Article: Twins Blunder Polanco's Development

[Thrylos]

 

Maybe there was more of a focus on trading Dozier than we were aware of and a good deal never materialized. 

 

This excuse is not a valid one, since Dozier was untradable when Polanco was playing 2B in AAA.   Dozier was hitting a Butterible .202/.294/.329 in the end of May, with 5 HR in 198 PA.

 

[Mike Sixel]

I would have had him at shortstop in AAA some, or a lot. I didn't understand then, and I don't understand now. Same as never playing Sano in the outfield, if that was ever considered before last year.

[Kwak]

I think that the (old) FO had seen 3300 innings of Polanco at SS and concluded "not a MLB SS".  Combine that conclusion with the investment in both Gordon and Javier and extend it to "one of those two is 'the future' Twins SS", so stop wasting time, space, and planning on Polanco as SS and "move him to someplace he can contribute as a Minnesota Twin". There was also the issue of both Escobar (Ryan's guy) and D. Santana (Molitor's guy) to hold down SS until "the future" was ready.  Hence, no innings at SS for Polanco.

 

Let's face it, Polanco is just a placeholder at SS until the Twins decide to give the position to Gordon (or Javier)--and Escobar and D. Santana are still with the Twins!

Edited February 21, 2017 by Kwak

[Taildragger8791]

 

I think that the (old) FO had seen 3300 innings of Polanco at SS and concluded "not a MLB SS".  Combine that conclusion with the investment in both Gordon and Javier and extend it to "one of those two is 'the future' Twins SS", so stop wasting time, space, and planning on Polanco as SS and "move him to someplace he can contribute as a Minnesota Twin".

 

And how was he going to contribute anywhere else as a Twin when Sano and Dozier are locked into their respective positions? If they weren't going to play him at SS then he's only going to start about 10 games a year, when Dozier needs a rest. Or he'll have to play out of position at 3B/OF and get maybe 40-50 games, which is pretty wasteful. At that point you may as well trade him for a bag of balls or something, at least then you're putting some value to work.

Edited February 21, 2017 by Taildragger8791

[Otto von Ballpark]

 

TR exercised Polancos options in 2014,15,&16. Molitor let Polanco ride the pine rather than develop and play games in the bigs during 15.

There's some onus there on PM but not near as much as Ryan and the minor league development and coaching staff.

To be fair, Polanco's options had to be exercised those years, unless we wanted to keep him in MLB virtually the whole season (or leave him off the 40-man entirely to be selected in the Rule 5 draft). TR didn't burn really burn any options on him.

 

Polanco only has 105 days of MLB service time, and he's played in 78 games with 63 starts, so he hasn't ridden the pine too much.  The worst stretch was the week of April 26 to May 3 last year, when Polanco had 1 PA in MLB.  That was around the same time Kepler was called up to ride the pine too.

 

Polanco was still mostly relegated to the bench in his next 2016 call-up (23 PA in 16 days later in May), but he did start everyday after his late July call-up (54 starts in 60 team games).

[Taildragger8791]

 

To be fair, Polanco's options had to be exercised those years, unless we wanted to keep him in MLB virtually the whole season (or leave him off the 40-man entirely to be selected in the Rule 5 draft). TR didn't burn really burn any options on him.

 

Polanco only has 105 days of MLB service time, and he's played in 78 games with 63 starts, so he hasn't ridden the pine too much.  The worst stretch was the week of April 26 to May 3 last year, when Polanco had 1 PA in MLB.  That was around the same time Kepler was called up to ride the pine too.

 

Polanco was still mostly relegated to the bench in his next 2016 call-up (23 PA in 16 days later in May), but he did start everyday after his late July call-up (54 starts in 60 team games).

 

The thing I thought was odd about Polanco's handling is how he was used as an extra depth piece for the MLB roster whenever they needed another infielder. He was called up and down several times between 2014 and mid-2016 for stints of only a day to a week, sometimes not even to play but just to be there as bench depth. It's a highly unusual way to handle a really young and promising prospect. I'm not arguing that it messed him up (definitely not his bat), but it speaks to how little planning and forethought went into his development and the overall roster management.

