While this could be discussed in today's Winter Meetings thread, I think that the Chris Sale trade warrants its own thread.

 

Chris Sale to the Red Sox in exchange for Yoan Moncada, Michael Kopech and two more prospects.

 

 

1.) Sale is out of the AL Central.

2.) The White Sox got a great haul! Moncada's the #1 prospect in baseball, and Kopech has a 100 mph fastball and is a starter. 

 

Dave Dombrowski is certainly aggressive. Will Sale stay healthy? Do the Red Sox use throwback uniforms?

Wow, this is a hell of a trade. Kudos to the Red Sox for continuing to be aggressive. 

Hloy ****

David Price

Chris Sale

Porcello

Rodríguez

Wright

 

what an amazing rotation...on paper

I've always been jealous of the White Sox having Sale, but didn't the Red Sox just do this last year?

 

An ace lefty with diminishing velocity, how did that David Price deal work out last year? Geez, and Sale is more of a flyball pitcher than Price and he's going to Fenway.

 

Maybe it will work out, but I have my doubts so I'll be glad if Boston sabotages their stud offensive nucleus with a rotation that's past it's peak. Not thrilled to see this return for the White Sox at all. 

I don't know, i didn't really mind having Sale around.  I'm more disappointed the White Sox did something smart.

IMO the White Sox had a sale... on Sale

http://cdn.chud.com/d/d8/d8123388_csimaimigif.gif

 

I don't know, i didn't really mind having Sale around.  I'm more disappointed the White Sox did something smart.

 

Still 3 months left to go... One can hope they'll trade Moncada to the Reds for Joey Votto or some other expensive veteran out there. 

Yoan Moncada and stuff for 3 years of Sale is great news for Twins fans.

White Sox screw themselves, again.

 

IMO the White Sox had a sale... on Sale

http://cdn.chud.com/d/d8/d8123388_csimaimigif.gif

Would you be willing to say they had a.... FIRE Sale??

http://www.socialwelfareagency.org/Public/Graphics/GIFs/CSI_Miami.gif

Dombrowski does what he does: Gut the farm system for veterans and try to win now. Then leave in a few years when everybody gets old. 

 

Dombrowski does what he does: Gut the farm system for veterans and try to win now. Then leave in a few years when everybody gets old. 

 

Yeah, it's a good thing he got there after Betts, Bogaerts, and Bradley got to the majors. The team would probably still have Adrian Gonzalez, Josh Beckett and Carl Crawford too.

 

I mean good for him for going for it, but just like how I didn't like Terry Ryan trying the same strategy over and over and over again, Dombrowski's never changing tactic also hasn't paid off in a championship in two decades now. That's a really good team though, maybe this year.

The other 2 prospects included in the trade is 20 year old Luis Basabe who already has a big K problem in A ball, and Victor Diaz, 22 year old RP with a big fastball and not much else. 

 

I've always been jealous of the White Sox having Sale, but didn't the Red Sox just do this last year?

 

An ace lefty with diminishing velocity, how did that David Price deal work out last year? Geez, and Sale is more of a flyball pitcher than Price and he's going to Fenway.

 

Maybe it will work out, but I have my doubts so I'll be glad if Boston sabotages their stud offensive nucleus with a rotation that's past it's peak. Not thrilled to see this return for the White Sox at all. 

 

Well, they won their division and made the playoffs....so, it worked out well, if not in a championship.

 

Yoan Moncada and stuff for 3 years of Sale is great news for Twins fans.

White Sox screw themselves, again.

 

Huh? They got the #1 prospect in baseball, a good SP prospect, and two more pieces.....how did they screw themselves, exactly? 

 

Dombrowski does what he does: Gut the farm system for veterans and try to win now. Then leave in a few years when everybody gets old. 

 

In fairness, that's what they hired him to do, right?

 

Take the great assets the previous guys acquired, and trade them off for the present?

not a good trade for the twins. in 107.1 total innings against sale, they scored at an e.r.a. clip of 4.28. that's higher than league average in every season since sale's debut in 2010.

 

Huh? They got the #1 prospect in baseball, a good SP prospect, and two more pieces.....how did they screw themselves, exactly? 

Sale is a #1 who will be providing MLB wins immediately. Moncada likely will require at least one option year, maybe three. Maybe he never provides MLB wins. But he'll need to be rostered while they "find out what they have." Its a huge risk. And the upside is overblown IMO. Being the #1 prospect and a second baseman is almost an oxymoron. Second base is the landing spot for failed SS and 3Bs. He would have to hit like Jeff Kent to reach his supposed Hall of Fame ceiling.

 

Kopech doesn't have the pitches to start. His fastball is legit and being a MLB bullpen arm wouldn't be a terrible outcome but that's again, the landing spot for failed starters. Then there are the character questions ie. missing time for breaking his hand in a fight and using banned substance and being suspended.

The other two look like throw ins.

 

And compared to packages for example,, a half season of Chapman, it just seems like an exceedingly poor strategy to deal him at this time, for a fairly  similar return. IMO.

Edited December 6, 20169 yr by Willihammer

 

Sale is a #1 who will be providing MLB wins immediately. Moncada likely will require at least one option year, maybe three. Maybe he never provides MLB wins. But he'll need to be rostered while they "find out what they have." Its a huge risk. And the upside is overblown IMO. Being the #1 prospect and a second baseman is almost an oxymoron. Second base is the landing spot for failed SS and 3Bs. He would have to hit like Jeff Kent to reach his supposed Hall of Fame ceiling.

 

Kopech doesn't have the pitches to start. His fastball is legit and being a MLB bullpen arm wouldn't be a terrible outcome but that's again, the landing spot for failed starters. Then there are the character questions ie. missing time for breaking his hand in a fight and using banned substance and being suspended.

