Article: Twins Trade Kintzler To Nationals

[DocBauer]

Can we all remember that the beginning-of-the-season O/U wins total was 74? That they will easily meet that expectation while strengthening their minor league system through the draft, trades and international signings, means that the Twins' season must be considered a modest success.Goals for the remainder of the season should include:1. using the "found" half-million wisely,2. Trying out as many minor-leaguers as possible, and, most importantly,3. Finishing their one-year "top to bottom review" of the organization.

 

Love this post!

 

Am I a bit disappointed in some moves the FO didn't make before the season began? Absolutely! Did I think the Twins were really as bad as 103 losses last season? No. Did I predict a legitimate shot at .500 before the season began? Absolutely.

 

But for a second, put yourself in the shoes of Falvey and Levine. You are put in charge of a team that DID lose 103 games the previous season, wasn't expected to contend in 2017, and you have to begin evaluations of EVERYONE and EVERYTHING on the scene and behind the scenes. And you have about 3 months to begin this process before ST begins. So 2017 looks like a real surprise! But you are STILL in this evaluation from the top down. You kick a few guys to the curb, you promote a few guys and play with the roster here and there. But do you really want to trade prospects you aren't totally familiar with to augment this team when you are still beginning your top down process? But you try a few things.

 

The end of July comes, and while you have a fun and competitive team, there just isn't enough there to make a run. And you don't want to sell of potential assets that you are just getting to really know. So what do you do? You make moves to deepen your system and your options going forward. You have time and money to make moves in the off season, FA or trade, and have collected more milb talent for trades, or to offset prospects you include in trades.

 

I want the Twins to win and build this organization to maintain winning in the worst way. But i just cant dislike flipping FA for some solid prospects that seem to be on the rise. And for me, whats really important, is we kept Santana to fill a SP slot for 2018. One big move, Berrios, Santana and Mejia is a solid start. Now I get the next 2 months to continue various auditions in the rotation and pen while looking at 2018.

 

Am I 100% sold on everything done and not done since this new tandem took over? No. Am I disappointed the team has begun to fade somewhat and simply looks like it couldn't maintain contention status to some degree? Absolutely. But I see something building here. I see a method to the madness here. I can absolutely see promotions/auditions, a couple smart FA signings and/or trades making this team a contender for 2018.

[LeatherAntenna]

Kintzler himself already suggested it was a possibility, so obviously he doesn't share your sentiment. I also doubt he's too upset about getting to leap from a non-playoff team to a World Series contender where he can showcase himself for the only significant free agent contract he'll ever get.

Isn't that just a politeness comment? I really doubt he means, "If you guys want me back, I don't care if 29 other teams outbid you, I'm yours.' Of course he's not upset being dealt, why in the world would he be? He just left a team that is adrift out on a rocking lifeboat bobing around listlessly with out enough food and water for everyone (the fans) to make it back to shore. The only significant contract he'll ever get? That remains to be seen.

[AlwaysinModeration]

Agree 100% (except the use of the phrase "secret sauce" which I dislike).

Apologies. I also dislike the phrase and am sorry I used it. It's on par with "let's unpack this."

[Brock Beauchamp]

Here's something to ponder...or as many of our game thread intro's say: "here's something to think about"...) Did anyone ever really feel comfortable with Brandon closing? He was never a Rick Aguilera, Joe Nathan type guy. Was he a dominate type of closer? Not really.

 

Keeping Kintzler statistically, long term, was not going to work out well. I think the Twins brain trust knew this and decided it was a great time to dump him and pick up some long-term potential.

 

I do agree that Falvey and company have shown their hand and bailed on a potential playoff run. As a fan its very disappointing. From a business perspective I think it was shrewd.

Absolutely. I don't think this is brought up enough, really. I was fine with Kintzler closing and also fine if he would accept a 2/$14m deal but he's not the perfect closer. He's a guy who has gotten the job done but he's not working with much margin for error. A loss of feel and/or velocity and he's cooked.

[Brock Beauchamp]

The Twins traded Eduardo Nunez last year and got a guy who was MLB ready. The guy (Mejia) has been a work in progress this season but he's been at the very least a decent back end pitcher, this his rookie season. He is just 24 years old.

