Ortiz

[TheLeviathan]

Papi: My Story has already put Valentine on the defensive.....any guesses on what he says about the Twins?

[gunnarthor]

I imagine he continues to say that the Twins held him back and his break out at 27 had nothing to do with PED use.

[DaveW]

  On 5/12/2017 at 2:25 PM, gunnarthor said:

his break out at 27 had nothing to do with PED use.

It didn't. Ortiz was already a 30-40 hr guy for the Twins (if they played him for a full season)

[yarnivek1972]

Listening on Mike & Mike right now. Takes a not so subtle jab at Tom Kelly. Maybe he didn't do right by Ortiz, but to say that Kelly was more used to older, more experienced players is simply not accurate IMO. First of all, the guy paid his dues managing in the low minors. He helped develop guys like Hrbek and Gaetti, etc. second, he had a pretty decent record of putting young, inexperienced players in a position to succeed at the MLB level. Position players anyway. His record with young pitchers, other than Radke maybe, wasn't very good. Shane Mack, Chuck Knoblauch, Scott Leius, Pedro Munoz, Marty Cordova, Torii Hunter, Corey Koskie, Cristian Guzman and even Doug Mientkiewicz. Those are guys that he had a hand in teaching at the MLB level and did quite well.

[Thrylos]

 

  On 5/17/2017 at 1:23 PM, yarnivek1972 said:

Listening on Mike & Mike right now. Takes a not so subtle jab at Tom Kelly. Maybe he didn't do right by Ortiz, but to say that Kelly was more used to older, more experienced players is simply not accurate IMO. First of all, the guy paid his dues managing in the low minors. He helped develop guys like Hrbek and Gaetti, etc. second, he had a pretty decent record of putting young, inexperienced players in a position to succeed at the MLB level.

 

Not sure how much of it was Kelly or Ryan, but with that duo on the lead the Twins won nothing.  So that's that.  MacPhail surrounded younger players (Erickson, Knoblauch) with veterans and they succeeded.  After MacPhail left, Ryan surrounded younger players with Minnesotan-born had beens and cheap bad veterans and they were not in position to succeed, and they did not succeed.

 

In the late 90s, Kelly was a super grouch.  And it was very true that he was whining about the lack of veterans on the club and he, like his successor, was partial with "his boys" and not very open to playing young people.  That was pretty much a fact, and Ortiz, who was there, btw, and knows a thing or two more than us, got it right 100%, based on Kelly's public behavior  and quotes back then.

 

The Twins did have some young good talent (Cordova, Walker, Mahomes, Serafini, Stahoviak etc) and other than Radke, they failed to develop it in the Kelly/Ryan years.  Again, how much of that was Kelly and how much of that was Ryan, may be debatable, but it is a fact.

 

And Ortiz should know.  He was a victim.

 

Also: Kelly had nothing to do with developing Hrbek & Gaetti.  Hrbek was in the majors in Sept. 1981 and Kelly was managing the A level Visalia Oaks.  They spent one year together.  Gaetti was in the majors also in 1981 and never was managed by Kelly before he became the Twins' manager.

 

[BobAzar]

 

  On 5/17/2017 at 1:39 PM, Thrylos said:

 

 

And Ortiz should know.  He was a victim.

 

 

 

 

Very true, how many years later, how many WS titles, how many HRs later, and Ortiz is still playing the victim of TK's oppressive regime.

Time to get over it David

[gunnarthor]

Ortiz needs people to think he was a crappy ballplayer until 27 season because TK used him wrong rather than suspect PEDS helped him.

[raindog]

 

  On 5/17/2017 at 1:58 PM, gunnarthor said:

Ortiz needs people to think he was a crappy ballplayer until 27 season because TK used him wrong rather than suspect PEDS helped him.

His OPS in his final three years with the Twins: .810, .799, .839. He wasn't a crappy player. And that was with the Twins trying to get him to "hit it the other way".

 

I do think he can get over it now. Twins messed up. He had a great career in Boston. 

[Mike Sixel]

Well, he does have a book coming out, so him talking about, you know, what's in the book and his experiences are what he's doing........