Edited February 21, 2017 by Taildragger8791

[David HK]

This unholy mess was just as bad as the Sano to RF and May to the BP fiascos. (fiascii?) No excuse, boneheaded decisions. And this nonsense about 'well, we never figured he was going to be great at it anyway,' is just so much malarkey. He IS the guy we're counting on in Mlb this year, and he was the one and only realistic option in the minors, so why in heck wasn't he in the 6 spot day after day? For Molly to say, 'gee, wasn't my fault,' is just as big a can o' malarkey too. You absolutely cannot tell me the ML mgr has no input or knowledge about that kind of situation. Cripe, how long has SS been an issue here? It's not like it snuck up on anybody we've needed help there for a heck of a long time.

Pfft, to these excuses.

[gunnarthor]

 

I'm curious where you think Polanco will be if Escobar is holding down SS. Barring a trade the only other place for him is on the bench or AAA (can't remember if he was granted a 4th option?).

Third base if the Sano experiment fails, second base if they trade Dozier, bench option if he's crap at short.  Basically, he has to hit from the get-go to stay in the lineup with his defense.  Escobar was a disaster last year but he looked pretty good - offensively and defensively - before that.  

[Taildragger8791]

 

Third base if the Sano experiment fails, second base if they trade Dozier, bench option if he's crap at short.  Basically, he has to hit from the get-go to stay in the lineup with his defense.  Escobar was a disaster last year but he looked pretty good - offensively and defensively - before that.  

 

Gotcha. I just don't see 2B or 3B having any opportunities for him this year. Maybe 20-30 starts filling in for injuries and rest days. They're kind of stuck riding him out at SS to see if he can do it. It would be a waste to leave his stick and legs on the bench unless he's a total butcher at SS.

[Doomtints]

 

Maybe there was more of a focus on trading Dozier than we were aware of and a good deal never materialized. 

 

Yes. Clearly the plan was to trade Dozier and move Polanco to 2B. That's not a bad plan, and that is probably still the plan.

 

This isn't a huge deal. In, 2016, Polanco got a lot of time in the majors at SS and a lot of time in AAA at 2B (something like 55% v 45% 2B v. SS).   It's not like they moved him to DH or something, he is getting relevant middle infield experience.

[Richie the Rally Goat]

To be fair, Polanco's options had to be exercised those years, unless we wanted to keep him in MLB virtually the whole season (or leave him off the 40-man entirely to be selected in the Rule 5 draft). TR didn't burn really burn any options on him.

 

Polanco only has 105 days of MLB service time, and he's played in 78 games with 63 starts, so he hasn't ridden the pine too much. The worst stretch was the week of April 26 to May 3 last year, when Polanco had 1 PA in MLB. That was around the same time Kepler was called up to ride the pine too.

 

Polanco was still mostly relegated to the bench in his next 2016 call-up (23 PA in 16 days later in May), but he did start everyday after his late July call-up (54 starts in 60 team games).

very good points, my recollection was that he came up in 14 and 15 for a couple weeks each and played very sparingly while not playing SS in the minors. But memories fail us all

[Doomtints]

I think the takeaway is this:

 

The Twins wanted Polanco to play 2B after Dozier left. This is why there is a glut of SS players now and this is why Polanco was playing at 2B in the minors last year for the first time.

 

This is probably still the plan. Dozier could be gone at any time. When that happens Polanco slides over. This might happen tomorrow, at the trade deadline, or next offseason.

 

A lot of people who noticed Polanco playing 2B assumed it was because the Twins did not have faith in him at SS. This was an incorrect conclusion. 

Edited February 21, 2017 by Doomtints

[Seth Stohs]

 

It's nice to see Moliter be so candid. It's almost like he is fighting for his legacy.
Polanco is not the reason guys like Radcliff, Brad Steil and Rob Antony deserve to be tarred and feathered and never let back into the state of Minnesota.
He is just the latest most blatant example of the poor player development and mismanagement that has plagued this organization for at least a decade.

Falvey and Levine need to start cleaning house. I don't want any of the old player development regime to touch June's #1 pick

 

I'm sure there have  been several mistakes, as there are in every organization... But I'd like to see a list of say 5-6 more areas where we can definitively say that poor player development or "mismanagement" affected a player. 