 

Will any of the prospects we received for Garcia and Kintzler be playing at Mejia's level by this time next season? Enns is 26 and at this point will be lucky to have a journeyman career. What about the rest of the dudes we acquired? Will any of them be "next year's Mejia"? Will Littell win 10 games in a Twins MLB uniform next year? Will Watson? If not, then what the heck were the Twins thinking? We've been "waiting 2 more years" forever and they keep pushing the end-date for this rebuild back.

Except it's highly unlikely the Twins will win this season and both guys they traded are free agents after the season. I simply don't see much downside here.

[jun]

I think Kintzler is a better pitcher than Capps. Twins should have asked for more. Nationals might not be a good partner to do business with.

[Taildragger8791]

 

Isn't that just a politeness comment? I really doubt he means, "If you guys want me back, I don't care if 29 other teams outbid you, I'm yours.' Of course he's not upset being dealt, why in the world would he be? He just left a team that is adrift out on a rocking lifeboat bobing around listlessly with out enough food and water for everyone (the fans) to make it back to shore. The only significant contract he'll ever get? That remains to be seen.

 

It may be, it may not be. But I don't see any reason for hard feelings and I'm not sure why you're suggesting there is.

 

Nobody is talking about him taking a discount to come back here either, so you can drop that argument. If the Twins put in a competitive offer and he enjoyed his time here, which his comments suggest, then they have a shot to get him back. And if not then he was probably going to walk at the end of the year anyways and we're in the exact same position we are now, with no Kintzler on the 2018 roster. Except now we have one more lotto ticket in the system.

 

Edit: And I say "the only significant contract he'll ever get" because he turns 33 tomorrow and has had a pretty unconventional career path to date. He's not going to be getting any multi-year deals when he's 36+.

Edited August 1, 2017 by Taildragger8791

[alarp33]

 

I think Kintzler is a better pitcher than Capps. Twins should have asked for more. Nationals might not be a good partner to do business with.

 

This is a very odd way to evaluate a trade, but I'll just state the obvious. Matt Capps was not a free agent 2 months after the Twins acquired him. They traded for 2 months + 1 year

[Old Twins Cap]

 

This is a very odd way to evaluate a trade, but I'll just state the obvious. Matt Capps was not a free agent 2 months after the Twins acquired him. They traded for 2 months + 1 year

 

The point is, they traded a rock solid young, controllable catcher, that everyone knew was a stud, for a zipless RH reliever that made Ron Davis look like an All-Star.

 

Because,... the media wanted a "closer".

[LeatherAntenna]

It may be, it may not be. But I don't see any reason for hard feelings and I'm not sure why you're suggesting there is.

 

Nobody is talking about him taking a discount to come back here either, so you can drop that argument. If the Twins put in a competitive offer and he enjoyed his time here, which his comments suggest, then they have a shot to get him back. And if not then he was probably going to walk at the end of the year anyways and we're in the exact same position we are now, with no Kintzler on the 2018 roster. Except now we have one more lotto ticket in the system.

 

Edit: And I say "the only significant contract he'll ever get" because he turns 33 tomorrow and has had a pretty unconventional career path to date. He's not going to be getting any multi-year deals when he's 36+.

get your comment, my comment about his resigning is if he has a good playoff run and commands more on a new contract his deal was wasted today(Watson or who ever) and if he ends up more expensive next year than keeping him today may have been a better choice. As for how old he is, I didn't realize his age, you are right this may be his only big contract time at his age.

[Brock Beauchamp]

The point is, they traded a rock solid young, controllable catcher, that everyone knew was a stud, for a zipless RH reliever that made Ron Davis look like an All-Star.

 

Because,... the media wanted a "closer".

What I take away from this is that the Twins should trade "closers" whenever possible because they're mostly fungible. A good reliever somehow becomes more valuable when he pitches the ninth so exploit that.

[iastfan112]

 

The Twins traded Eduardo Nunez last year and got a guy who was MLB ready. The guy (Mejia) has been a work in progress this season but he's been at the very least a decent back end pitcher, this his rookie season. He is just 24 years old.

