Article: Playoffs Or Bust?: Molitor's Murky Future

[chpettit19]

 

This is not only a different context, it’s a different discussion.  The number of direct reports is completely irrelevant to the question of … Is the Minnesota Twins Organization more like a small business or a large / high profile business.   If I manage a small group at Exxon, is that like a small business.  Perhaps you meant to make a different point but the size of the group managed is simply not relevant to the stature or type of business.

It's not a different context. We're not talking about running the Minnesota Twins Organization. We're talking about managing the team on the field. And yes, if your job is to manage a small group at Exxon it is like a small business. The CEO of Exxon doesn't expect you to do anything other than manage that small group. This thread is discussing the manager of a baseball team. That individual is responsible for 25 players and a number of coaches. So 30-40 people. That's his only job. That's more reflective of running a small business than running a corporation. In a small business you're trying to maximize profits and when managing a team you're doing the same thing, only the profits are wins not money. You job is to put the people under you in the best position possible to succeed at their jobs so the unit as a whole can produce results.

[jun]

I think Molitor will not be back next season after the evaluation.

[Otto von Ballpark]

Another really...questionable job of managing a bullpen tonight. Pulls Busenitz to let Boshers face two LHers (which I can understand), then after Boshers retires neither of the LHers, lets Boshers give up a 3 run jack to a RH hitter.

 

Terrible. If you're pulling Busenitz to get through the inning, then there is no way Boshers faces a RH hitter with 2 on.

 

No. Way.

Maybe it's Buxton's fault for not pulling that ball down too.

[Geneb]

Has anyone noticed the Twins awful pitching plan. Going back to the last four-game series against the Indians, this will mark seven games against the pre-season favorite without Santana or Berrios. Spotting the the top teams seven games is a hard way to win.

[Mike Sixel]

 

There is no mean for 1-run games win % to regress towards.  It is not BABIP, HR/FB, or LOB%

 

Good teams win close games.  Bad teams lose them.  That's that.  No regression.

 

that's not even close to true, actually. There are plenty of studies on this on the internet. 1 run games are fairly random, not totally, but closer than your statement implies.

[old nurse]

 

Another really...questionable job of managing a bullpen tonight.  Pulls Busenitz to let Boshers face two LHers (which I can understand), then after Boshers retires neither of the LHers, lets Boshers give up a 3 run jack to a RH hitter.

 

Terrible.  If you're pulling Busenitz to get through the inning, then there is no way Boshers faces a RH hitter with 2 on.  

 

No. Way.  

Boshers did not surrender a lead, moot point.

[Mike Sixel]

 

Boshers did not surrender a lead, moot point.

 

how is that a moot point? 

[wsnydes]

 

Boshers did not surrender a lead, moot point.

A relievers job is also to keep the team in the game and/or minimize damage.  He certainly didn't accomplish either of those things.  

Edited August 16, 2017 by wsnydes

[Major League Ready]

 

It's not a different context. We're not talking about running the Minnesota Twins Organization. We're talking about managing the team on the field. And yes, if your job is to manage a small group at Exxon it is like a small business. The CEO of Exxon doesn't expect you to do anything other than manage that small group. This thread is discussing the manager of a baseball team. That individual is responsible for 25 players and a number of coaches. So 30-40 people. That's his only job. That's more reflective of running a small business than running a corporation. In a small business you're trying to maximize profits and when managing a team you're doing the same thing, only the profits are wins not money. You job is to put the people under you in the best position possible to succeed at their jobs so the unit as a whole can produce results.

 

I will have to say that there is a certain element that should be a familiar approach in terms of management style.  However, what do we hear all of the time from athletes and sports executives ... It's a business.  Players go wherever they can make the most money and fame.  We also don't release family members.  At least, not with the same ambivalence as we do athletes. 

 

So, we agree to some extent.  However, in terms of the general premise here. We will have to agree to disagree.  The number of direct reports has no relevance to this discussion in my experience.   I have had full P&L responsibility for businesses of various sizes (up to $1B) and provided consulting services for roughly 100+ organizations.  Management practices, and expectations, change the bigger numbers and the greater exposure.  IMO, this perspective is a product of the love of the game as opposed to experience.

Edited August 16, 2017 by Major Leauge Ready

[old nurse]

 

A relievers job is also to keep the team in the game and/or minimize damage.  He certainly didn't accomplish either of those things.  

How many relievers have an ERA of 0? Every manager is worthless because no reliever has an ERA of 0

[jimbo92107]

In 1986 Tom Kelly managed the worst team in the major leagues. Why wasn't he fired? For shame! ;-)

[yarnivek1972]

How many relievers have an ERA of 0? Every manager is worthless because no reliever has an ERA of 0

Hyperbole much?

 

The enormous mistake Molitor made was allowing Boshers to face Jackson in a close game, after he had already failed to retire a lefty and a switch hitter. The outcome of the Jackson at bat with Boshers pitching was extremely predictable. If Molitor already thought the game was lost by the 7th, he would have let Busenitz finish the inning.