 

And, since he was actually there and some of you weren't born, I'm guessing he has more insight into what went on than we do. No idea if he's exaggerating or not, but I'm guessing his statements are at least rooted in truth.

[mazeville]

 

  On 5/17/2017 at 1:39 PM, Thrylos said:

 

 

And Ortiz should know.  He was a victim.

 

 

David Ortiz was hardly a "victim."

 

He had an OPS of +.800 the year before he was let go by the Twins. He went on to become one of the best DHs of all time with the Red Sox, winning multiple World Series titles and becoming a legend. He's no victim. Not at all.

 

Whatever TK allegedly did, Ortiz was still a stud that year. The problem wasn't that Ortiz sucked. It was that Terry Ryan decided Ortiz wasn't good enough to keep. 

 

The only victims I see are the Minnesota fans who have had to watch David Ortiz become a hall of famer while their own team could not get over the Yankees hump during several playoff appearances -- a hump that Ortiz, hitting behind Joe Mauer and Justin Morneau, could have absolutely helped them get over.

 

So no. Ortiz is no victim. He needs to get over it and be thankful that the Red Sox took him and helped him become the player he became. 

[yarnivek1972]

 

  On 5/17/2017 at 1:39 PM, Thrylos said:

Not sure how much of it was Kelly or Ryan, but with that duo on the lead the Twins won nothing.  So that's that.  MacPhail surrounded younger players (Erickson, Knoblauch) with veterans and they succeeded.  After MacPhail left, Ryan surrounded younger players with Minnesotan-born had beens and cheap bad veterans and they were not in position to succeed, and they did not succeed.

 

In the late 90s, Kelly was a super grouch.  And it was very true that he was whining about the lack of veterans on the club and he, like his successor, was partial with "his boys" and not very open to playing young people.  That was pretty much a fact, and Ortiz, who was there, btw, and knows a thing or two more than us, got it right 100%, based on Kelly's public behavior  and quotes back then.

 

The Twins did have some young good talent (Cordova, Walker, Mahomes, Serafini, Stahoviak etc) and other than Radke, they failed to develop it in the Kelly/Ryan years.  Again, how much of that was Kelly and how much of that was Ryan, may be debatable, but it is a fact.

 

And Ortiz should know.  He was a victim.

 

Also: Kelly had nothing to do with developing Hrbek & Gaetti.  Hrbek was in the majors in Sept. 1981 and Kelly was managing the A level Visalia Oaks.  They spent one year together.  Gaetti was in the majors also in 1981 and never was managed by Kelly before he became the Twins' manager.

 

 

???

 

In 1999, did not the Twins field a roster that included Mientkiewicz, Koskie, Guzman, Hunter and Jones - all of whom still had rookie status?  5 rookies that combined to get almost 2000 PA.

 

  According to the foreword written by Hrbek from the Season of Dreams book about the 1991 season, he worked with Kelly in instructional leagues in the late 70s - and presumably Gaetti since I believe they were at every level together.  Perhaps that was what I had remembered.  I guess I had the core guys that Kelly managed in the minors wrong.  He did manage Greg Gagne at AA in 1982.

[DaveW]

Ortiz has every right in the world to be pissed at how Kelly and the Twins "used" and treated him. 

 

He could have had 600 HR if they would have used him correctly.

The guy had a .839 OPS (.920 OPS against RHP) and 20 HR in 412 at bats his last season here, and he was just entering the beginning of his prime at age 26. Also he was beloved by his teammates and a great guy to the fans as well. 

They choose to cut him for a guy who had a .754 OPS and less than 15 HR in his entire career. Oh and the beauty is they easily could have kept Ortiz AND Lecroy!

Stupid, stupid, stupid. Kelly was a pretty solid manager overall, but these sort of dumb moves on his part are what keep him in the "pretty good" manager club, instead of the hall of fame manager club.

If we hadn't pissed away David Ortiz for nothing, I am 100% convinced we would have at least one more pennant at least.

[Otto von Ballpark]

 

  On 5/17/2017 at 1:58 PM, gunnarthor said:

Ortiz needs people to think he was a crappy ballplayer until 27 season because TK used him wrong rather than suspect PEDS helped him.

Don't you think Ortiz was good enough, long enough (during the testing era) to earn the benefit of the doubt that PEDs played a minimal role (at best) in his success?