 

For instance... was Matt Moses not getting past AA about bad player development, or some sort of mismanagement? Or, was it that Moses didn't really care too much and didn't do a lot of extra work? (not to say taht's the case)

 

Was it the Twins player development issue or mismanagement that Alex Wimmers go the yips (which they helped him correct) or need Tommy John surgery.

 

And likewise, do the Twins get credit for Brian Dozier, a senior sign 8th round pick without huge tools? Do they get credit for developing late, late round picks to the big leagues?

 

I'm not saying there aren't sometimes better ways, and Falvey and Levine will likely implement several. But they're not going to have a perfect record either. I hope that's not the expectations. 

[Eris]

 

very good points, my recollection was that he came up in 14 and 15 for a couple weeks each and played very sparingly while not playing SS in the minors. But memories fail us all

 

Your memory is correct.  Polanco was called up both in 2014 and 2015 and played in 4 or 5 games each year.  He was called up because of injuries on the MLB roster and because he was the only infielder who could be called up without making a 40 man roster move.

[Doomtints]

 

Your memory is correct.  Polanco was called up both in 2014 and 2015 and played in 4 or 5 games each year.  He was called up because of injuries on the MLB roster and because he was the only infielder who could be called up without making a 40 man roster move.

 

His memory isn't quite correct. He played SS in the minors both of those years almost exclusively.

[TheLeviathan]

 

Meh, I don't even really blame TR and Antony that much. Yeah they could have thrown him at short sometimes but I think they really never saw Polanco as a shortstop. Circumstance last year forced their hand as Nunez (not much of a SS either) was dealt and Escobar was pretty awful while Polanco's hitting forced him up to the MLB level.

 

I could buy this argument if TR and Antony had shown a history of emphasizing the importance of playing players only where they were best suited.  But that's far from the case, in fact, we have mounds of evidence to the contrary.  

[Deduno Abides]

Unless Molitor had a say in it and either agreed with the decision or didn't insist Polanco also share time at short in AAA. I find it hard to believe that Molitor wasn't at least asked or didn't share an opinion given his past work with minor leaguers, and given he was the ML manager needing a team. Polanco was either going to start at 2nd, if Dozier was traded, start at short, if no better options were acquired, be a utility infielder, if Dozier wasn't traded and a better option at short was acquired, or be traded. One of those scenarios was going to happen so he needed to be splitting time at 2nd and SS in triple A with a couple of games at 3rd thrown in. If this was Ryan's mistake alone, well then, he's gone. Frustrating, but done and gone. Seems to me they only planned for one scenario and one only. If others still there, Molitor included, were a part of that kind of decision making and planning, then I hope Falvey is giving them some long, hard looks as to their future here.

My opinion is that Polanco isn't a starting SS. He might be for us, but that's not really where he should be. I'm hoping he's better this year with better preparation. And I hope the chips start falling better moving forward.

 

I always thought that Molitor was selected over Terry Steinbach and Torey Lovullo a few years ago because Ryan thought he was most likely to go along with the existing program. It makes him a good soldier, but it also puts his hands on the problem. Yeah, sure, he's probably a baseball genius, but Lovullo and Steinbach - and probably nearly everyone else who gets an interview for a manager job - are probably also exceedingly knowledgeable about baseball. Molitor got his job because he would go along with people the best in an organization that has supremely valued getting along and loyalty.

[HitInAPinch]

 

1. General Manager - Terry Ryan (he gone)

2. VP of Player Development  - Mike Radcliff (he should go)

3. Minor League Director - Brad Steil (he should go)

4. Minor League Fielding Coordinator - Joel Lepel (he should go)

5. Polanco's manager at AAA in 2016 - Mike Quade (he should go)

 

for starters...

 

Molitor played him for 5 games at 2B and 9 games at 3B in 2016, which is also ridiculous...

In 2016, I honestly thought they were planning on using Polanco as a utility player.

[Deduno Abides]

I'm sure there have  been several mistakes, as there are in every organization... But I'd like to see a list of say 5-6 more areas where we can definitively say that poor player development or "mismanagement" affected a player.

