POTUS Donald Trump

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

Why would Warren be out talking to rural voters except possibly the rural voters in Massachusetts? That sounds like phony glad-handing someone would do during a campaign.

I'm just spitballing. And there's no campaign right now, so no better time.

 

I bet someone like Klobuchar has a ton of personal goodwill banked with the other side. Time to start spending it down. Actually the time was the last four years. Seeing that Klobuchar went on a Sunday show and called Trump a bad president does nothing for me. Seeing Warren being censored by Republicans trying to read a letter doesn't tell me anything I don't already know about Warren or Republicans.

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

Where do I send the bill for the 4 minutes of my life I would like to have back?

Tell us what the video is - pay it forward

[TheLeviathan]

 

How people find trump more honest and decent and less dangerous than Clinton I can't fathom but that's obviously a problem the dems and left in general need to do some real searching about.

 

I think this is the issue the left needs to look at.  And that soul-searching needs to happen introspectively.  Some of it is certainly shady Republican behavior, but a great deal of it stems from the left's own behavior.  

 

There is widespread support for Democrat platforms and ideas.  Why those are not translated into election wins should be the paramount concern.  Speaking only for myself, I have trouble fully buying into "Team Left" because there is such a strong current of "we all think this way and if you step out of bounds we will tear you apart without mercy"  There is self-cannibalization and vitriol so strong there it's hard to really buy in.  I tend to think for myself and I don't appreciate any disagreement I have turning me into some sort of monster.  

 

And this is exactly what played out in the Bernie-bros vs. Clinton supporters running up to the election.  Rather than find widespread agreement, slight differences were blown enormously out of proportion to create a divide that never really existed.  And they didn't need the Republicans help, they did that all by themselves.

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

There is widespread support for Democrat platforms and ideas.  Why those are not translated into election wins should be the paramount concern.

 

Agree completely, though I attribute it more to snobbery that vitriol. If your concerns have never been smugly dismissed by a Democratic officeholder*, you are truly missing out on a life changing experience.

 

*not all Democrats

 

Also, being portrayed for years by Republicans as weak and pretentious, without fighting back against that, has made their task even more difficult.

[TheLeviathan]

 

Agree completely, though I attribute it more to snobbery that vitriol. If your concerns have never been smugly dismissed by a Democratic officeholder*, you are truly missing out on a life changing experience.

*not all Democrats

Also, being portrayed for years by Republicans as weak and pretentious, without fighting back against that, has made their task even more difficult.

 

Not just Democrats in office, that's a lefty thing.  The snobbery is kind of real and certainly out of touch with many people.  The people on the right have their own issues, certainly, but nothing drives away a blue collar voter like making them feel inferior, out of touch, or whatever.

 

And that's a common left-wing assault.  You saw it with the Bernie vs. Clinton supporters, it got snobby and nasty so quickly.  Hell, last night I was reading about the Science March and how a few scientists tried to ask for the march to be less about racism, gender politics, LGBTQ issues, etc. and more about the merits of science and lefties were all over them on Twitter.

 

Why?  Maybe you disagree with his assertion, that might be valid.  But none of those lobbed criticisms of his position have ANYTHING to do with what he was saying.  He wasn't condemning those issues, he was suggesting their inclusion might hurt the cause.  Why cannibalize him for that?  Not only do you miss the point, but you're oppressively snobby and annoying in doing so.

 

Maybe it's just me, but that sort of thing just drives me away.  How could I possibly want to be on the same team as people like that?  Pinker?  Sign me up, he seems thoughtful (left leaning by the way), and wants to achieve a greater appreciation for science.  The fools attacking him?  No way.  

[nicksaviking]

Is this smugness and snobbery a real thing with left wing politicians, or just a narrative that the right has somehow manufactured and people who want to believe it embrace it with gusto? Because for every smug Democratic politician moment, I seem to recall about a dozen from the other side. I don't think Trump or Ted Cruz have any other demeanor than smug.

 

Or is the smugness and snobbery more coming from a faction of leftwing supporters? Because if that's the case, so what? You're not voting for those people, they're just annoying %$^&s. Every party has annoying %$^& supporters.

[Mike Sixel]

 

Is this smugness and snobbery a real thing with left wing politicians, or just a narrative that the right has somehow manufactured and people who want to believe it embrace it with gusto? Because for every smug Democratic politician moment, I seem to recall about a dozen from the other side. I don't think Trump or Ted Cruz have any other demeanor than smug.

 

Or is the smugness and snobbery more coming from a faction of leftwing supporters? Because if that's the case, so what? You're not voting for those people, they're just annoying %$^&s. Every party has annoying %$^& supporters.

