enough to overcome the deficiencies in his game. 

Concur as well, but I will say that, last night, he hustled down the line on a dribbler back to the pitcher and got on first due to an error by a poor throw.  The previous night, he had runners on 1st and 3rd and did not hustle to first on turned out to be a poorly turned double play.  When your skills are marginal, you can't afford not to hustle and do the little things that can elevate your status with the ball club.

[drjim]

 

Robbie Grossman has 2 at bats this season with runners on 2nd and 3rd with 2 outs. 

 

Did he walk in them?

[bluechipper]

 

And OBP is vastly over-rated when you're hitting 6th. When you come up with men on 2nd and 3rd and two outs, drawing a walk should not be your # priority. And having a DH who goes 2.5 months without a HR is not ideal either.

I agree with you, but Grossman's strong 2016 combined with a solid March-May gave him some leash to keep playing for when he struggled after that. Having a .400 OBP at whatever position is valuable in a lineup.

[Otto von Ballpark]

 

On a related note, something I've been wondering for a while:  It's always looked to me that Kennys uses a bat that's too short for a man of his size.

Souhan and Reusse are working on columns now, suggesting Vargas should lose some height.

[alarp33]

 

Did he walk in them?

 

No sir (he didn't get a hit either)

[RaymondLuxuryYacht]

 

Mauer has a 107 wRC+ this year, 102 last year.  Vargas is at 91 this year, 99 career.  And given Mauer's defense, guaranteed roster spot, and perhaps his OBP fitting our lineup better, it's hard to see this as a good argument for Vargas.

 

I am glad someone responded to this

[Dantes929]

The two guys I like to watch bat the most are Buxton and Mauer but even though I like watching Mauer I am ok with the idea that he is replaceable.    Just not by Vargas.    People think he is getting yanked around but I think they are using him the way he should be which is to fill in as a DH bat when guys are hurt or that's what they need at a given time given the relief pitcher needs.    If Sano were not around I might feel different about him but as is he is a poor man's Sano and we already have the rich man's version.   I have never felt the comparisons to Ortiz ere apt just because they are both the same size.   I am 6' and 200lbs but it doesn't make me Mickey Mantle.

[drivlikejehu]

Vargas' MLB numbers are pretty much right in line with what would be expected based on his AA and AAA numbers, i.e., not very good for a DH. The fact that some other teams don't have a great DH, or just rotate players through the position, doesn't change the fact that Vargas contributes very little to the club.

[ahart10]

If Chris Carter has trouble getting work in MLB while leading the AL in homers Vargas doesn't look very valuable.

[yarnivek1972]

Switch hitters with big time HR power are rare.

 

Vargas has, at times, shown he can hit with power from both sides, though usually not particularly well from both sides in the same season.

 

He has also, at times, shown discipline at the plate. Not consistently to be sure. More like in short spurts here and there. Last year, he drew 24 walks in 175 PA, a 13% BB rate. It has dipped considerably this year though. On the plus side, his K rate has improved quite a bit over last year, to a manageable 27%. That's considerably better than Sano FWIW.

 

I would have liked to have seen Vargas get a shot all season at the MLB level. He's a far more dangerous hitter than Grossman or Mauer, that is certain. Better? Iffy.

 

Like I said, switch hitting power hitters don't grow on trees. If Vargas can put it all together, he could be a monster. Can he? I think so.

[Twodogs]

I think it might have been just a numbers game this year, all of the yanking around.  I mean they had Buxton in the lineup who hit .190 for the first half of the season and polanco went 4 for July.  Kepler has had some hot stretches and some cold ones, Sano has been hurt at times and has had some cold streaks too, the catching position hit about .200 for the first half of the year, etc......  So now Buxton once again seems to have figured it out, Rosario has been a good hitter all second half, again Kepler has some really hot stretches, Polanco is on fire, Sano is out but shouldn't be for long, Dozier is on a tear and Mauer has been pretty steady.  So when all of those guys were struggling, I think the Twins needed guys that could go in and play positions to give guys extra days off; Grossman for example had to give the corner OFers a lot of days off this year, Adrianza and Escobar have given guys a lot of days off when they were hurt or struggling etc.....  I'm hoping that next season that Buxton doesn't hit .190 in the first half or Polanco doesn't go 4 for July in those scenarios those guys will play 150 - 160 games if they mature to the point where they don't have month long prolonged slumps.  If that happens then they won't probably need so many guys that can give the regular guys days off, in that case Vargas could be that guy who DH's full time.  Right now it has had to be Grossman because at times he has had to do more than just DH which Vargas is not really able to do except play a little 1B, but unless Mauer is hurt then he doesn't really need to do that either.  Plus if all of the younger players continue to develop ie Buxton, Polanco, etc....  Some of the team K's may decrease in which case Vargas's K's then won't seem so hurtful and he may get better pitches due to guys like Polanco getting on base more often in front of him??  