 

Will any of the prospects we received for Garcia and Kintzler be playing at Mejia's level by this time next season? Enns is 26 and at this point will be lucky to have a journeyman career. What about the rest of the dudes we acquired? Will any of them be "next year's Mejia"? Will Littell win 10 games in a Twins MLB uniform next year? Will Watson? If not, then what the heck were the Twins thinking? We've been "waiting 2 more years" forever and they keep pushing the end-date for this rebuild back.

Littell is pitching significant better at AA as Mejia was at the same age. I'll take waiting an extra year in favor of the higher upside. Think you're underrating Enns as well. He's definitely the throw in but he's pitched well at every level and does a decent job at missing bats. I'm betting he contributes next year.

[Mr. Brooks]

get your comment, my comment about his resigning is if he has a good playoff run and commands more on a new contract his deal was wasted today(Watson or who ever) and if he ends up more expensive next year than keeping him today may have been a better choice. As for how old he is, I didn't realize his age, you are right this may be his only big contract time at his age.

I highly doubt that anything Kintzler does in such a small sample size as the playoffs is going to make him THAT much more expensive after the season.

Maybe if he's lights out he costs 500k to 1 million more over the life of the deal. That's not scaring anyone away.

[DocBauer]

Except it's highly unlikely the Twins will win this season and both guys they traded are free agents after the season. I simply don't see much downside here.

 

Agreed.

 

Not opposed to bringing Kintzler back in a role. I seriously doubt he gets a big money offer. If he does, bless him and move on. And I argued just recently Garcia could pitch well for 2 months, enjoy his stay here, and be offered to re-sign. And it could still happen. But the fact is, both guys were going to be FA. Murphy didn't fit in with the Twins, and things simply didn't work out for him here. Hey...it happens. Any future success he may have shouldn't indict the Twins going forward.

 

But we moved a pair of impending FA, one a possible/probable rental player and a guy we picked up on the scrap heap for nothing, (No disrespect, just truth, I like Kintzler), and a catcher who just couldn't find it with the Twins and didn't seem to fit for:

 

1] A smallish LH pitcher with some nice secondary stuff dominating AA and could be an interesting bullpen piece, maybe soon.

 

2] A tall, strapping LHSP who is only 20 in A ball, hits low 90's, gets SO, decent control and has projectability.

 

3] A RHSP with a 4 pitch mix who did well in A+ ball before moving to AA where he has been even better with higher SO numbers.

 

4] A 26yo LHSP, who missed a season due to TJ surgery if no have my facts straight, who is performing quite well at AAA who offers, at least, depth and maybe a quality pen arm.

 

I want to hate these moves because our surprising Twins didn't have enough pieces, or added pieces, to keep alive a wild card dream. But when I step back and look at reality, and see these moves in full context, I can't hate them, and even like them.

 

Hopefully, Belisle and Giminez can be moved for a couple solid A prospects, one of which I hope will be a catcher.

[D.C Twins]

It is OK to build toward 2019 and beyond.... The build is just as fun as the payoff.....1982-1987 was a fun and intersting to watch the nucleus mature and then have pieces added at the right time (with a  little luck mixed in which all WS teams need at some point) .  

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

Agreed. Not opposed to bringing Kintzler back in a role. I seriously doubt he gets a big money offer. If he does, bless him and move on. And I argued just recently Garcia could pitch well for 2 months, enjoy his stay here, and be offered to re-sign. And it could still happen. But the fact is, both guys were going to be FA. Murphy didn't fit in with the Twins, and things simply didn't work out for him here. Hey...it happens. Any future success he may have shouldn't indict the Twins going forward. But we moved a pair of impending FA, one a possible/probable rental player and a guy we picked up on the scrap heap for nothing, (No disrespect, just truth, I like Kintzler), and a catcher who just couldn't find it with the Twins and didn't seem to fit for: 1] A smallish LH pitcher with some nice secondary stuff dominating AA and could be an interesting bullpen piece, maybe soon. 2] A tall, strapping LHSP who is only 20 in A ball, hits low 90's, gets SO, decent control and has projectability. 3] A RHSP with a 4 pitch mix who did well in A+ ball before moving to AA where he has been even better with higher SO numbers. 4] A 26yo LHSP, who missed a season due to TJ surgery if no have my facts straight, who is performing quite well at AAA who offers, at least, depth and maybe a quality pen arm. I want to hate these moves because our surprising Twins didn't have enough pieces, or added pieces, to keep alive a wild card dream. But when I step back and look at reality, and see these moves in full context, I can't hate them, and even like them. Hopefully, Belisle and Giminez can be moved for a couple solid A prospects, one of which I hope will be a catcher.

