Article: Twins Trade Kintzler To Nationals

[Ncgo4]

The Twins were in this only because better teams were playing below their margin. Things have returned more to the mean and the Twins do not have the horses to make it up on 1 team, let alone, now, 2. They don't have a good team. Sano is quickly returning to his 35% K rate. But, hey, he's the best 275 lb 3rd baseman in MLB. They have 2, maybe 2 1/2 starting pitchers. No DH. A CF'er who has concussion issues, migraine headaches, and keeps running head first into the CF wall. And, of course behind the plate...well, never mind. And really we shouldn't talk about non-closing relief pitching, should we?

 

We may have some answers coming up (we pray) and it's time to find out if it's true. The trades they made will only hurt us this year. Bottom line, any win could cost us a draft position. We are currently 15th in the draft, let's see how it goes. These deals were needed and could turn out good.

[gunnarthor]

 

As for the Twins "giving up", I don't think that is realistic at all. I have hated watching Terry Ryan sit pat at the deadline when he could have upgraded the farm system repeatedly by selling pending free agents. Kudos to the new regime for doing what Ryan should have.

Which pending free agents do you think Ryan let walk?

[Tom Froemming]

My only disappointment is there wasn't a stronger market out there for Kintzler. The front office clearly played hardball to try and get the absolute max for him, waiting until the very final minutes, but there was no desperate mystery team that ever emerged. What can you do?

[Jerr]

I was really bummed after yesterdays' game and today,  Only increased my bummnish  

[RaymondLuxuryYacht]

So people were excited about the rest of the season with Kintzler but are not excited now without him?

[Mike Sixel]

 

So people were excited about the rest of the season with Kintzler but are not excited now without him?

 

well, they also just traded Garcia, and people are probably factoring that in. Or, "excited" is the wrong word, but are less so now.

[Cap'n Piranha]

This likely won't be a very popular opinion, but the Twins gave up on this year for maybe five guys who:

a. probably don't rank in the top 15 in their organization and

b. probably don't rank in the top 300 in the minors and

c. likely will make little to no difference in their future?

 

That's what Littell, Enns, & Watson are, right? And given the reliever market (which we just saw for Kintzler), they certainly wouldn't have needed to give up much to add a couple of competent relievers.

 

I know it's been a tough week, but this was a mistake. I don't get why they wouldn't ride it and chance the 9% chance they hat making the playoffs. It feels like panic. What did we gain exactly for giving up?

To make the playoffs the Twins have to outperform at least 2 out of the CLE, KC, NYY, BOS, and TB group, to say nothing of the Mariners (1.5 up) and the Angels (only 0.5 back). Even with Kintzler, Garcia, and a couple more relievers, I don't think that happens. So rather than finish 84-78, and miss the wild card by 7ish games and the division by 9ish, then get nothing for Garcia, nothing for Kintzler, AND have a weaker farm system, we very much improved our depth, and can still sign both Garcia and Kintzler if we want. This was absolutely the right thing to do.

[Jerr]

 

So people were excited about the rest of the season with Kintzler but are not excited now without him?

Not just that, it's the realization this year is done and for next year???? Nothing exciting today and next year?????? Who knows, but hope something happens over the Winter.....

[luckylager]

 

Big props on this trade. Trade an "established closer" with below average K rates for a quick-rising lefty with three good pitches? Well done. Now, is Watson.... Francisco Liriano or Wilson Ramos?

As for the "secret sauce" it seems to me Falvey/Levine like big guys with above average secondary pitches and high spin rates. I'll bet if we can track it down we will find Watson has a big spin rate on his curve.

As for the Twins "giving up", I don't think that is realistic at all. I have hated watching Terry Ryan sit pat at the deadline when he could have upgraded the farm system repeatedly by selling pending free agents. Kudos to the new regime for doing what Ryan should have.

