Article: Twins Trade Kintzler To Nationals

[Steve Lein]

 

This likely won't be a very popular opinion, but the Twins gave up on this year for maybe five guys who:

a. probably don't rank in the top 15 in their organization and

b. probably don't rank in the top 300 in the minors and 

c. likely will make little to no difference in their future?

 

That's what Littell, Enns, & Watson are, right? And given the reliever market (which we just saw for Kintzler), they certainly wouldn't have needed to give up much to add a couple of competent relievers.

 

I know it's been a tough week, but this was a mistake. I don't get why they wouldn't ride it and chance the 9% chance they hat making the playoffs. It feels like panic. What did we gain exactly for giving up?

 

Options for the near future.

 

I've been saying it leading up to this, despite them being in division race, their window for competing wasn't open yet (they had the 12th best record in baseball when they were "leading the division"). It closed in a hurry and they made the right type of moves that they could.

[drjim]

 

This likely won't be a very popular opinion, but the Twins gave up on this year for maybe five guys who:

a. probably don't rank in the top 15 in their organization and

b. probably don't rank in the top 300 in the minors and 

c. likely will make little to no difference in their future?

 

That's what Littell, Enns, & Watson are, right? And given the reliever market (which we just saw for Kintzler), they certainly wouldn't have needed to give up much to add a couple of competent relievers.

 

I know it's been a tough week, but this was a mistake. I don't get why they wouldn't ride it and chance the 9% chance they hat making the playoffs. It feels like panic. What did we gain exactly for giving up?

 

I'm giving the front office some benefit but I agree. I would have kept the two and added another reliever, perhaps another in August if they still remained in the race.

 

I thought they did perfectly fine with their returns considering what they were working with, but none of this is all that franchise altering. And I am much less interested in the rest of the season.

[gunnarthor]

 

This likely won't be a very popular opinion, but the Twins gave up on this year for maybe five guys who:

a. probably don't rank in the top 15 in their organization and

b. probably don't rank in the top 300 in the minors and 

c. likely will make little to no difference in their future?

 

That's what Littell, Enns, & Watson are, right? And given the reliever market (which we just saw for Kintzler), they certainly wouldn't have needed to give up much to add a couple of competent relievers.

 

I know it's been a tough week, but this was a mistake. I don't get why they wouldn't ride it and chance the 9% chance they hat making the playoffs. It feels like panic. What did we gain exactly for giving up?

I don't disagree. I would say that the bullpen wasn't the only problem. Obviously, the starters are a mixed bag but our offense has been struggling a bit and Kintzler isn't irreplaceable. So, really our choices were maybe trading off Ynoa, Blankenhorn, Curtiss, Garver (some guys in our 10-20) for some modest bullpen help. Maybe that works. Or, we get a little for later and open up some 40 man spots and bring up Romero and Curtiss to the pen, now, and aim for next year.

[70charger]

 

This likely won't be a very popular opinion, but the Twins gave up on this year for maybe five guys who:

a. probably don't rank in the top 15 in their organization and

b. probably don't rank in the top 300 in the minors and 

c. likely will make little to no difference in their future?

 

That's what Littell, Enns, & Watson are, right? And given the reliever market (which we just saw for Kintzler), they certainly wouldn't have needed to give up much to add a couple of competent relievers.

 

I know it's been a tough week, but this was a mistake. I don't get why they wouldn't ride it and chance the 9% chance they hat making the playoffs. It feels like panic. What did we gain exactly for giving up?

 

Shouldn't we take into account the fact that it's now easier to shuffle the pieces around and get some help from the upper minors? Guys like Garver, Curtiss, Romero, etc. They could all be up tomorrow with some strategic thinking.

 

And not only does that give them valuable experience and probably make us better next year, it's also the exact opposite of giving up if they can perform the way we think they can. Who knows, this might make us better.

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

This likely won't be a very popular opinion, but the Twins gave up on this year for maybe five guys who:

a. probably don't rank in the top 15 in their organization and

b. probably don't rank in the top 300 in the minors and 

c. likely will make little to no difference in their future?

 

That's what Littell, Enns, & Watson are, right? And given the reliever market (which we just saw for Kintzler), they certainly wouldn't have needed to give up much to add a couple of competent relievers.

 

I know it's been a tough week, but this was a mistake. I don't get why they wouldn't ride it and chance the 9% chance they hat making the playoffs. It feels like panic. What did we gain exactly for giving up?

I mean, maybe... but are the Twins really giving up on an attainable goal in the first place? KC and Cleveland just walked away and I don't think the Twins are good enough (or Cleveland bad enough) to ever close that gap.

 

Secondly, this organization's pitching depth is thin, particularly in the upper minors. Sure, maybe none of those guys work out but if even one of them posts a season or two of decent performance, that could be a difference-maker on this team from 2018-2020. The Twins needed arms and they got some.

