POTUS Donald Trump

[gunnarthor]

 

Well, I'm not telling anyone how to protest. Or not to protest.

I think I'm telling them why I believe their choice is not only a poor one, but counterproductive.

You want to know why Democrats have a hard time winning elections? One reason is they let, or cause in this case, conversations about bad cops become conversations about standing for the anthem.

And they lose that conversation. Every time.

There was a conversation about bad cops? How'd that work out? What changes happened after Tamir Rice was murdered? Or Jamal Clark and Philando Castillo? Walter Scott? This isn't the Democrats fault because the Democrats have been bad on this issue, too.

 

 

[USAFChief]

 

Someone posted a tweet on the site yesterday that read 'I'm a vet & if you think I served so football players could take a knee during the anthem to protest injustice...you'd be right.'

I couldnt agree more.

I'm also a vet, and I also agree 100 percent.  They certainly can.

 

I also think it's a really, really poor choice.  Wrong, and counterproductive.  

[USAFChief]

 

There was a conversation about bad cops? How'd that work out? What changes happened after Tamir Rice was murdered? Or Jamal Clark and Philando Castillo? Walter Scott? This isn't the Democrats fault because the Democrats have been bad on this issue, too.

There was one.  Or there could have been, at least.

 

Now the conversation is about standing during the anthem. 

[gunnarthor]

 

There was one.  Or there could have been, at least.

 

Now the conversation is about standing during the anthem. 

No, the conversation is about how racist our President is.

http://www.cnn.com/2017/09/28/politics/donald-trump-nfl-owners-afraid-of-their-players-health-care/index.html

[Craig Arko]

http://www.theonion.com/blogpost/i-just-wish-nfl-players-could-find-a-way-to-protes-53971

[gunnarthor]

 

http://www.theonion.com/blogpost/i-just-wish-nfl-players-could-find-a-way-to-protes-53971

That was so spot on I wish I could give you all the thumbs!

[jimmer]

http://www.theonion.com/blogpost/i-just-wish-nfl-players-could-find-a-way-to-protes-53971

pure awesomeness.

[D. Hocking]

Whether you should stand or not, it bothers me that Trump tries to come off so self-righteous in all of this.  As if a number of things he have done have not been much more disrespectful to the country.  Mocking a vet by saying real heroes don't get captured, recently physically mocking said vet (who now has terminal cancer) by imitating him not being able to lift up his arms (due to injuries as a POW); multiple medical deferments to avoid the draft while clearly physically active; criticizing a gold star family; not to mention CONSTANTLY lying to the American people about EVERYTHING.

 

They way he stirs up his base feeding them what they want to hear reminds me of the Sinclair Lewis statement:

 

"When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross."

 

I do think people should stand for the anthem, but I do think it is more disrespectful to the country and the flag for the President to try to use/abuse his position of authority to threaten people not to protest and march lock step with what he wants.  Esp. since he probably does not give a damn about the flag and is only doing this to throw red meat to his base (at least initially, now he is probably just doubling down because he was challenged/criticized, and he can never be wrong on anything or even consider another view).

[drjim]

Whether you should stand or not, it bothers me that Trump tries to come off so self-righteous in all of this. As if a number of things he have done have not been much more disrespectful to the country. Mocking a vet by saying real heroes don't get captured, recently physically mocking said vet (who now has terminal cancer) by imitating him not being able to lift up his arms (due to injuries as a POW); multiple medical deferments to avoid the draft while clearly physically active; criticizing a gold star family; not to mention CONSTANTLY lying to the American people about EVERYTHING.

 

They way he stirs up his base feeding them what they want to hear reminds me of the Sinclair Lewis statement:

 

"When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross."

 

I do think people should stand for the anthem, but I do think it is more disrespectful to the country and the flag for the President to try to use/abuse his position of authority to threaten people not to protest and march lock step with what he wants. Esp. since he probably does not give a damn about the flag and is only doing this to throw red meat to his base (at least initially, now he is probably just doubling down because he was challenged/criticized, and he can never be wrong on anything or even consider another view).