 

IMO, it's like hating the BoSox because their fans are annoying......only worse, because you are doing it with something that matters.

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

Sorry to temporarily hijack the thread, but I think it's important. Yeah I will admit there's a little bit of emotion speaking.

 

However, I am still waiting to see a sustained effort by Democrats to go talk with their constituents and take action. That is the only way I feel "our side" will get anything meaningful done or re-earn anyone's respect. Should I hold my breath? That is what I am wondering.

[Mike Sixel]

 

Sorry to temporarily hijack the thread, but I think it's important. Yeah I will admit there's a little bit of emotion speaking.

However, I am still waiting to see a sustained effort by Democrats to go talk with their constituents and take action. That is the only way I feel "our side" will get anything meaningful done or re-earn anyone's respect. Should I hold my breath? That is what I am wondering.

 

Just curious, do you have any proof they don't hold town hall meetings, visit parades, etc? Because having worked on the Hill, that's a big part of what they do.....

[TheLeviathan]

 

Is this smugness and snobbery a real thing with left wing politicians, or just a narrative that the right has somehow manufactured and people who want to believe it embrace it with gusto? Because for every smug Democratic politician moment, I seem to recall about a dozen from the other side. I don't think Trump or Ted Cruz have any other demeanor than smug.

 

Or is the smugness and snobbery more coming from a faction of leftwing supporters? Because if that's the case, so what? You're not voting for those people, they're just annoying %$^&s. Every party has annoying %$^& supporters.

 

The Tea Party was just a "faction" too (How many of you remember Republicans going on TV downplaying some of the craziness?  I sure as hell do) but when a faction becomes aggressive and vocal enough it can force it's views to be over-represented.  Or to make people cower from challenging them.

 

So, yeah, it probably isn't a majority on the left, but if you stand by and do nothing while letting these whack jobs set the tone.....are you really blameless?  If you sit back and do nothing while they grow more and more assertive in their bat-**** crazy approach, are you really blameless?  I sure as hell don't find the Republicans who let the crazies seep into full control on their side off the hook.  Why would I for the other side?

[nicksaviking]

 

The Tea Party was just a "faction" too (How many of you remember Republicans going on TV downplaying some of the craziness?  I sure as hell do) but when a faction becomes aggressive and vocal enough it can force it's views to be over-represented.  Or to make people cower from challenging them.

 

So, yeah, it probably isn't a majority on the left, but if you stand by and do nothing while letting these whack jobs set the tone.....are you really blameless?  If you sit back and do nothing while they grow more and more assertive in their bat-**** crazy approach, are you really blameless?  I sure as hell don't find the Republicans who let the crazies seep into full control on their side off the hook.  Why would I for the other side?

 

So the left has a problem in that they aren't nipping all the arrogant people in the bud? That's not a very reasonable expectation, that's just looking for an excuse to blame the party. And seriously, what exactly is the bat-**** crazy things these people have gotten the party leaders to do?

 

And this depiction of the smug, snobby, typical-lefty is an entirely offensive and BS stereotype. It's a freakin' caricature of the tweed-wearing, pipe-smoking, know-it-all college professor. The Republican party has painted this minority stereotype across all liberals and told everybody, "You can be this guy who thinks he's better than you because he went to school, or you can be us!" and their supporters have eaten it up and have now associated getting an education with being this exaggerated, arrogant cartoon.

[TheLeviathan]

 

So the left has a problem in that they aren't nipping all the arrogant people in the bud? That's not a very reasonable expectation, that's just looking for an excuse to blame the party.

 

And this depiction of the smug, snobby, typical-lefty is an entirely offensive and BS stereotype. It's a freakin' caricature of the tweed-wearing, pipe-smoking, know-it-all college professor. The Republican party has painted this minority stereotype across all liberals and told everybody, "You can be this guy who thinks he's better than you because he went to school, or you can be us!" and their supporters have eaten it up and have now associated getting an education with being this exaggerated, arrogant cartoon.

 

Yes, it's a problem that the left isn't standing up to the loud, obnoxious voices.  Just as it was when the right let the Tea Party have too much rope.  Look where that got them.  (And the rest of us)  It's a problem right now that the Republicans are too spineless to stand up to Trump too.  We've talked at length about that though.

 

This isn't a Republican creation.  No Republicans are shouting down a scientist for saying "Um, hey, maybe we should just focus on science?"  No Republicans are running around shaming opinions based on privilege or cis gender or whatever.  It's not Republicans lining up on social media to blitzkrieg anyone that falls out of line.  Your line of argument is an excuse to make all the ills of the left the responsibility of the right.  That's nonsense.  I doubt you'd argue Democrats were forcing Tea Party people to look like racist, backwards morons, the Tea Party did that on their own.  The Republicans just indulged them. The same is happening here.

