Article: McKay Says No Way

[mickeymental]

maybe baseball could steer legitimate two-way players onto national league teams so they can get 75-100 plate appearances per year even if they concentrate on pitching.

 

edit: or just eliminate the designated hitter.

Edited June 13, 2017 by mickeymental

[laloesch]

 

I am not saying the current draft would have any impact this season. I just want to make it clear the Twins need pitching, pitching and more pitching. The reason why this team got blown out so many times this season is because of no quality pitching. I just don't want history repeats itself in the future. I would like them to draft as many good pitching arms as possible.

 

Amen and 100% right.  Big opportunity missed here to grab a top college pitcher that could have helped the rotation soon while they still have the core of Sano, Buxton, Kepler, etc. intact.

[tobi0040]

Jack,

 

I really don't appreciate the unnecessary personal shot.

 

But here is what I know:

 

We had the first pick as well two other picks in the 30's

 

We had the most money to spend

 

Not only did we not agree to terms with the player we wanted, we went under slot with 1-1 and 35 and 37 (Mayo said he can't see 35/37 getting full slot)

 

I also know that if you look back at history, a pretty high distribution of good players come in the first 30-40 picks vs the rest of the draft. So getting less value here just seems like a pretty bad idea.

 

If we end up signing guys in rounds 38-39 that project as first round picks next year and we use all of our money, then the strategy would seem more clear. But in the meantime I am not sure the Pohlad's have a track record that would warrant the benefit of the doubt some are giving them.

[sploorp]

 

The last two games were examples of how badly the Twins need pitching, both starters and relievers. But that help will only come from one of three places, trades, free agents and pitchers in the high minors. So the answer to their problem wasn't McKay, Greene or Wright. But it may be guys named Jorge, Romero, Gonsalves and maybe Thorpe.

The Twins lack of front line starters is because they never draft them.  Once again, they went for the toolsy everyday player.  Nobody thinks these guys are going to help the current team, but it would have been nice to have a top of the rotation guy in the system.

[alarp33]

 

The Twins lack of front line starters is because they never draft them.  Once again, they went for the toolsy everyday player.  Nobody thinks these guys are going to help the current team, but it would have been nice to have a top of the rotation guy in the system.

 

The Twins have used 2 top-6 picks on pitchers in the past 4 years

[spanman2]

 

Chris Gimenez says hello! He might as well be considered part of the bullpen now with how many times he's pitched. 

IALTO

[ThejacKmp]

 

Both of you please stop monopolizing this thread.

 

Perhaps more arguments on TD should be solved with a Monopoly game. I'm sure there's some way to play online. Maybe they could be a sponsor of TD?

[ThejacKmp]

 

Jack,

I really don't appreciate the unnecessary personal shot.

But here is what I know:

We had the first pick as well two other picks in the 30's

We had the most money to spend

Not only did we not agree to terms with the player we wanted, we went under slot with 1-1 and 35 and 37 (Mayo said he can't see 35/37 getting full slot)

I also know that if you look back at history, a pretty high distribution of good players come in the first 30-40 picks vs the rest of the draft. So getting less value here just seems like a pretty bad idea.

If we end up signing guys in rounds 38-39 that project as first round picks next year and we use all of our money, then the strategy would seem more clear. But in the meantime I am not sure the Pohlad's have a track record that would warrant the benefit of the doubt some are giving them.

 

It's not a personal shot. Just saying, understand the rules. You can't say cheap after one day of the draft. It's just not possible. That's like calling the Twins the AL Central champs because they're up right now. This thing has to play itself out. The word cheap cannot be used except in the highly unlikely case the Twins don't use their full allotment of draft money. Let's hold off on calling people cheap until them.

 

Note: I hate the Pohldads. I booed when they honored Carl. I didn't feel great about booing the dead but that man was terrible. Made his fortune foreclosing on farmers in the Depression, tried to move and contract the Twins. Why we honored him, I don't know.