[Loosey]

I don't know if Kelly favored older vets over young guys.  However, both Kelly and Gardenhire did have favorites.  And at times that blindness let to dumb decisions.  Keeping LeCroy and Releasing Ortiz is one of them.  At the time the Twins hadn't had a power hitter in years and the Twins "small-ball" era was just beginning.  Ortiz didn't fit that mold and was shown the door. 

[Seth Stohs]

Oh good, this dumb subject again... Heard it yesterday with the whole memoir coming out... 

 

To reiterate:

 

• Ortiz played just fine as a Twin.
• He couldn't stay healthy.
• Former teammates of his have said that he never would have lasted at the Metrodome.
• Tom Kelly didn't tell him to slap the ball the other way, just to use the whole field. See Miguel Sano... when you're that strong, it's not a bad thign.
• Ortiz hit a lot of balls off the Monster in Fenway.
• Ortiz can be upset that the Twins let him go, but oh well... you ended up going to Boston to be a backup to Jeremy Giambi, but Giambi was so bad that you got a chance.
• You won World Series and become a folk hero in a huge city, becoming one of the most popular players in the league because of going there. It clearly didn't hurt your profile to go there.
• Get over it, Papi...
• Oh, and that PED stuff that because you had the good guy image, you've inexplicably been able to avoid... 

 

Uggh!

[TheLeviathan]

I definitely think Ortiz was the victim of rigidity with the Twins and we as Twins fans were victims in not getting to enjoy his abilities.

 

But I don't think the Twins deliberately tried to sabotage him, just that the way the Twins were coaching him caused the messages to get mixed with frustration from both sides.

 

It's ok to admit.  Other teams have to this happen to them too.  Sometimes you need to hear the same thing said by someone else.  And Tom Kelly, for as smart as he is, definitely struck me as the kind of guy that could wear on you.

[TheLeviathan]

Hell, when TK was doing broadcasts I could barely go 3 hours without him wearing on me.....

[Otto von Ballpark]

 

  On 5/17/2017 at 2:45 PM, Seth Stohs said:

• Ortiz can be upset that the Twins let him go, but oh well... you ended up going to Boston to be a backup to Jeremy Giambi, but Giambi was so bad that you got a chance.

Not true, Ortiz was not the "backup" to Jeremy Giambi.  They were splitting playing time 50/50 from day 1 in Boston.

[Otto von Ballpark]

 

  On 5/17/2017 at 2:45 PM, Seth Stohs said:

• Oh, and that PED stuff that because you had the good guy image, you've inexplicably been able to avoid... 

There is very little "PED stuff" that Ortiz needs avoid.  He allegedly tested positive for something in the anonymous, non-binding tests of 2003.  But so did 103 other players.  It seems due to the purpose of those tests (anonymously gauging league-wide usage), there were not strict controls and procedures to guarantee the accuracy of individual tests, as confirmed by current commissioner Rob Manfred here:

 

http://nesn.com/2016/10/david-ortizs-positive-ped-test-in-2003-wasnt-reliable-rob-manfred-says/

 

The fact is that Ortiz went on to play (and dominate) from 2005-2016 under stricter official drug testing with individual penalties and never had a positive test during that time.  Unless you want to endorse some conspiracy theories, he's virtually as clean as any other player in the game.

[rghrbek]

 

  On 5/17/2017 at 2:45 PM, Seth Stohs said:

Oh good, this dumb subject again... Heard it yesterday with the whole memoir coming out... 

 

To reiterate:

 

• Ortiz played just fine as a Twin.
• He couldn't stay healthy.
• Former teammates of his have said that he never would have lasted at the Metrodome.
• Tom Kelly didn't tell him to slap the ball the other way, just to use the whole field. See Miguel Sano... when you're that strong, it's not a bad thign.
• Ortiz hit a lot of balls off the Monster in Fenway.
• Ortiz can be upset that the Twins let him go, but oh well... you ended up going to Boston to be a backup to Jeremy Giambi, but Giambi was so bad that you got a chance.
• You won World Series and become a folk hero in a huge city, becoming one of the most popular players in the league because of going there. It clearly didn't hurt your profile to go there.
• Get over it, Papi...
• Oh, and that PED stuff that because you had the good guy image, you've inexplicably been able to avoid... 