Yep. If just one of those guys contributes 3 career WAR for the Twins, it's a win.

 

It's such a low bar to set that I don't understand why people are upset. After seeing Cleveland go on a run, does anyone legitimately expect this team to catch them? Or even the Wild Card, after the Yankees picked up Gray?

 

This was a fun half season. The Twins are still building but have a solid core. This was the right decision.

 

Teams rarely go from 59 wins to the postseason. The Twins are taking their lumps and should end up between 75-82 wins on the season. The front office is acting accordingly and rolling with the punches that a young team delivers.

[twinstalker]

 

I am disappointed to get a low-A pitcher. Dealing one of the best relievers on the market for a guy who is years away? The Twins couldn't have done better dealing Kintzler to another team? A lot of things have to go right for Watson to make an impact. Think the Twins could have done better. I do like that half a mill in cash, though.

I haven't read to see if someone's responded to this, but consider the logic for a moment.  First, the low A guy is now on your team for a year or two before you have to place him on your 40 man roster.  In essence, the cost to keep this relatively valuable commodity is free.

 

Whether you trade Kintzler or not, his 40 man spot opens up.  Over the winter you get the chance to fill this spot the way you want to fill this spot.  That may be through free agency or as part of a different trade.

 

Whatever the Twins do to fill that spot, they could not have gotten Watson to keep for free if they had traded for a good young player with lots of upside.   That's obvious.  Now find me a team that will deal a good young player with lots of upside for Kintzler.  It ain't happening.

 

Hey, here's something you can do, if you want.  You can get both Watson and Kintzler for the cost of Kintzler by paying for Kintzler in free agency.  But my bet is that when Kintzler becomes available the Twins will look elsewhere with their money.

 

In other words, the best play to make here that is something another team would actually do is to trade Kintzler for a far away prospect.

[sampleSizeOfOne]

I don't think this marks the rest of the season as phoning it in.

 

What's the point of having dominent outfield defense if the excelent pitching doesn't let them get as much work in?

 

Maybe i will be busy enough i miss much of this excitement, but i hope both our offence and defence get used to supporting mediocre pitching so that good pitching will make it look easy... Or something like that.

[twinstalker]

 

The Twins traded Eduardo Nunez last year and got a guy who was MLB ready. The guy (Mejia) has been a work in progress this season but he's been at the very least a decent back end pitcher, this his rookie season. He is just 24 years old.

 

Will any of the prospects we received for Garcia and Kintzler be playing at Mejia's level by this time next season? Enns is 26 and at this point will be lucky to have a journeyman career. What about the rest of the dudes we acquired? Will any of them be "next year's Mejia"? Will Littell win 10 games in a Twins MLB uniform next year? Will Watson? If not, then what the heck were the Twins thinking? We've been "waiting 2 more years" forever and they keep pushing the end-date for this rebuild back.

I'm very afraid of being put on double-secret probation for what I might say here,   I'll start with this: do you know who traded Mejia to the Twins?  Does he value his farm system (in trades) the same way other GMs do?  Does he overpay compared to other GMs?  And finally, was his team a possible trading partner this season?

 

Also, how good is Mejia?  Is he that much better than Littel?  Any better?  All I know is that the Twins won't have to use a 40-man spot to find out yet, and they can use it on someone they know is ready (Gonsalves, Enns, free agent) while not having to start Littel and Watson's clock.

 

And even though I don't think Mejia is necessarily where he needs to be, are you telling me you had confidence in Mejia at this time last year?  Last year, instead of spending $4 million for two guys (Littel and Watson) who are free to keep in the system and two more who may be immediately helpful, they gave up Nunez (who's opportunity cost could have landed a Littel) and Alex Meyer for someone (Mejia) no better than Meyer and a guy just like Enns (Busenitz).