[wsnydes]

 

How many relievers have an ERA of 0? Every manager is worthless because no reliever has an ERA of 0

Molitor's job is to put his players in a position to succeed.  Boshers facing a RH batter was not putting his player in a position to succeed and not in the best interest of trying to win a game.  What was a manageable two run deficit became a five run deficit because of that.  That's poor managing.

[old nurse]

 

Molitor's job is to put his players in a position to succeed.  Boshers facing a RH batter was not putting his player in a position to succeed and not in the best interest of trying to win a game.  What was a manageable two run deficit became a five run deficit because of that.  That's poor managing.

 

 

Hyperbole much?

The enormous mistake Molitor made was allowing Boshers to face Jackson in a close game, after he had already failed to retire a lefty and a switch hitter. The outcome of the Jackson at bat with Boshers pitching was extremely predictable. If Molitor already thought the game was lost by the 7th, he would have let Busenitz finish the inning.

There in no hperbole on my part, the other guy is the one who demanded perfection. I merely pointed out what was not obvious.

There is nothing saying that Busenits would have fared any different than Boshers. Jay Bruce is hitting well, Carlos Santana, At 20 pitches Busenitz  would still be able to pitch the next day when needed (Gibson)   Had Busenitz  let in a run the complaints would be along the lines of Molitor leaving him out there too long. Either way the point is moot. The Twins were batting feebly  12 K, no bb, 6 0 fers

[Mr. Brooks]

There in no hperbole on my part, the other guy is the one who demanded perfection. I merely pointed out what was not obvious.

There is nothing saying that Busenits would have fared any different than Boshers. Jay Bruce is hitting well, Carlos Santana, At 20 pitches Busenitz would still be able to pitch the next day when needed (Gibson) Had Busenitz let in a run the complaints would be along the lines of Molitor leaving him out there too long. Either way the point is moot. The Twins were batting feebly 12 K, no bb, 6 0 fers

I don't think anyone has a problem with Boshers relieving Busenitz.

I think the problem people have is letting him stay in to face the righty, after allowing both lefties to reach.

 

Also, is it possible you misread something nurse? I've read the post you quoted a few times now, and I'm struggling to find where he demanded perfection.

[peterb18]

All professional teams take on the personality of their manager/head coach, IMHO. No doubt Molitor is a true Hall of Famer, an all around terrific player, but I don't see his players play with a lot of intensity. Again, just my opinion.

I'm sure it's difficult to succeed in a small market where money and attraction of free agents is difficult. All of us second guess all the managers, and when your team wins everyone is a genius. Molly failed as a hitting coach for Seattle, and very few humans have as much knowledge of hitting than him. So go figure.

In the end, I'd like to see the new regime have the say on "their" manager. Personally, I'm a big fan of Dougie Baseball- a guy who has seen many of the current players on the way through the system, and someone who relates to the younger players.

We are not a small market team.....we are a mid-market team. I think we are somewhere in the 12th rated tv market.

[mcrellin]

 

If as some suggest managers have such little impact on the game, then almost all managerial changes, and salaries, are without justification. This also means that myself, or heaven forbid anyone else on TD would have virtually the same success with a roster in the AL Central as Molitor has? With the exception of myself, I doubt that is true! :). I have never thought managers make players better. That's not that easy, and the extent is limited by the players ability, nature, and work ethic. I don't think a manager can cause a team to perform way over its head. If that was so, hot streaks would remain hot, since the manager was a constant. They don't. I think a managers best quality is allowing players to be their best. To put them in positions that their talents are best suited for, and get out of the way. Talent usually wins, but an over thinking and impulsive manager can negate that fact. And so does playing the "hot hand". What you may gain by that philosophy is lost during the regression to the mean, and the ill will of the player who lost his spot to someone less talented on a fluky streak.

I agree, that's Basic Management 101.  Let players know what their role is.  Put players in positions where they are most likely to succeed.  Be consistent, players do better knowing their role, position in the batting order, etc.  Molitor's constant experimentation with line-ups, relief pitching assignments, is self-defeating.  The best managers play the "long game" with their teams as much as possible.

[Kwak]

 

It's not a different context. We're not talking about running the Minnesota Twins Organization. We're talking about managing the team on the field. And yes, if your job is to manage a small group at Exxon it is like a small business. The CEO of Exxon doesn't expect you to do anything other than manage that small group. This thread is discussing the manager of a baseball team. That individual is responsible for 25 players and a number of coaches. So 30-40 people. That's his only job. That's more reflective of running a small business than running a corporation. In a small business you're trying to maximize profits and when managing a team you're doing the same thing, only the profits are wins not money. You job is to put the people under you in the best position possible to succeed at their jobs so the unit as a whole can produce results.