Just wait until when someone like Trump gets elected and they actually know what they're doing.

[PseudoSABR]

 

You've all managed to make Donald Trump appear to most people as on the right side of an issue, and an issue that consumes all the oxygen in the room.

How are you making that determination?

 

There's this poll that suggests: "According to a survey conducted this week by the Seton Hall Sports Poll, 84% of Americans surveyed support NFL players’ right to protest—even if they vary on how they feel the protest should be carried out."

 

You want to know why Democrats have a hard time winning elections? One reason is they let, or cause in this case, conversations about bad cops become conversations about standing for the anthem.

 This sounds like the kind of logic that promotes candidates like Hillary Clinton, who really didn't take a stance on much of anything for fear of precisely what you imply.  We all know how that went.

 

At some point, you have to stop trying to 'win' elections, or playing to some demographic (rural whites) that pull values and principals towards this bland non-offensive platform.   

 

I think you're selling sincerity and passion very, very short.  

[twinsnorth49]

Check out @JRandalWard42’s Tweet:

[biggentleben]

 

As a matter of fact, yes. I'm offended when people don't stand for the anthem.

I'm also offended by racial inequality...to a much higher degree.

But not standing for the anthem does NOTHING to address that. It only serves to distract from that issue. And by doing so, make it LESS likely that anything constructive happens.

You've all managed to make Donald Trump appear to most people as on the right side of an issue, and an issue that consumes all the oxygen in the room.

Congrats.

 

So the fact that the kneeling was originally started in order to HONOR military members matters not? The reason that Kaepernick is kneeling is to honor those in uniform who have given their lives in defense of freedom, in much the same way a soldier will kneel at a fallen soldier's grave. It's part of the actual story of the entire issue that has been lost along the way (and bastardized by the NFL recently in their attempt to turn it into "unity").

[biggentleben]

 

Check out @JRandalWard42’s Tweet:

 

Interesting he quotes Jackie Robinson, who was known to say that he could not (and would not) stand or kneel for the anthem due to what he had experienced in his life, both in his military service time and in his time as a racial pioneer in the game of baseball.

 

Of course, we've made this an issue with our own forced patriotism. When the league national anthem conduct rules were first put into writing, the only designated game(s) that the anthem was to be played for was a championship game. Before 2009, players were not expected to be on the sidelines during the anthem, and most of them weren't. Then a huge DOD and NFL deal brought tons of money to the league in order to promote the military and, in order to make them look better, players were very strongly encouraged to be on the sideline during the anthem from that point forward.

[twinsnorth49]

Interesting he quotes Jackie Robinson, who was known to say that he could not (and would not) stand or kneel for the anthem due to what he had experienced in his life, both in his military service time and in his time as a racial pioneer in the game of baseball.

 

Of course, we've made this an issue with our own forced patriotism. When the league national anthem conduct rules were first put into writing, the only designated game(s) that the anthem was to be played for was a championship game. Before 2009, players were not expected to be on the sidelines during the anthem, and most of them weren't. Then a huge DOD and NFL deal brought tons of money to the league in order to promote the military and, in order to make them look better, players were very strongly encouraged to be on the sideline during the anthem from that point forward.

He's talking about the act of kneeling becoming the issue, as opposed to being focused on something more important and meaningful.

 

Your post pretty much validates his point.

[PseudoSABR]

The protest and the message are inextricably linked.  Refusing to 'shut up' (and stand up) when dominant culture tells you to is in the same vein of oppression that lead to the protest in the first place.  

 

It is not the protester that seeks to draw attention to the method, it is the person who refuses to heed the meaningfulness of that message or to allow that message to gain the necessary attention it deserves.   

 

The whole association of the military = patriotism = flag is rotten at the core.  It's completely reasonable for people to not take pride in their country if they believe that country does not pursue their best interests.  What's unreasonable is to expect people to honor that country in spite of how they actually feel to avoid some perceived offense.