Agree 100% (except the use of the phrase "secret sauce" which I dislike). This trade deadline was a polar opposite to the Terry Ryan era.  For the first time in a long time, the Twins were players. They dumped pending free agents and JRM for some seemingly really good upside pitching prospects. I think the player draft was also handled in a much more "big picture"manner. I am very hopeful for the future.  I think the team is in a much better place than it was a year ago. Baby steps.

[Vanimal46]

 

To make the playoffs the Twins have to outperform at least 2 out of the CLE, KC, NYY, BOS, and TB group, to say nothing of the Mariners (1.5 up) and the Angels (only 0.5 back). Even with Kintzler, Garcia, and a couple more relievers, I don't think that happens. So rather than finish 84-78, and miss the wild card by 7ish games and the division by 9ish, then get nothing for Garcia, nothing for Kintzler, AND have a weaker farm system, we very much improved our depth, and can still sign both Garcia and Kintzler if we want. This was absolutely the right thing to do.

 

The question is will this improved depth ever help out the MLB team? Or will it only help out the Chattanooga Lookouts and Rochester Red Wings? We knew that Kintzler could help out the big league club.... JRM was fine to get rid of. There wasn't a future for him here. 

[diehardtwinsfan]

 

Agree 100% (except the use of the phrase "secret sauce" which I dislike). This trade deadline was a polar opposite to the Terry Ryan era.  For the first time in a long time, the Twins were players. They dumped pending free agents and JRM for some seemingly really good upside pitching prospects. I think the player draft was also handled in a much more "big picture"manner. I am very hopeful for the future.  I think the team is in a much better place than it was a year ago. Baby steps.

 

I'm not sure the draft was much different (they employed a similar strategy in 2016), but no question the deadline was different. I don't think Ryan would have ever eaten 4M in Garcia to pick up better prospects, and there's a 50/50 chance that he would have leveraged Kintzler to an extension that we'd all regret later. JRM is likely with the org too.

[diehardtwinsfan]

 

The question is will this improved depth ever help out the MLB team? Or will it only help out the Chattanooga Lookouts and Rochester Red Wings? We knew that Kintzler could help out the big league club.... JRM was fine to get rid of. There wasn't a future for him here. 

 

I would say definitely yes. They will go into 2018 with 5 starters, and they will use 10. That depth will matter.

[caninatl04]

To make the playoffs the Twins have to outperform at least 2 out of the CLE, KC, NYY, BOS, and TB group, to say nothing of the Mariners (1.5 up) and the Angels (only 0.5 back). Even with Kintzler, Garcia, and a couple more relievers, I don't think that happens. So rather than finish 84-78, and miss the wild card by 7ish games and the division by 9ish, then get nothing for Garcia, nothing for Kintzler, AND have a weaker farm system, we very much improved our depth, and can still sign both Garcia and Kintzler if we want. This was absolutely the right thing to do.

Can we all remember that the beginning-of-the-season O/U wins total was 74? That they will easily meet that expectation while strengthening their minor league system through the draft, trades and international signings, means that the Twins' season must be considered a modest success.

 

Goals for the remainder of the season should include:

1. using the "found" half-million wisely,

2. Trying out as many minor-leaguers as possible, and, most importantly,

3. Finishing their one-year "top to bottom review" of the organization.

[hugelycat]

 

This likely won't be a very popular opinion, but the Twins gave up on this year for maybe five guys who:

a. probably don't rank in the top 15 in their organization and

b. probably don't rank in the top 300 in the minors and 

c. likely will make little to no difference in their future?

 

That's what Littell, Enns, & Watson are, right? And given the reliever market (which we just saw for Kintzler), they certainly wouldn't have needed to give up much to add a couple of competent relievers.

 

I know it's been a tough week, but this was a mistake. I don't get why they wouldn't ride it and chance the 9% chance they hat making the playoffs. It feels like panic. What did we gain exactly for giving up?

 

To me it's a heart vs. head thing. We've seen the Twins play good baseball and lead the division. We know how well this team can play when things click. We want to keep that going and give them every chance we can.