 

Just some ideas, where the maturation of the team itself could lend a huge hand as far as Vargas getting more playing time.

[drivlikejehu]

 

Switch hitters with big time HR power are rare.

Vargas has, at times, shown he can hit with power from both sides, though usually not particularly well from both sides in the same season.

He has also, at times, shown discipline at the plate. Not consistently to be sure. More like in short spurts here and there. Last year, he drew 24 walks in 175 PA, a 13% BB rate. It has dipped considerably this year though. On the plus side, his K rate has improved quite a bit over last year, to a manageable 27%. That's considerably better than Sano FWIW.

I would have liked to have seen Vargas get a shot all season at the MLB level. He's a far more dangerous hitter than Grossman or Mauer, that is certain. Better? Iffy.

Like I said, switch hitting power hitters don't grow on trees. If Vargas can put it all together, he could be a monster. Can he? I think so.

 

It's really, really rare for someone to become a monster out of nowhere. Nothing in Vargas' track record points at that. Scouts have never thought that. He was never highly regarded, as an amateur, or prospect. He's 27 and has 800 PAs with an RC+ of 99. Hitters go on streaks . . . when Dozier is hot, he looks like a Hall of Famer. Is he? No. When Vargas is hot, he looks like an OK DH. He's not.

 

 

[Brandon Warne]

 

The Twins act like he can't field. However, they also have never tried to field him off of 1B, which seems a bit braindead, esp. after bending over backwards to fit Sano into the lineup in the past. At least try Vargas in the OF once while he is in the minors!

 

Sano is an infinitely better athlete, and actually has a bat worth shoehorning into the lineup. The Vargas-Sano comps are inapt other than that they're abnormally large non-white guys.

[howeda7]

 

Robbie Grossman has 2 at bats this season with runners on 2nd and 3rd with 2 outs. 

 

If you were curious in real stats; Grossman has hit .356/.500/.556 over 58 plate appearances in "High Leverage" situations

Way to strangle a metaphor with facts. Obviously that comment would apply to any situation where there's runners in scoring position and your DH is up there trying to draw a walk. The 'high leverage' stats are surprising but I'll take your word for it.

 

I have no issue with Grossman as a 4th OF'er to platoon with Kepler. He should never have been our primary DH and I certainly hope he isn't next year. And if he is in the line-up he should it 1st or 2nd, but that's a different issue.

[Doomtints]

 

Sano is an infinitely better athlete, and actually has a bat worth shoehorning into the lineup. The Vargas-Sano comps are inapt other than that they're abnormally large non-white guys.

 

I did not make a Sano/Vargas comp. I said they should try Vargas in the OF while he is in the minors, at least once, rather than throw their hands in the air and pretend they can't use him. Sano was used as an example of thinking outside the box by the team, not as a player comp.

[Brandon Warne]

 

I did not make a Sano/Vargas comp. I said they should try Vargas in the OF while he is in the minors, at least once, rather than throw their hands in the air and pretend they can't use him. Sano was used as an example of thinking outside the box by the team, not as a player comp.

 

Vargas would be a disaster in the outfield. Like literally unusable. Not only that, but the team doesn't need any more outfielders at that level. 

[yarnivek1972]

It's really, really rare for someone to become a monster out of nowhere. Nothing in Vargas' track record points at that. Scouts have never thought that. He was never highly regarded, as an amateur, or prospect. He's 27 and has 800 PAs with an RC+ of 99. Hitters go on streaks . . . when Dozier is hot, he looks like a Hall of Famer. Is he? No. When Vargas is hot, he looks like an OK DH. He's not.

Vargas has always had plus power. He has a minor league career ISO of .200 and it's right at that mark for his AAA career. I guess that's what I mean when I say "monster". I don't mean to suggest he's a potential all star. But if he can pull it all together, I could see Chili Davis type numbers. 20-25 HR, 75-85 RBI. He has to put it ALL together though. Discipline and power from both sides. Will he? Maybe. I suspect someone will give him the chance.