[gil4]

 

Glass half full: the Twins made it fun to watch for four months.

Glass half empty: they teased us with unsustainable hope for four months.

 

It was better than being out of contention in April like they were last year.  

[Monkeypaws]

Probably a better plan than "DRAFT ALL RELIEVERS!"

 

This post reads like a Norm MacDonald punchline.

[Platoon]

The trade was made with what's happened in July in mind, not what might have happened last off season. Adding two mid level relievers would not have made this team a contender. The SP simply would not allow that. Throw in an offense that I still think has not matured, and lack of a lynchpin SS and you really aren't a contender. Relying on some other teams slow start to a season to chase a second WC slot is not the groundwork for a solid orginisation. We traded away two very mid level pitchers from a team that is not yet ready to play with the big boys. And since Kintlzler is a FA, we can resign him in the off season if we want to pony up the cash.

[bird]

 

I asked the same question-- apparently its 2017 money and (also apparently) there are a couple of 15 year olds (yes, 15 year olds) who will soon turn 16 that the Twins are interested in.

 

Yeah, I think the IFA signing period starts on July 2 and runs for a year, with only those prospects who had reached the qualifying age eligible to be signed immediately. Having some dry powder to go after one or two more promising prospects might be huge, especially this hunting season, although we'll probably have a hard time figuring out how they applied the money out there.

 

I really like the Kintzler trade, enough maybe to forgive Falvine for pulling a Ryan over the winter regarding the bullpen. In addition to the IFA opportunity(ies), I'm not so sure we're appreciating this Tyler Watson piece enough. My guy Sickles described him in fairly glowing terms pre-season as "a highly intriguing prospect with breakthrough potential." Despite "only" giving him a Felix Jorge-like C+ grade, he gave Watson his Sleeper Alert label, and it looks as if he's spot on in his assessment. So, the guy's stock should be on the rise somewhat, and he already ranked #14 in the National's system despite being 3 years away. So yes, he'll probably wash out at AAA like most guys who are described in glowing term like this, but maybe he's an outlier. As an aside I wonder if the board isn't a bit under-appreciative as well of both Littell and Moya.

 

And remember, these two gets are for Kintzler, and I'm with thrylos here in viewing Kintzler's real value as that of a rental setup guy. Losing him won't detract much from my enjoyment of watching this team play, and I'm not of the belief that the quality of ball we're going to see the remainder of the season has just taken a nosedive with the subtractions of Garcia and Kintzler. I don't know who it's gonna be, but I'm not anticipating this big drop-off. Maybe Busenitz, Curtiss, Reed, Gee, Slegers come up and plug in much like Hildenberger has done this year.

Edited August 1, 2017 by birdwatcher

[bighat]

 

Except it's highly unlikely the Twins will win this season and both guys they traded are free agents after the season. I simply don't see much downside here.

 

Good point about Garcia and Kintzler being free agents after the season.

[ThejacKmp]

 

It would be extremely unlikely, but crazier things have happened in baseball. I'll still watch some games the rest of the way. Today just feels like a step back for watching competitive baseball. 

 

I'd get this if they'd moved Santana and Dozier -- that would really be giving up. But this was Kintzler and a guy who was on the team a week. Kintzler was due for some regression so we'll get up some MILB relievers who might be better anyways. I'm excited to have a Gonsalves or Jorge appearance down the stretch too - that might be better than Garcia and Gibby hasn't been terrible lately so maybe he can bridge that.

 

I like that they didn't blow the whole thing up. They got some nice pieces for next year but this team still has a not-negligible chance for the playoffs. we got out of the hard part of our schedule. We still have 7 with the Royals and 6 with the Cleveland ball club. If they can win 9 of those, they have a good shot to get back in this.

[Blackjack]

 

That Levine wiggling his nose like Samantha Stevens?

 

Your dating yourseld, old nurse.   I wonder how many people on TD know who Samantha Stevens is??

[Blackjack]

 

Kintzler himself already suggested it was a possibility, so obviously he doesn't share your sentiment. I also doubt he's too upset about getting to leap from a non-playoff team to a World Series contender where he can showcase himself for the only significant free agent contract he'll ever get.

He'll probably sign for only $5 million a year, I wonder if he'll be able to feed his family on that??