 

But if we step back and look at the big picture, this isn't our year. The Twins have a -72 run differential. That's the worst in the AL Central, and out of the entire AL, only Toronto and Oakland have worse run differentials. That 9% chance of making the playoffs is probably too optimistic, as harsh as it sounds.

 

You can argue that the '87 Twins also had a negative run differential. But they were only at -20, and this year we are at -72 with 59 games left to play. This team has too many holes to fill, with multiple rotation pieces and multiple bullpen pieces needed. Plugging all of those holes doesn't come cheap, and we would have to trade significant pieces for future teams to give us any real chance at competing this year. If it was a matter of standing pat and having a good chance to make the postseason I would agree with you, but I think that hasn't been the case at all this year - this team has looked better than it really is.

 

But while I think selling right now is the right call, I think the front office deserves some real blame for not shoring up this team over the offseason. As you and others have said, Falvine could have signed more cheap veteran offseason arms, instead of relying on Belisle and minor league signings. We all knew the bullpen would be a problem, and that we couldn't rely on the back end of the rotation. The real flaw was not improving over the winter, so that when the team started playing better than expected, the Twins didn't have the players they needed, and the team fell back to earth instead of capitalizing on their success.

[ThejacKmp]

 

Yep. It hasn't been a fun 10 days for those of us who wanted to be buyers and see this team try to contend this season. 

 

Let's hope it's an aggressive off-season.... 

 

Let's hope they go on a run. Garcia and Kintzler were nice pieces but neither precludes the Twins making a run here. They need Buxton to be September Buxton when he comes back and guys like Sano and Dozier to step it up while the pitching doesn't lose games. Plenty of season left and playoffs are not out of reach.

 

Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor?

[Vanimal46]

 

I would say definitely yes. They will go into 2018 with 5 starters, and they will use 10. That depth will matter.

 

We'll disagree they now have 5 starters... There's still work to do in the off-season to hit that number. I know you posted the 2018 Rochester projected rotation which looks nice. Still not sure if they can help out in Minnesota next year or not. 

[USAFChief]

 

So people were excited about the rest of the season with Kintzler but are not excited now without him?

Speaking only for myself, I'm disappointed that the self-fulfilling prophesy of "we can't compete with these holes" while doing nothing to fill those holes is somehow vindication for yet another wasted season.

 

   "Play for 2019" does nothing for me.  It's what the de-facto farm teams that always seem to be providing talent to the real teams do.

 

 

 

 

[d-mac]

 

There can't be many top international guys left, frankly. Unless they are going into Japan....

 

I suspect there will be backfilling of lesser guys with that money... which isn't a bad way to operate on the margins of the international market, as the bust rate is so high with those guys.

 

Or is it 2018 Int'l money?

[Mr. Brooks]

I would guess he'll slot in either right ahead of or right after Rortvedt in the low 20's on mlb.com.

[Mike Sixel]

 

Speaking only for myself, I'm disappointed that the self-fulfilling prophesy of "we can't compete with these holes" while doing nothing to fill those holes is somehow vindication for yet another wasted season.

 

   "Play for 2019" does nothing for me.  It's what the de-facto farm teams that always seem to be providing talent to the real teams do.

 

I'm big on the self fulfilling prophecy part, been saying that since this site opened. If you don't try to get a lot better, you won't.

[Vanimal46]

 

Let's hope they go on a run. Garcia and Kintzler were nice pieces but neither precludes the Twins making a run here. They need Buxton to be September Buxton when he comes back and guys like Sano and Dozier to step it up while the pitching doesn't lose games. Plenty of season left and playoffs are not out of reach.

 

Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor?

 

It would be extremely unlikely, but crazier things have happened in baseball. I'll still watch some games the rest of the way. Today just feels like a step back for watching competitive baseball. 

[Mike Sixel]

 

Or is it 2018 Int'l money?