 

As I said at first, switch hitters with power are rare.

[Riverbrian]

I am repeating myself again but it's how I feel so... here I go again. 

 

I'm a Vargas Fan and I see the unrealized potential... I still hold out hope that he can put it together.

 

However... The Clock is Ticking. 

 

Last year I was upset and when he got benched in early August and sent down to AAA while he was OPS'ing 1,000 Plus in July. When a guy is going good... let him go good. That sending down was ridiculous at the time and I really want to blame someone for it but don't know who. 

 

This year... I feel that the Twins have given plenty of chances to establish himself and Kennys just didn't do it. 

 

He has the option so he was always going to be a candidate to be bounced around but I feel that is Kennys would performed well enough he wouldn't have been sent down. Bottom Line... Kennys got his chances and didn't grab the bull by the horns. 

 

Right now... the Twins needs someone who can perform like I think Kennys should. We need a guy who can hit a 3 run homer every once in awhile to add to the lineup. I'm hoping Kennys can be that guy and I haven't given up but I see the clock. 

 

 

[kab21]

Vargas has always shown enough to get another look but he has never shown enough to simply take the DH spot. And this continues to be the case. Will he always tease teams with that 25-30 HR potential that it certainly looks like he has? Or will he actually break out and hit 25+ HR with a .800+ OPS?

But can we leave SSS 'clutch stats' out of the argument? They are essentially meaningless.

[Richie the Rally Goat]

I am repeating myself again but it's how I feel so... here I go again.

 

I'm a Vargas Fan and I see the unrealized potential... I still hold out hope that he can put it together.

 

However... The Clock is Ticking.

 

Last year I was upset and when he got benched in early August and sent down to AAA while he was OPS'ing 1,000 Plus in July. When a guy is going good... let him go good. That sending down was ridiculous at the time and I really want to blame someone for it but don't know who.

 

This year... I feel that the Twins have given plenty of chances to establish himself and Kennys just didn't do it.

 

He has the option so he was always going to be a candidate to be bounced around but I feel that is Kennys would performed well enough he wouldn't have been sent down. Bottom Line... Kennys got his chances and didn't grab the bull by the horns.

 

Right now... the Twins needs someone who can perform like I think Kennys should. We need a guy who can hit a 3 run homer every once in awhile to add to the lineup. I'm hoping Kennys can be that guy and I haven't given up but I see the clock.

i wish TR had given KV more leash while he was OPSing 1,000 too. Not sure how much difference it would make, but maybe given the chance last August and September things would be different in '17.

 

On the other hand, how many chances does a guy get until you just accept that he's had some flukey hot streaks?

 

I do like the Dozier comp. Doziers bat plays up well at 2nd base. First, not so much. Now cut down on his walks and don't really have enough currency. I agree with Thrylos. In the days of 13 man pitching staffs, roster flexibility with position players is critical. Vargas is very position inflexible, I don't think that will change.

[bighat]

 

Will he always tease teams with that 25-30 HR potential that it certainly looks like he has? Or will he actually break out and hit 25+ HR with a .800+ OPS?

 

Problem is, he can't hit 30 HRs for the Twins if he plays 3/4 of the season in Rochester, NY. The Twins let other players (Polanco, Buxton) struggle and battle through LONG LONG LOOONNGG slumps, because they think those players have potential. For some reason, the Twins don't think Kennys has potential and thus they send him down every time he whiffs on a slider. 

 

Let's pretend the Twins don't have Grossman. Kennys plays 5 games per week all year long at DH and spells Mauer at 1B every once in a while. I think he hits 28-35 HR over the course of the year in that situation. 

 

If the Twins eventually move on from Kennys, I think a team like San Diego picks him up, plays him every day at 1B and he hits 32 dongs. 

 

I'd certainly rather roll the dice on Vargas playing every day and see what he can do. We know what Grossman gives us and I think we shouldn't feel sheepish about asking for more out of our DH.

[DocBauer]

I have to agree with Brian. Also a fan of Vargas and believer. Also think he got jerked around in 2016 and wasn't afforded the right opportunity, especially when he was playing well and producing.

 

The potential is still there. But is it too late now? I'm sure riding the shuttle has to be frustrating for him. But there is just no consistency, this year at least, at either level to truly indicate what's he's capable of or how great of a chance he has "earned".

 

That being said, boy would I love to see him take off the next 6 weeks.