[USAFChief]

The protest and the message are inextricably linked.  Refusing to 'shut up' (and stand up) when dominant culture tells you to is in the same vein of oppression that lead to the protest in the first place.  

 

It is not the protester that seeks to draw attention to the method, it is the person who refuses to heed the meaningfulness of that message or to allow that message to gain the necessary attention it deserves.   

 

The whole association of the military = patriotism = flag is rotten at the core.  It's completely reasonable for people to not take pride in their country if they believe that country does not pursue their best interests.  What's unreasonable is to expect people to honor that country in spite of how they actually feel to avoid some perceived offense.

Sorry Pseudo...IMO every word you've written here is wrong.

 

Kneeling HAS become the issue, not inequity. The message has been lost in favor of the protest.

[USAFChief]

So the fact that the kneeling was originally started in order to HONOR military members matters not? The reason that Kaepernick is kneeling is to honor those in uniform who have given their lives in defense of freedom, in much the same way a soldier will kneel at a fallen soldier's grave. It's part of the actual story of the entire issue that has been lost along the way (and bastardized by the NFL recently in their attempt to turn it into "unity").

Link please?

[Craig Arko]

 

Sorry Pseudo...IMO every word you've written here is wrong.

Kneeling HAS become the issue, not inequity. The message has been lost in favor of the protest.

What's your alternative plan, then?

[Mike Sixel]

 

Sorry Pseudo...IMO every word you've written here is wrong.

Kneeling HAS become the issue, not inequity. The message has been lost in favor of the protest.

 

mostly because the Right has found a way to make it about kneeling, and we have capitulated on that front too much.

 

And, in case you aren't aware, the vast majority of whites thought freedom riders and cafe sitters were using the wrong method, and it was about the method too much, and not about the message. This is, literally, history repeating itself. 

[PseudoSABR]

 

Sorry Pseudo...IMO every word you've written here is wrong.

Kneeling HAS become the issue, not inequity. The message has been lost in favor of the protest.

To some extent it has, and it's not the horrible result you suggest it is---the act of protesting and the reaction against is part-and-parcel with systemic oppression minorities face.  It's why Trump's word motivated so many to finally kneel.  (Trumps comments yesterday that the owners were 'scared' of the players, I think, underscores the common racial comment here, that too many sweep away.)  I do think if there were a bunch of white baseball players kneeling for cancer, we'd see a very different reaction.  

 

I think you're (earned) attachment to the flag as a symbol of military pride obscures your ability to see how ridiculous is to demand these players be fired for a peaceful, and even solemn, protest.   

 

Does it matter that we're not talking about cops killing black men, and were talking about how owners might fire a bunch a black for airing their grievances?  I don't think those conversations are as world's apart as you suggest they are.  

[Craig Arko]

 

mostly because the Right has found a way to make it about kneeling, and we have capitulated on that front too much.

 

And, in case you aren't aware, the vast majority of whites thought freedom riders and cafe sitters were using the wrong method, and it was about the method too much, and not about the message. This is, literally, history repeating itself. 

And it's not much of a stretch to think this won't be the last time.

 

Chief and I were both kids during the 60's; we seem to remember that time through very different lenses from what I can tell.

[twinsnorth49]

 

mostly because the Right has found a way to make it about kneeling, and we have capitulated on that front too much.

 

And, in case you aren't aware, the vast majority of whites thought freedom riders and cafe sitters were using the wrong method, and it was about the method too much, and not about the message. This is, literally, history repeating itself. 

I have no problem with their method and I understand perfectly what it represents (as do most intelligent people I believe). 

 

While the method of the cafe sitters and freedom riders was derided, the message was ultimately much more clear. Sadly, I don't think that is the case in this situation, it's much more divisive.

 

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

Just wait until when someone like Trump gets elected and they actually know what they're doing.

and Trump has opened the door for that person, whoever they are

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

Here is a link with a Kaepernick timeline; Sept. 1st was when he decided to kneel out of respect, instead of staying sitting on the bench.