 

Really, Seth? I mean, I can come up with four management mistakes or outright blunders in the last few years involving centerfield, just one position, and if you want five for Ryan, you can go back just ten years to how he bungled Torii Hunter's departure when he was still an All Star.

 

Then you can throw in years of damaging pitchers by handling medical issues improperly, while often shaming the guy publicly.

 

Sure, every team makes mistakes, and Ryan arguably had some successes, but the ratio for Ryan part II was among the worst.

 

Sorry to beat the dead horse after he already left the barn.

[Linus]

90% of prospects fail if you consider how many start rookie ball. It's the nature of the game.

[Squirrel]

 

I always thought that Molitor was selected over Terry Steinbach and Torey Lovullo a few years ago because Ryan thought he was most likely to go along with the existing program. It makes him a good soldier, but it also puts his hands on the problem. Yeah, sure, he's probably a baseball genius, but Lovullo and Steinbach - and probably nearly everyone else who gets an interview for a manager job - are probably also exceedingly knowledgeable about baseball. Molitor got his job because he would go along with people the best in an organization that has supremely valued getting along and loyalty.

Maybe I wasn't clear ... and if you saw what I responding to ... I think Molitor was part of the decision, and part of the problem. As I said, I find it hard to believe that he wasn't asked for input and didn't insist on anything different than what was done.

[Darius]

Polanco's not the only one. When a player turns into something out of the Twins system, it's typically one of two things: 1) A miracle (Dozier) 2) The guy was developmentally fool-proof (Mauer, Sano).

[Deduno Abides]

Maybe I wasn't clear ... and if you saw what I responding to ... I think Molitor was part of the decision, and part of the problem. As I said, I find it hard to believe that he wasn't asked for input and didn't insist on anything different than what was done.

Hi ChiTown, I agree with you. At best, I think Molitor was likely passive when he could have had a chance to speak up, and I think that one of the reasons he was hired is that he wouldn't challenge Ryan's plans.

 

-DA

[Doomtints]

 

Polanco's not the only one. When a player turns into something out of the Twins system, it's typically one of two things: 1) A miracle (Dozier) 2) The guy was developmentally fool-proof (Mauer, Sano).

 

That's harsh, even by my standards!

[TheLeviathan]

 

Hi ChiTown, I agree with you. At best, I think Molitor was likely passive when he could have had a chance to speak up, and I think that one of the reasons he was hired is that he wouldn't challenge Ryan's plans.

-DA

 

I don't think we should expect Molitor to be pouring over minor league box scores to make sure people are playing where they are supposed to in AAA or AA or wherever.

 

That's not his job. 

[Deduno Abides]

I don't think we should expect Molitor to be pouring over minor league box scores to make sure people are playing where they are supposed to in AAA or AA or wherever.

 

That's not his job.

 

Sorry, Levi, but when you're managing a last place team that is running out stopgaps like Danny Santana, Eduardo Escobar and Eduardo Nunez, some of whom may be traded and some of whom don't belong in the majors, part of your job is to know who in the minors might be able to help you win games and when they might be ready to help you. Edited February 21, 2017 by Deduno Abides

[TheLeviathan]

But it's not his job to dictate where those managers are playing those players.

 

You are blaming the middle manager for not doing the CEO's job.

[mikelink45]

 

I suppose one could even make the argument that bringing Mauer up as a catcher despite his body type was ill-advised, and could make the point that if he had converted to 3B after being drafted we'd still be talking our future HOF 3rd baseman and face of the franchise.

No.  Mauer was a HOF catcher and I have no criticism of that.  I am not trying to stretch every decision to be a poor one. 

[clutterheart]

I'm not saying there aren't sometimes better ways, and Falvey and Levine will likely implement several. But they're not going to have a perfect record either. I hope that's not the expectations.

?

So do you think Twins player development, drafting and self scouting is a strength of the team?

 

If so that would be an....interesting take

[Richie the Rally Goat]

But it's not his job to dictate where those managers are playing those players.

 

You are blaming the middle manager for not doing the CEO's job.

middle managers are a part of the succession process, not just the CEO