[Otto von Ballpark]

While I see nothing wrong with these trades in a vacuum, and actually see some things to like, I share John's and Chief's concern about the context.

 

People excuse the Kintzler deal because we've fallen back in the race over the last week and he's a FA in 2 months -- but if we had invested in a real reliever last offseason, as was blindingly obvious to everyone, it is quite possible that we wouldn't have fallen this far back in the race.

 

And many consider the Garcia sequence to be especially good deals, and I admire the nimble pivot in a way, but wouldn't it have been better to get Garcia last winter? Then we could have had the benefits of his pitching for 4 months, plus the potential for getting Littell if we had still been out of the race today. Given how their performance and/or health in 2016, it was pretty inexcusable that we were asked to rely on Santiago, Gibson, Hughes, and even May to the extent that we have in the 2017 rotation. And please don't hold the encouraging seasons of Berrios and Mejia as hostage here -- there was plenty of room for a skilled front office to shorten the leashes of the suspect vets over the untested/improving youth. Not to mention the starts we've flushed with Turley, Jorge, etc.

 

Yes, we came off a 103 loss season, although many considered it more like a 70 win season with a bonehead decision (Sano to RF) plus some bad luck. Even so, a 103 loss season is not an excuse to rely on all of the same rotation and bullpen suspects for yet another season. And while a new FO will have adjustment/evaluation periods in certain situations and levels, these areas of weakness on the MLB roster don't seem to have warranted complete inactivity. It shouldn't have required a veteran front office to add Holland instead of Breslow and Haley, or to add Garcia in anticipation of continued problems from Hughes, Gibson, Santiago, and May.

 

While I suppose there wasn't much else to do by the time we got to July 31, and the day in isolation went pretty well for us, it highlights a lot of the concerns we've had about the front office for the months leading up to that day. Far bigger than yesterday's trade "successes" will be the upcoming offseason, when action will be required and the suspect excuses of 103 losses / new FO will no longer be applicable (if they ever were).

[Platoon]

Your dating yourseld, old nurse.   I wonder how many people on TD know who Samantha Stevens is??

Chief?

[USAFChief]

 

While I see nothing wrong with these trades in a vacuum, and actually see some things to like, I share John's and Chief's concern about the context.

People excuse the Kintzler deal because we've fallen back in the race over the last week and he's a FA in 2 months -- but if we had invested in a real reliever last offseason, as was blindingly obvious to everyone, it is quite possible that we wouldn't have fallen this far back in the race.

And many consider the Garcia sequence to be especially good deals, and I admire the nimble pivot in a way, but wouldn't it have been better to get Garcia last winter? Then we could have had the benefits of his pitching for 4 months, plus the potential for getting Littell if we had still been out of the race today. Given how their performance and/or health in 2016, it was pretty inexcusable that we were asked to rely on Santiago, Gibson, Hughes, and even May to the extent that we have in the 2017 rotation. And please don't hold the encouraging seasons of Berrios and Mejia as hostage here -- there was plenty of room for a skilled front office to shorten the leashes of the suspect vets over the untested/improving youth. Not to mention the starts we've flushed with Turley, Jorge, etc.

Yes, we came off a 103 loss season, although many considered it more like a 70 win season with a bonehead decision (Sano to RF) plus some bad luck. Even so, a 103 loss season is not an excuse to rely on all of the same rotation and bullpen suspects for yet another season. And while a new FO will have adjustment/evaluation periods in certain situations and levels, these areas of weakness on the MLB roster don't seem to have warranted complete inactivity. It shouldn't have required a veteran front office to add Holland instead of Breslow and Haley, or to add Garcia in anticipation of continued problems from Hughes, Gibson, Santiago, and May.

While I suppose there wasn't much else to do by the time we got to July 31, and the day in isolation went pretty well for us, it highlights a lot of the concerns we've had about the front office for the months leading up to that day. Far bigger than yesterday's trade "successes" will be the upcoming offseason, when action will be required and the suspect excuses of 103 losses / new FO will no longer be applicable (if they ever were).

Concur.

 

concurconcurconcurconcurconcurconcur.

 

Not to mention, it's legal to acquire help between opening day and July 31st, too.