[Buddy Holly]

Most of he pitching the Twins have dealt for or drafted have one thing in common "above average Curveball". Most scouts indicate this as plus as it is hard to improve a curve. This must be a Falvine requirement.

 

Who closes now? 

 

[alarp33]

 

This likely won't be a very popular opinion, but the Twins gave up on this year for maybe five guys who:

a. probably don't rank in the top 15 in their organization and

b. probably don't rank in the top 300 in the minors and 

c. likely will make little to no difference in their future?

 

That's what Littell, Enns, & Watson are, right? And given the reliever market (which we just saw for Kintzler), they certainly wouldn't have needed to give up much to add a couple of competent relievers.

 

I know it's been a tough week, but this was a mistake. I don't get why they wouldn't ride it and chance the 9% chance they hat making the playoffs. It feels like panic. What did we gain exactly for giving up?

 

I would guess Littell ranks in the Twins top 15, or close to it going into next year.  Same with Watson, who seems like a really nice lottery ticket. 

 

As for "give up on this year" - the Twins traded 1 player from their All Star Break - Major League roster to get all of the pieces you mentioned - a pending Free Agent in Kintzler. If you think making the playoffs was an attainable goal, losing Kintzler (0.7 WAR) shouldn't move those odds by all that much

 

[USAFChief]

Sad.

 

Twins had the type of team over the winter that was obviously ready for a step forward, but had some easily identifiable holes.

 

They do virtually nothing to address those holes, then watch as those holes tank a somewhat promising season.

 

Then dump, for what appears to be most likely org filler.

 

Not my idea of how I want this franchise run.

 

 

 

 

[akmanak]

I was all for trading Kintzler but we hardly got anything for him. Are the Twins planning to dump payroll and spend nothing yet again because that is the way it looks from my porch.

[Mike Sixel]

 

Sad.

 

Twins had the type of team over the winter that was obviously ready for a step forward, but had some easily identifiable holes.

 

They do virtually nothing to address those holes, then watch as those holes tank a somewhat promising season.

 

Then dump, for what appears to be most likely org filler.

 

Not my idea of how I want this franchise run.

 

I share this opinion, but once they didn't do that, I think trading Kintzler at this point makes sense....

 

If they don't add at least one SP and 2 RPs this off season, I will be disappoint.

[70charger]

 

Most of he pitching the Twins have dealt for or drafted have one thing in common "above average Curveball". Most scouts indicate this as plus as it is hard to improve a curve. This must be a Falvine requirement.

 

Who closes now? 

 

It really does seem like they're putting a whole lot of focus on top-quality secondary pitches. Big curveballs and polished changeups are what I'm seeing.

 

Maybe they're onto something there?

[Mike Sixel]

 

I was all for trading Kintzler but we hardly got anything for him. Are the Twins planning to dump payroll and spend nothing yet again because that is the way it looks from my porch.

 

they ate payroll in the arbitrage deal for and then sending away Garcia. This isn't about money at all, imo. And dumping Kintzler doesn't save much money. I just don't see it that way at all.

[alarp33]

 

I was all for trading Kintzler but we hardly got anything for him. Are the Twins planning to dump payroll and spend nothing yet again because that is the way it looks from my porch.

 

They saved around $1 million by trading Kintzler.  They spent $4 million on Garcia alone to improve the prospects they received in return. What in the world are you talking about

[Vanimal46]

I'm giving the front office some benefit but I agree. I would have kept the two and added another reliever, perhaps another in August if they still remained in the race.

 

I thought they did perfectly fine with their returns considering what they were working with, but none of this is all that franchise altering. And I am much less interested in the rest of the season.

Couldn't agree more with your last sentence. Now that it's decided that the season is over for contending, I would hope they call up an assortment of different players to find out what they have. Especially from the list of 10+ relievers in the minors.

[drjim]

 

Couldn't agree more with your last sentence. Now that it's decided that the season is over for contending, I would hope they call up an assortment of different players to find out what they have. Especially from the list of 10+ relievers in the minors.

 

Meh. Unless they jump Gonsalves for some starts or bring Romero into the bullpen, no one in the minors they are likely to call up excite me that much. Backup catchers and middle relievers.

 

Mostly going to run out the string with the same group we've seen all year.

 

 

[Dantes929]

 

This likely won't be a very popular opinion, but the Twins gave up on this year for maybe five guys who:

a. probably don't rank in the top 15 in their organization and

b. probably don't rank in the top 300 in the minors and 

c. likely will make little to no difference in their future?

 

That's what Littell, Enns, & Watson are, right? And given the reliever market (which we just saw for Kintzler), they certainly wouldn't have needed to give up much to add a couple of competent relievers.

 

I know it's been a tough week, but this was a mistake. I don't get why they wouldn't ride it and chance the 9% chance they hat making the playoffs. It feels like panic. What did we gain exactly for giving up?