 

https://www.sbnation.com/2016/9/11/12869726/colin-kaepernick-national-anthem-protest-seahawks-brandon-marshall-nfl

[USAFChief]

 

To some extent it has, and it's not the horrible result you suggest it is---the act of protesting and the reaction against is part-and-participle with systemic oppression minorities face.  It's why Trump's word motivated so many to finally kneel.  (Trumps comments yesterday that the owners were 'scared' of the players, I think, underscores the common racial comment here, that too many sweep away.)  I do think if there were a bunch of white baseball players kneeling for cancer, we'd see a very different reaction.  

 

I think you're (earned) attachment to the flag as a symbol of military pride obscures your ability to see how ridiculous is to demand these players be fired for a peaceful, and even solemn, protest.   

 

Does it matter that we're not talking about cops killing black men, and were talking about how owners might fire a bunch a black for airing their grievances?  I don't think those conversations are as world's apart as you suggest they are.  

To be perfectly clear, I think it's absolutely ridiculous to demand anyone be fired.  

 

I am no Trump supporter.

 

But I stand by my belief the protest method is disrespectful in and of itself, and further by being so, loses it's impact and gives those who would ignore it exactly what they need to do so.

[D. Hocking]

This is a real quote from his speech today.  I thought that cannot be possible - even for him, and then heard the actual sound clip word for word.

 

Pres. Trump on Puerto Rico disaster response: "This is an island, surrounded by water, big water, ocean water."

 

He then went on to talk about the bad infrastructure and the existing debt and how they will need to figure out funding.  “The government of Puerto Rico will have to work with us to determine how” rebuilding efforts will be funded and organized"

 

He did mention he will make sure everyone is safe, but he sure seems to treat Puerto Rico differently than Texas and Florida.

 

This wise poster's words of wisdom can probably not be said enough:

 

I really hate Trump. 

 

[Squirrel]

 

This is a real quote from his speech today.  I thought that cannot be possible - even for him, and then heard the actual sound clip word for word.

 

Pres. Trump on Puerto Rico disaster response: "This is an island, surrounded by water, big water, ocean water."

 

He then went on to talk about the bad infrastructure and the existing debt and how they will need to figure out funding.  “The government of Puerto Rico will have to work with us to determine how” rebuilding efforts will be funded and organized"

 

He did mention he will make sure everyone is safe, but he sure seems to treat Puerto Rico differently than Texas and Florida.

 

This wise poster's words of wisdom can probably not be said enough:

Talked today to the building engineer and one of the maintenance guys in my building. They have both now heard from their families in PR and all made it through the storm. However ... from what they said, it is far, far, far worse than what we are seeing on the news here. There are some areas unreachable and completely cut off and getting any kind of aid there is near impossible. Near San Juan is a little bit better equipped with resources, but outside of that there is no water, no fuel, no access to food, no access to medical care, most everything is destroyed, that aid can't even reach places. He said that that Katrina is nothing compared to the death and destruction there. If they made it through the storms and the floods, people are literally dying from no food or water, and injuries and disease. Their words according to their families.

 

And Trump is worried about how they are going to rebuild? Most there are worried about being able to live through another day as he plays around not doing much nor in a timely manner.

[Badsmerf]

To play devil's advocate... should they not be treated differently? They aren't officially a state, don't have senators or congresswomen, don't contribute to the US economy/taxes (speculation on my part).

 

I don't believe they should be treated differently, just posing a question. I think they should be fully integrated into the US in all facets. We owned Alaska for 80 years before it became a state fyi.

[Craig Arko]

Taxation in Puerto Rico.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taxation_in_Puerto_Rico

[Badsmerf]

Taxation in Puerto Rico.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taxation_in_Puerto_Rico

Wiki is awesome (the byto wiki notwithstanding). They get some benefits and pay in a good amount. Seems like it is one foot in and one out. I'm sure it is better than being their own country, but becoming a state would be much better.