 

This is a manifestation within the left.  And it's toxic.  Especially to the kind of no nonsense, blue collar workers that used to backbone the party's voting base. 

 

And to anyone that enjoys a spirited discussion of various ideas.  Or has their own opinion.

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

Just curious, do you have any proof they don't hold town hall meetings, visit parades, etc? Because having worked on the Hill, that's a big part of what they do.....

I don't recall saying Democrats don't hold town halls or attend parades.

[Mike Sixel]

 

I don't recall saying Democrats don't hold town halls or attend parades.

 

what did you mean by saying they don't talk to their constituents? 

[nicksaviking]

 

 

This isn't a Republican creation.  No Republicans are shouting down a scientist for saying "Um, hey, maybe we should just focus on science?"  No Republicans are running around shaming opinions based on privilege or cis gender or whatever.  It's not Republicans lining up on social media to blitzkrieg anyone that falls out of line.  Your line of argument is an excuse to make all the ills of the left the responsibility of the right.  That's nonsense.  I doubt you'd argue Democrats were forcing Tea Party people to look like racist, backwards morons, the Tea Party did that on their own.  The Republicans just indulged them. The same is happening here.

 

 

This is propaganda. You're seriously saying liberals are shamming people for being under-privileged? Defending the minority and under-privileged is a cornerstone of the whole movement.

 

The Republicans aren't lining up on social media to corral people into supporting their minority opinion because the fringe groups are already running the party and doing what they want. They don't need to round up civilian supporters for their lunacy, they have to round up the remaining ethical politicians into going along with insane ideas, and that goes on behind the scene. Case in point, the Republican Senate just made DeVos the Secretary of Education. There aren't lunatic fringe liberals with any power in the Democratic party that would have convinced the rest of the party to go along with something equally as asinine.

 

Oh, and your kidding about no Republicans denouncing scientists right?

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

So the left has a problem in that they aren't nipping all the arrogant people in the bud? That's not a very reasonable expectation, that's just looking for an excuse to blame the party. And seriously, what exactly is the bat-**** crazy things these people have gotten the party leaders to do?

 

And this depiction of the smug, snobby, typical-lefty is an entirely offensive and BS stereotype. It's a freakin' caricature of the tweed-wearing, pipe-smoking, know-it-all college professor. The Republican party has painted this minority stereotype across all liberals and told everybody, "You can be this guy who thinks he's better than you because he went to school, or you can be us!" and their supporters have eaten it up and have now associated getting an education with being this exaggerated, arrogant cartoon.

of course it's a caricature but all it takes is one slip ("deplorables") and Democrats are back to square one. Democrats and Republicans are held to different standards. I don't know how we got here, but here we are. If Democrats commit themselves to working their butts off and offering solutions they will win voters back. If now is not an opportunity to do this, there never will be one.

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

How did we get to a point in national politics where the only good measure of a Republican candidate is how much they piss off liberals? Does anyone disagree that that's where we are at?

 

Anyway, not trying to make this personal, so I will back off for a bit. I'd like to see the discussion continue though.

[TheLeviathan]

 

This is propaganda. You're seriously saying liberals are shamming people for being under-privileged? Defending the minority and under-privileged is a cornerstone of the whole movement.

 

The Republicans aren't lining up on social media to corral people into supporting their minority opinion because the fringe groups are already running the party and doing what they want. They don't need to round up civilian supporters for their lunacy, they have to round up the remaining ethical politicians into going along with insane ideas, and that goes on behind the scene. Case in point, the Republican Senate just made DeVos the Secretary of Education. There aren't lunatic fringe liberals with any power in the Democratic party that would have convinced the rest of the party to go along with something equally as asinine.

 

Oh, and your kidding about no Republicans denouncing scientists right?

 

You didn't even try to read that post nick.  Or you way missed the boat when you did.

 

They are attacking any point of view that disagrees as being too privileged.  They are literally shouting down a scientist for saying "Um, maybe we should just focus on science at the Science March".  Go read the comments in that twitter link I posted.  Seriously.  Go read it.  And if you think this is isolated, ask Steve Martin about Carrie Fisher.  Ask the prof and his wife with the Halloween costume thing up thread.  The examples are endless.

 

I don't think you understand what i'm saying and you're arguing a strawman (unintentionally) as a result.  Go read that twitter feed and the comments for awhile.  That's the toxin, ala the Tea Party, that the Dems are allowing to fester.