 

Uggh!

 

I get some of the angst, because TK is one of us.

 

However, Ortiz is writing an auto biography, so this is going to be from his perspective only.  This is his story to tell.  I can understand any of us disagreeing with him, but Seth, for someone who goes out of his way to not criticize the twins, even when they deserve it, I find your rant on Ortiz, somewhat bizarre and far from objective.  It's your opinion though, I just hope we see it used more toward our local 9.

 

I do agree that TK has said nothing but positive things.  He has been 100% class in all this.

[Thrylos]

 

  On 5/17/2017 at 2:23 PM, yarnivek1972 said:

 

 

  According to the foreword written by Hrbek from the Season of Dreams book about the 1991 season, he worked with Kelly in instructional leagues in the late 70s - and presumably Gaetti since I believe they were at every level together.  Perhaps that was what I had remembered.  I guess I had the core guys that Kelly managed in the minors wrong.  He did manage Greg Gagne at AA in 1982.

 

Kelly was playing for the Twins (actually their AAA affiliate, the Mudhens back then) until and including the 1978 season.  In 1979 he became the manager of the Visalia Oaks (the Twins A affiliate) and stayed there until 1980.  In 1981 and 1982 he managed the AA Orlando Twins.  

 

Hrbek was drafted in 1978, played in Elizabethton (Rk) in 1979, Wisconsin Rapids (A) in 1980, and Visalia in 1981 (Dick Phillips was the manager) before getting called up to the Twins in September of that year for good.

 

Gaetti Was drafted in 1979, played for Elizabethton in 1979, Wisconsin Rapids in 1980, and Orlando (where Kelly was the manager) in 1981, before called up in September for good, like Hrbek

 

So, Kelly managed Gaetti for a single season in AA, and never managed Hrbek before he was established.  He might have thrown a ball or two to him at ST, that's about it.  No formal Instructional League back then, but I suspect that the Twins brought some of their younger players in Orlando (their ST home at the time) and Kelly as the Orlando manager for 2 seasons was likely around.   Not sure whether Hrbek or Gaetti were there.  To say that Kelly was crucial in developing either of them is a hyperbole...

[gunnarthor]

 

  On 5/17/2017 at 2:10 PM, raindog said:

His OPS in his final three years with the Twins: .810, .799, .839. He wasn't a crappy player. And that was with the Twins trying to get him to "hit it the other way".

Roid era. Compare him to the other DH that got as many PA as he did. His .810 OPS in 2000 was 12th out of 14, 11 out of 17 in 01 and 8 out of 16 in 02. And his WAR, if you want to use it, was just as bad or lower because of his bad baserunning even compared to other DHs. 

 

He went to Boston, roided up, failed at least one drug test, used the OJ detective agency to find out how he failed, made millions and is trying to change the narrative of his career by attacking guys like TK.  

[yarnivek1972]

 

  On 5/17/2017 at 3:01 PM, spycake said:

Not true, Ortiz was not the "backup" to Jeremy Giambi.  They were splitting playing time 50/50 from day 1 in Boston.

 

 

It's not like Boston knew they were getting a superstar.  They signed him to like a one year $ 1.25 mil contract.  In other words, nothing.

 

I'm not sure I buy Ortiz not getting a chance in Minnesota either, with the exception of keeping him in AAA all year in 1999 to let Dougie baseball play.  326 PA in 1998, 478 in 2000, 347 in 2001, 476 in 2002.  He was on the DL or dinged up a lot.  I have little doubt in my mind that he would never have succeeded in MInnesota for reasons that have nothing to do with the coaching staff.  It was the stadium.  First, Ortiz would never stay healthy playing 80 games a year on that concrete.  He couldn't do it in his early 20s.  No way he would have until his 30s, when Target Field finally opened.

 

Second, a lot of people bash the "Ortiz needs to take it the other way" approach.  The flaw is that taking it the other way is part of what made him a superstar in Boston.  How many of his doubles were off the Monster?  How many HR were OVER it?