I am very much the underdog never give up kind of guy but if they had a 9% chance of making the playoffs before this move, what are the odds after the move?  8%?   After riding Rogers and Kintzler to playoff relevance for the first half, they have given up quite a few leads since the break which I think conservatively has cost us 3 wins.  Maybe new blood can give us a boost.

[Taildragger8791]

 

Couldn't agree more with your last sentence. Now that it's decided that the season is over for contending, I would hope they call up an assortment of different players to find out what they have. Especially from the list of 10+ relievers in the minors.

 

Who are these 10+ (healthy) relievers you refer to? Jake Reed is still on an every 3rd day pitching schedule for some reason. After that it gets pretty meh.

[gunnarthor]

I do think these moves are decent but I think this offseason will be a much bigger test for Levine.

[Mike Sixel]

 

I do think these moves are decent but I think this offseason will be a much bigger test for Levine.

 

100%

[Winston Smith]

I'm guessing that Gimenez will be the new closer?

[caninatl04]

There can't be many top international guys left, frankly. Unless they are going into Japan....

A question: Is the $500K in International Money for 2017 or 2018?

[diehardtwinsfan]

 

Somebody tell me how to feel about the return

 

Generally, I'd say you're not supposed to say anything. Two or three years from now, you get to deride it saying you always thought it was bad

 

In all seriousness, you cannot argue with the lotto ticket/bonus money. It's a very fair return for a guy who is an FA in two months.

[Dman]

 

This likely won't be a very popular opinion, but the Twins gave up on this year for maybe five guys who:

a. probably don't rank in the top 15 in their organization and

b. probably don't rank in the top 300 in the minors and 

c. likely will make little to no difference in their future?

 

That's what Littell, Enns, & Watson are, right? And given the reliever market (which we just saw for Kintzler), they certainly wouldn't have needed to give up much to add a couple of competent relievers.

 

I know it's been a tough week, but this was a mistake. I don't get why they wouldn't ride it and chance the 9% chance they hat making the playoffs. It feels like panic. What did we gain exactly for giving up?

Yeah but the alternative was to deplete the farm even more to try and fill too many holes on this team for such a small chance of success even to reach the wild card round.  So if the gamble didn't pay off then what wait for another window.  Staying with what we have wasn't working.  We already lost a series to the A's and both Clevland and KC have better pitching and fewer holes to fill than we do.  Sell was the option with the best percentage for future success.

 

I don't get why you would be so down on the prospects we got.  These are not your typical Twins deadline pickups.  Most all of them are fast risers\young for their level and have high upside.   Yeah lots and lots of prospects don't turn out but the odds are better when picking out of someones top 20.  None of the players we traded had much value to begin with.  I think they did a heck of a job to get us some compelling arms for our window. 

 

This team has more work to do and we need to find out more about how the prospects we have handle facing MLB players.  This should open the door to do that.  Even if you are right and none of these guys make it you have to try and find better talent if you want to compete with better teams.

[AlwaysinModeration]

Big props on this trade. Trade an "established closer" with below average K rates for a quick-rising lefty with three good pitches? Well done. Now, is Watson.... Francisco Liriano or Wilson Ramos?

 

As for the "secret sauce" it seems to me Falvey/Levine like big guys with above average secondary pitches and high spin rates. I'll bet if we can track it down we will find Watson has a big spin rate on his curve.

 

As for the Twins "giving up", I don't think that is realistic at all. I have hated watching Terry Ryan sit pat at the deadline when he could have upgraded the farm system repeatedly by selling pending free agents. Kudos to the new regime for doing what Ryan should have.

[gil4]

 

Somebody tell me how to feel about the return

I wanted an almost-MLB ready catching prospect (or the equivalent) in return for our "proven closer."

[drjim]

A question: Is the $500K in International Money for 2017 or 2018?

The current period. Twins actually have two decent prospects they are going to sign once they turn 16. This gives them some extra money to work with in the interim.

[Mike Sixel]

 

A question: Is the $500K in International Money for 2017 or 2018?

 

edit: ninjad

Edited July 31, 2017 by Mike Sixel

[Vanimal46]

 

Sad.

 

Twins had the type of team over the winter that was obviously ready for a step forward, but had some easily identifiable holes.

 

They do virtually nothing to address those holes, then watch as those holes tank a somewhat promising season.

 

Then dump, for what appears to be most likely org filler.

 

Not my idea of how I want this franchise run.

 

Yep. It hasn't been a fun 10 days for those of us who wanted to be buyers and see this team try to contend this season. 

 

Let's hope it's an aggressive off-season.... 

Edited July 31, 2017 by Vanimal46

[jokin]

 

Somebody tell me how to feel about the return

 

Love the additional International signing $$$.

[Vanimal46]

 

Who are these 10+ (healthy) relievers you refer to? Jake Reed is still on an every 3rd day pitching schedule for some reason. After that it gets pretty meh.

 

I was thinking since there's now flexibility on the 40 man, give one or two of the 16 players requiring protection this off-season an early audition.