The other two look like throw ins.

 

And compared to packages for example,, a half season of Chapman, it just seems like an exceedingly poor strategy to deal him at this time, for a fairly  similar return. IMO.

 

so they should have kept him, and not made the playoffs again? Seems like a bad strategy to me. At some point, you realize you aren't good, and trade your stars to rebuild (I know as a Twins' fan, that seems odd.......).

 

So, getting the number 1 prospect in the game, that's not a good start on the rebuild? Not sure I understand, and whether you like it or not, he's pretty much number 1 or 2 or 4....not 20, not 100....

 

Do the Red Sox use throwback uniforms?

You had to go there...

 

Don't the Red Sox pretty much always wear "throwback" uniforms?    They never went through any of the hideous phases that the pale hose did.

 

 

Edited December 6, 20169 yr by Physics Guy

Seems like a fair deal to me.  The #1 prospect, another top 100 guy and two upside(?) prospects who may or may not work out.  

 

so they should have kept him, and not made the playoffs again? Seems like a bad strategy to me. At some point, you realize you aren't good, and trade your stars to rebuild (I know as a Twins' fan, that seems odd.......).

 

So, getting the number 1 prospect in the game, that's not a good start on the rebuild? Not sure I understand, and whether you like it or not, he's pretty much number 1 or 2 or 4....not 20, not 100....

Its not actually a forgone conclusion that they will be bad next year or the year after that (or 2019). They finished with 78 wins last year.

 

I'm curious. At what point do you think teams should launch into rebuild?

 

not a good trade for the twins. in 107.1 total innings against sale, they scored at an e.r.a. clip of 4.28. that's higher than league average in every season since sale's debut in 2010.

 

Agree - plus, I enjoyed watching the White Sox resist the rebuild, sign past their prime free-agents, and have no prospects. This sets a dangerous precedent.

 

 

Its not actually a forgone conclusion that they will be bad next year or the year after that (or 2019). They finished with 78 wins last year.

 

I'm curious. At what point do you think teams should launch into rebuild?

 

That's very context dependent.....how old is the team, how do the minors look, are you close to your payroll cap, how does the rest of your division look?

 

On the last, the AL Central is terrible outside CLE, so that says keep trying.

But, I think the rest of it screams rebuild to me.

 

They don't have a ton of minor league stuff, and they are VERY top heavy, a few stars, and some terrible players. IF there were any FAs this year, and IF they had money, and IF they could go from terrible to average in a few spots, it might work. But, they aren't competing for a WC probably, not with TX, Hou, NYY, TOR, and BOS all looking good again next year....and the year after.

I heard Frazier might be on the move. Any rumblings about Quintana, Abreu, Eaton? Or do the White Sox think they can still get back into contention without Sale, sorta like the 2008 Twins after dealing Johan?

There is no doubt that the Red Sox paid a huge amount for Sale but this is Dombrowski doing what he does best. He acquires elite players in these deals and despite continual warnings of depleted farm systems and impending crash due to old and aging players his teams are continually competitive and winning 90+ games/season and division crowns.

Just to put this into perspective - We had these same discussions about Dombrowski and the Tigers back when BYTO started in 2006. Since then the Tigers have had 2 losing seasons and have been one of the top teams over that time frame. Their impending doom never happened.

 

If you are going to make these deals then get elite guys like Sale. btw - David Price had a great year unless of course you are only capable of evaluating a SP by ERA.

Quintana is around for 4 more years, me? I keep him, and see what I have this year in the players I just got and others......four years is a long time. That said, if you can get De Leon and Bellinger for him, plus 1 lottery ticket, I seriosly consdier it. You'd have 1b/RF and 3B/CF/LF locked up in Bellinger and Moncada (some think he should be a CF and Bellinger could play a corner OF spot), and would have De Leon (a three maybe) and a few SP prospects in the minors.....

 

I probably deal Abreu, if he has value, at this point. 

 

Eaton is around for 3 years......I probably deal him, if I can get a legit SP prospect and a flyer for him.

 

Put Moncada in CF, Bellinger in RF or LF (or even 1B), put De Leon at SP and then see what else you have  from Abreu and Eaton.....

Heck, looking at what I just typed, if you like Moncada more than Buxton, and Bellinger and Sano are equal, and De Leon = Berrios.....they look a lot like the Twins.....which might be good or bad...

 

There is no doubt that the Red Sox paid a huge amount for Sale but this is Dombrowski doing what he does best. He acquires elite players in these deals and despite continual warnings of depleted farm systems and impending crash due to old and aging players his teams are continually competitive and winning 90+ games/season and division crowns.

Just to put this into perspective - We had these same discussions about Dombrowski and the Tigers back when BYTO started in 2006. Since then the Tigers have had 2 losing seasons and have been one of the top teams over that time frame. Their impending doom never happened.

 

If you are going to make these deals then get elite guys like Sale. btw - David Price had a great year unless of course you are only capable of evaluating a SP by ERA.

In fairness a large factor prolonging the crash has been the signing of big FAs. Their farm system isn't anything to get excited about but the big league team has been competitive because they can supplement with FAs. It isn't an ineffective strategy, its just more extreme. I think the biggest issue I have with it is that once the core of the team ages, you're stuck with an expensive, mediocre team with no young reinforcements on the way. Thats a long, ugly rebuild, but the Twins went the opposite route and we've seen the results of that so far....

Nationals interested in Quintana now:

 

http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2016/12/nationals-interested-in-jose-quintana.html?fv-home=true&post-id=79592

Its not actually a forgone conclusion that they will be bad next year or the year after that (or 2019). They finished with 78 wins last year.

 

I'm curious. At what point do you think teams should launch into rebuild?

High level: when you keep doing the same thing with mostly the same personnel year after year and it's not working.