 

According to BR, 340 of his doubles went up the middle or opposite field, compared to 185 pulled.  He pulled 297 HR, but went to center or left for 244.  Perhaps some revisionist history writers don't recall the dimensions of the Metrodome.  It was 343 feet down the left field line, 385 to left center and 408 to dead center.  Compared to 310, 379 and 389 at Fenway.  Sure the monster was 30 feet or whatever, but the point still remains.  A lot of the balls Ortiz hit off or over the Green Monster would have been outs at the Metrodome.  Frankly, the Twins did him a service by letting him go because he was simply not likely to do well in that park.

[Seth Stohs]

 

  On 5/17/2017 at 3:01 PM, spycake said:

Not true, Ortiz was not the "backup" to Jeremy Giambi.  They were splitting playing time 50/50 from day 1 in Boston.

 

OK... so yeah... splitting time with Jeremy Giambi... 

[TheGiantTeapot]

Ortiz as victim. Of course! Because... victim.

[Thrylos]

 

  On 5/17/2017 at 3:30 PM, gunnarthor said:

Roid era. Compare him to the other DH that got as many PA as he did. His .810 OPS in 2000 was 12th out of 14, 11 out of 17 in 01 and 8 out of 16 in 02. And his WAR, if you want to use it, was just as bad or lower because of his bad baserunning even compared to other DHs.

 

Irrelevant.  Those other DHs were not with the Twins. 

 

Compare him to the player who Tom Kelly and Terry Ryan chose to keep over David Ortiz:  Matt LeCroy.

 

How do they compare?   Can you imagine the Twins with Ortiz instead of what's his face as their DH in the 2006 post-season?

[raindog]

Pretty lame to accuse Ortiz of PEDs, Seth. Those 2003 tests were a joke. 

[gunnarthor]

 

  On 5/17/2017 at 3:33 PM, Thrylos said:

Irrelevant.  Those other DHs were not with the Twins. 

 

Compare him to the player who Tom Kelly and Terry Ryan chose to keep over David Ortiz:  Matt LeCroy.

 

How do they compare?   Can you imagine the Twins with Ortiz instead of what's his face as their DH in the 2006 post-season?

2003 LeCroy was slightly better by WAR and 11th out of 18, I think. And it's not irrelevant since I was responding to the other posters insinuation that his OPS were good.  They weren't.  Different era.

 

Does the 2006 Twins version of Ortiz still get the Boston PEDS?

[Thrylos]

 

  On 5/17/2017 at 3:40 PM, gunnarthor said:

 

Does the 2006 Twins version of Ortiz still get the Boston PEDS?

 

Can you prove that Ortiz used PEDs in Boston in 2006? 

Put up or shut up...

 

How do you feel about Ervin Santana, btw?

[yarnivek1972]

 

  On 5/17/2017 at 3:24 PM, Thrylos said:

Kelly was playing for the Twins (actually their AAA affiliate, the Mudhens back then) until and including the 1978 season.  In 1979 he became the manager of the Visalia Oaks (the Twins A affiliate) and stayed there until 1980.  In 1981 and 1982 he managed the AA Orlando Twins.  

 

Hrbek was drafted in 1978, played in Elizabethton (Rk) in 1979, Wisconsin Rapids (A) in 1980, and Visalia in 1981 (Dick Phillips was the manager) before getting called up to the Twins in September of that year for good.

 

Gaetti Was drafted in 1979, played for Elizabethton in 1979, Wisconsin Rapids in 1980, and Orlando (where Kelly was the manager) in 1981, before called up in September for good, like Hrbek

 

So, Kelly managed Gaetti for a single season in AA, and never managed Hrbek before he was established.  He might have thrown a ball or two to him at ST, that's about it.  No formal Instructional League back then, but I suspect that the Twins brought some of their younger players in Orlando (their ST home at the time) and Kelly as the Orlando manager for 2 seasons was likely around.   Not sure whether Hrbek or Gaetti were there.  To say that Kelly was crucial in developing either of them is a hyperbole...

 

I didn't say crucial to their development.  I said he HELPED develop them.  Please don't put words in my mouth.  And how is a direct quote hyperbole?   If you want to disagree with his impact on Hrbek specifically, fine. Just remember I'm the one with his actual words sitting two feet from me.