[laloesch]

They will literally spend the exact same amount of money on the draft as if they had taken Greene. Are you trolling and I'm taking the bait?

I'm not drinking the cool-aid. This has been a squandered draft so far in my opinion. I understand Falvey and Levine not trading Dozier or Santana last season (the offers just weren't right). That said, not addressing an obviously inferior bullpen in the offseason was strike one, wasting a 1:1 pick on Lewis and the wasted supplemental pick is a big FAT strike two.

 

What i see so far? A new front office that can't close a deal during tough negotiations. Regardless of whether or not the Dozier DeLeon trade would have been right for the team is moot, they weren't able to secure additional pieces via negotiation and close a deal. Same thing with McKay. Obviously that was they guy they REALLY wanted yet they refused to go over slot or at slot and couldn't get him on board yet the Rays were able to do so. Just wow!

 

What does this tell you about Falvey and Levine? Can't close a deal?! I'm not impressed at all.

[alarp33]

 

I'm not drinking the cool-aid.  This has been a squandered draft so far in my opinion.  I understand Falvey and Levine not trading Dozier or Santana last season (the offers just weren't right).  That said, not addressing an obviously inferior bullpen in the offseason was strike one, wasting a 1:1 pick on Lewis and the supplemental pick is a big FAT strike two if you ask me.  Just my opinion.  I am not impressed so far at all with the new regime after seeing this.

 

What kool-aid? It's literally a fact that the same amount of money will be spent on their draft, as it would have if they had taken Greene like you preferred.  Like it's not a debateable point or argument to even have.  

[laloesch]

 

What kool-aid? It's literally a fact that the same amount of money will be spent on their draft, as it would have if they had taken Greene like you preferred.  Like it's not a debateable point or argument to even have.  

 

That's not my point.  I didn't say that i wanted Greene as the #1 either.

[alarp33]

That's not my point. I didn't say that i wanted Greene as the #1 either.

"but again it comes down to money."

 

In literally no way does it come down to cheapness. They will spend the exact same amount of money on Lewis + the remaining picks, as they would have on McKay (Or Greene) and the remaining picks

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

I'm fine passing on McKay. An interesting study would be how two-way college players drafted high have fared over their careers when asked to give up one half of their game. Seems like too much of a risk at 1-1. Unless he can be signed for a discount maybe.

[laloesch]

 

The Twins have used 2 top-6 picks on pitchers in the past 4 years

 

True, but the wrong ones.  They drafted a reliever and attempted to turn him into a starter.  The other is a type one diabetic (big red flag for any athlete) and to be honest Stewart was over hyped and never lived up to the scouting reports from day one.

[laloesch]

 

"but again it comes down to money.  CHEAP CHEAP CHEAP!"

 

In literally no way does it come down to cheapness.  They will spend the exact same amount of money on Lewis + the remaining picks, as they would have on McKay (Or Greene) and the remaining picks

 

They refused to pay McKay slot and that was THE GUY they wanted.

Edited June 13, 2017 by laloesch

[alarp33]

 

They refused to pay McKay slot and that was THE GUY they wanted.

 

I'll just end this now.  Try to be smarter.  

 

1) You don't know that was the guy they wanted

2) They paid under slot so they could draft the 29th ranked prospect at #76

3) Again, they are paying THE EXACT SAME amount of money to draft picks

[savvyspy]

I think Lewis is a very defendable pick. He was either 1 or 2 for position players on just about everyone's list.

 

I would have preferred Greene just because I think his floor is a legit front line closer if he doesn't improve his secondary pitches much but I'm not losing any sleep over it.

 

They picked up a couple of interesting RHP in the next rounds. Leech was a reach at 37 but to get Enlow later sort of makes up for that. Two very solid signable HS pitchers both 18 will be interesting to watch.