 

can't be, against the rules.

[iastfan112]

 

This likely won't be a very popular opinion, but the Twins gave up on this year for maybe five guys who:

a. probably don't rank in the top 15 in their organization and

b. probably don't rank in the top 300 in the minors and 

c. likely will make little to no difference in their future?

 

That's what Littell, Enns, & Watson are, right? And given the reliever market (which we just saw for Kintzler), they certainly wouldn't have needed to give up much to add a couple of competent relievers.

 

I know it's been a tough week, but this was a mistake. I don't get why they wouldn't ride it and chance the 9% chance they hat making the playoffs. It feels like panic. What did we gain exactly for giving up?

5 games back of the WC and 7 of the division while below .500 and outperforming our Pythagorean does not bode well for a playoff push. Things were different when the Twins were just a couple back but now was the time to sell pieces that wouldn't be here next year. Good trades and the Garcia one in particular could help the Twins compete as soon as next year.

[d-mac]

 

It really does seem like they're putting a whole lot of focus on top-quality secondary pitches. Big curveballs and polished changeups are what I'm seeing.

 

Maybe they're onto something there?

 

Probably a better plan than "DRAFT ALL RELIEVERS!"

[jmlease1]

 

Sad.

 

Twins had the type of team over the winter that was obviously ready for a step forward, but had some easily identifiable holes.

 

They do virtually nothing to address those holes, then watch as those holes tank a somewhat promising season.

 

Then dump, for what appears to be most likely org filler.

 

Not my idea of how I want this franchise run.

 

Obvious only in that they weren't as bad as their record last year.

 

I didn't see a lot of good starting pitching talent on the FA market last season, and that's easily the biggest hole. Adding a couple of mediocre guys on 3-4 year contracts at $10M+ per does little for me. The lineup had question marks, but also had young talent that needed to get tested at the MLB level, so wait & see makes sense there. The bullpen had issues, but I'm not a fan of flinging big money on relievers. So volatile, and so easy to find quality: just look at Kintzler!

 

This season was promising in that the team wasn't awful out the gate and some of the younger players were showing flashes of their capability. They were still playing above their heads, much like last year they were playing below it.

 

These guys don't look like org filler to me: they look like prospects, and we didn't give up much for them. Ynoa turned into 2 prospects that are a bit more advanced, instead of just a lottery ticket. Kintzler wasn't likely to be back as teams still overpay "proven closers" so why not get something for him, especially with several additional relief prospects looking to be ready soon?

 

Look, if the team stands pat next offseason, then I'd question it, but they seem to have done ok here. No massive heists, but reasonable value.

[Puckett34]

 

I wanted an almost-MLB ready catching prospect (or the equivalent) in return for our "proven closer."

Alas, Kintzler is no Matt Capps.

[Jerr]

 

Let's hope they go on a run. Garcia and Kintzler were nice pieces but neither precludes the Twins making a run here. They need Buxton to be September Buxton when he comes back and guys like Sano and Dozier to step it up while the pitching doesn't lose games. Plenty of season left and playoffs are not out of reach.

 

Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor?

If, the Germans did bomb Pearl Harbor, it probably would have been over. Playoffs, this year? Pahleeze....

[Puckett34]

 

I vote for outrage. I expect every subsequent post from you about this topic to be in all caps.

Oh I forgot.  DO I NEED TO TYPE LIKE THIS NOW????

 

In all seriousness, this seems like the type of return we should have expected for on any other team, a 7th or 8th inning guy. 

 

I like that they did something in regards to Kintzler.  Can always resign him in the offseason.

[Winston Smith]

When did the Germans bomb Pearl Harbor?

[Rosterman]

It looks like we don't need to 40-man roster him yet, which can be a plus.

 

And got some cash in the deal to spend on international signings. CASH is the favorite player of the executive branch of the front office.

 

Plus, we now have the opportunity to explore resigning Kintzler, if they need arises.