 The manager's job is to be the face of management.  He reflects the team's philosophy, character, and personality.  Can/does Molitor carry said values and lead the players to carry them out?  How "in touch" is Molitor with the players (and they with him)?  Is this the making of the planned "team of the future"?--or is the 2017 simply a transition from the past?  If this is merely a "transition team" then Molitor's tenure is near it's end and is ready to be replaced by the "new".  IMO, to replace Molitor with an "in-house" guy indicates that change was never intended--simply the appearance of change was the plan.  I hope that that was not the plan.

[The Wise One]

I think that Molitor will be judged on how he develops players. He has quite a few to work with. Playoffs would be nice. Feeling like you have a stud starting outfield,  2 young reliable starters and some confidence in Busenitzs, Duffey,  Hildenberger, Pressly and Rodgers as a bullpen would ensure him a job.

[Platoon]

Boshers did not surrender a lead, moot point.

Once Molitor pulled Busenitz, which he should not have, he was on a roll with no one on base, then he was committed to another change if Buddy Bombed! He made two pitching decisions in 10 minutes, using two completely different principles. Unless of course he actually stuck to his core principle: Always use a mediocre vet, over a talented younger player.

[Otto von Ballpark]

The decision to leave Boshers in was even more curious, given the commonly known weather forecast for the next day. Not that he should have ridden his bullpen too hard Tuesday, but it probably wasn't the time to squeeze more PA from Boshers either.

Edited August 17, 2017 by spycake

[wsnydes]

 

There in no hperbole on my part, the other guy is the one who demanded perfection. I merely pointed out what was not obvious.

There is nothing saying that Busenits would have fared any different than Boshers. Jay Bruce is hitting well, Carlos Santana, At 20 pitches Busenitz  would still be able to pitch the next day when needed (Gibson)   Had Busenitz  let in a run the complaints would be along the lines of Molitor leaving him out there too long. Either way the point is moot. The Twins were batting feebly  12 K, no bb, 6 0 fers

But you don't know that the bats are going to continue to be feeble in their last three at bats.  Yeah, you know that now but Molitor has to manage in the now and without the benefit of hindsight or a crystal ball.  He's got to do what he needs to in order to keep his team in the game.  So no, none of this is a moot point.

[nicksaviking]

 

Boshers did not surrender a lead, moot point.

 

So if the team ever gets behind they should just waive the white flag and quit? Game over, no need to continue?

[USAFChief]

The decision to leave Boshers in was even more curious, given the commonly known weather forecast for the next day. Not that he should have ridden his bullpen too hard Tuesday, but it probably wasn't the time to squeeze more PA from Boshers either.

And he ended up using Pressly anyway.

 

Only it was in an 8-1 game, in the 9th, instead of a 3-1 game, in the 7th.

[old nurse]

 

I don't think anyone has a problem with Boshers relieving Busenitz.
I think the problem people have is letting him stay in to face the righty, after allowing both lefties to reach.

Also, is it possible you misread something nurse? I've read the post you quoted a few times now, and I'm struggling to find where he demanded perfection.

If you do not think anyone on this thread had no problems  I would ask that you reread the thread.

[Mike Sixel]

He really bungled the loogy again today.

[old nurse]

 

Once Molitor pulled Busenitz, which he should not have, he was on a roll with no one on base, then he was committed to another change if Buddy Bombed! He made two pitching decisions in 10 minutes, using two completely different principles. Unless of course he actually stuck to his core principle: Always use a mediocre vet, over a talented younger player.

I am not sure what Molitor's core principles are. Perhaps you can PM me a reliable source for that position.  Boshers may be older but at 81 IP in major league ball  I wouldn't call him a veteran. In pitching mostly low leverage situation I would  think they are still trying to develop him.

[old nurse]

 

But you don't know that the bats are going to continue to be feeble in their last three at bats.  Yeah, you know that now but Molitor has to manage in the now and without the benefit of hindsight or a crystal ball.  He's got to do what he needs to in order to keep his team in the game.  So no, none of this is a moot point.

Yup I knew that my statement  was based on information after the fact.  as are the complaints about the pitching.

[old nurse]

 

So if the team ever gets behind they should just waive the white flag and quit? Game over, no need to continue?

The people here can set up all of the no win scenarios they want on Molitor.   At time when behind Molitor uses his lower leverage relievers about 20 pitches each sort of like a bullpen session.  The complainers here have yet to post who was warmed up in the bullpen in the event that Boshers did not get 1 of 2 lefthand hitters out. 

[yarnivek1972]

The people here can set up all of the no win scenarios they want on Molitor. At time when behind Molitor uses his lower leverage relievers about 20 pitches each sort of like a bullpen session. The complainers here have yet to post who was warmed up in the bullpen in the event that Boshers did not get 1 of 2 lefthand hitters out.

Isn't it Molitor's job to make sure someone is ready if that scenario plays out?