 

What I will say, is if this is the route you are going to go in the draft, I don't want to hear anything about how free agency isn't the way to build a team later on. None of these guys is on the radar for 4-5 seasons. The Twins are going to have to lean on FA and trades to improve this atrocious pitching staff in the near term. 

[Brock Beauchamp]

If you haven't listened to the GatG podcast recorded on Sunday, Gleeman specifically mentions that he talked to someone in a front office from a highly respected team and they were high on Lewis, saying that they'd probably take Greene first but if someone was down on Greene for whatever reason, Lewis was second on their board.

 

So this didn't come completely out of nowhere.

[tobi0040]

From what I have read, Enlow at 76 dropped because his velo dipped from 92-94 to 89-91 this spring, not because of a signability issue.

[Mr. Brooks]

Good.

Lewis wouldn't have been my first choice, but I'd much rather have him than McKay.

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

And if through talking to Greene, the Twins felt that Greene's heart was set on San Diego, then passing on Greene is fine by me that way too.

[tobi0040]

Personally, I would not give two rips where a players heart is. You draft a guy, hand him 6-7 million bucks and he is controlled for 7 years. He will get over it quickly.

 

In the case of Lewis and Greene, Boras represents both. So if they pan out we may only get 7 years.

 

My personal theory is that Greene was the best prospect. The biggest knock against him was the track record of and lack of HS RHP going 1-1. And the recent track record of guys that were HS RHP but weren't as highly regarded as him. It seems to me that he became a victim of a self-fulfilling prophecy that benefitted the Reds, who were more than happy to scoop him up at #2.

[jun]

While it may not be cheapness, it is certainly a failed draft.

Edited June 13, 2017 by jun

[drivlikejehu]

 

While it may not be cheapness, it is certainly a failed draft.

 

Your ability to predict the future output of the drafted players - and even the players yet to be drafted - is astounding. Presumably you are leveraging that talent to make billions in securities trading.

[jun]

Pitching should be the first priority. I understand the need to lure talents for the latter picks. In this case, Gore should be the one they drafted #1. 

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

Pitching should be the first priority. I understand the need to lure talents for the latter picks. In this case, Gore should be the one they drafted #1. 

No, pitching shouldn't be the first priority. What you feel will be the best MLB player should be the first priority.

 

Unless you think the Cubs have been doing things all wrong for the past five years by mostly avoiding pitching in the first two rounds and entirely in the first round (until this year when they picked at the bottom of the pile).

[tobi0040]

In fairness, the Cubs are in a position to spend on guys like Jon Lester and we are not.

 

If you need pitching to win, the Twins lack an avenue some teams have. That is part of the equation.

 

Now we can point to guys like Arrietta or even Ervin that we could get, but it is not a level playing field. Please note, I don't want to start a debate that we could sign an ace. The fact is we won't.

[jun]

 

Your ability to predict the future output of the drafted players - and even the players yet to be drafted - is astounding. Presumably you are leveraging that talent to make billions in securities trading.

I don't know how many talented young players left to be drafted by the Twins in order to make this draft get a passing grade.

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

 

Personally, I would not give two rips where a players heart is. You draft a guy, hand him 6-7 million bucks and he is controlled for 7 years. He will get over it quickly.

In the case of Lewis and Greene, Boras represents both. So if they pan out we may only get 7 years.

My personal theory is that Greene was the best prospect. The biggest knock against him was the track record of and lack of HS RHP going 1-1. And the recent track record of guys that were HS RHP but weren't as highly regarded as him. It seems to me that he became a victim of a self-fulfilling prophecy that benefitted the Reds, who were more than happy to scoop him up at #2.

Ever hired anyone who wanted to work somewhere else?

 

Your point is correct, I just don't have a problem with it. But the Twins wouldn't have passed on Greene if they felt Greene was that much superior to the other options. 

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

 

I don't know how many talented young players left to be drafted by the Twins in order to make this draft get a passing grade.

Of the talented players remaining that you do know, which ones would you like them to pick?