[nicksaviking]

 

You didn't even try to read that post nick.  Or you way missed the boat when you did.

 

They are attacking any point of view that disagrees as being too privileged.  They are literally shouting down a scientist for saying "Um, maybe we should just focus on science at the Science March".  Go read the comments in that twitter link I posted.  Seriously.  Go read it.  And if you think this is isolated, ask Steve Martin about Carrie Fisher.  Ask the prof and his wife with the Halloween costume thing up thread.  The examples are endless.

 

I don't think you understand what i'm saying and you're arguing a strawman (unintentionally) as a result.  Go read that twitter feed and the comments for awhile.  That's the toxin, ala the Tea Party, that the Dems are allowing to fester.

 

These people aren't running the party, IGNORE them, they have no pull and make no policy. The Tea Party does. Nobody, on the right or left can stop the crazies, but you can keep them from having any power. Only one party has done that. 

[TheLeviathan]

 

These people aren't running the party, IGNORE them, they have no pull and make no policy. The Tea Party does. Nobody, on the right or left can stop the crazies, but you can keep them from having any power. Only one party has done that. 

 

I heard moderate and establishment Republicans say the same about the Tea Party when they were rising.  Ignore them.  They're a fringe.  They don't hold sway.

 

But they do.  And eventually they find way to undermine your cause.  For the right they undermined it by taking over enough house seats to influence policy.  For the left, these crazies are setting a tone of political correctness, anti-speech, stifled discussion and that is having an effect.  It is fracturing the party, encouraging the kind of self-cannibalization that destroys the ability for the left to generate momentum and consensus.  And, in addition to hurting the party from the inside, the sheer stupidity of what they say drives moderates and independents away.

 

Letting it fester may not be the same exact model as the Tea Party, but the effects might well be the same.  It's destroying our ability to compromise and govern.  And I think it's a major reason why much of the country agrees with the left (on policy) but wouldn't be caught dead supporting them.  

[Mike Sixel]

Meh, I think it's time for the parties to splinter. If the dems do it first, and have to rely on coalition governments, so be it. 

[PseudoSABR]

Jesus, using comments on twitter to characterize a political movement or party is lame.   Forget the tea party, let's use comments on stormfront.com to characterize the right.  The false equivalency being made in this argument is really really astounding and tone-deaf. 

 

Liberals do have problem in that they become uber-motivated by their own pet cause at the exclusion of other causes to which they also believe.   But I think that's very different problem then the snobby/elitist caricature.

 

For my part, I hope the liberals own their education, their critical thinking credentials, as well as their working class roots.   They need to push back forcefully on being defined by their opponents, and have failed to do this for decades, choosing to duck and dodge labels (of liberalism, of elitism etc.) by scurrying to the center.

 

Righteousness exists on both sides (and even in the middle); if you want to fight elitism and pretentiousness, perhaps each of us should pull-back on how 'certain' we are of our positions.  

[TheLeviathan]

 

Meh, I think it's time for the parties to splinter. If the dems do it first, and have to rely on coalition governments, so be it. 

 

See I worry about that only furthering the control of the right.

[Mike Sixel]

 

See I worry about that only furthering the control of the right.

 

I share that concern, no doubt. But I'm more chaotic good than Lawful....the problem is the right is made up of Lawful (organized, WANTING to be organized) people, and breaking that coalition is hard. I think people greatly under estimate the delta on that made up role playing game scale.....and it's actual real world impact on politics in a democracy. 

[TheLeviathan]

 

Jesus, using comments on twitter to characterize a political movement or party is lame.   Forget the tea party, let's use comments on stormfront.com to characterize the right.  The false equivalency being made in this argument is really really astounding and tone-deaf. 

 

And yet, the left did try to hold online comments on the right during the scope of the election.  And rightly so.  Turnabout should be fair play.  

 

Words matter.  Tactics of debate matter.  And they matter on both sides.  Especially in a discussion of "how do you build/maintain a coalition".  This isn't a false equivalency, both have a real effect on the coalition.

[PseudoSABR]

 

And yet, the left did try to hold online comments on the right during the scope of the election.  And rightly so.  Turnabout should be fair play.  

 

Words matter.  Tactics of debate matter.  And they matter on both sides.  Especially in a discussion of "how do you build/maintain a coalition".  This isn't a false equivalency, both have a real effect on the coalition.

Words do matter.  Tactics do matter.  But I still don't know what you would have 'us' do?  I can only tell-off my righteous vegan aunt that she isn't helping so many times.   Like wise, I can only recommend that you take a less haughty tone so many freaking times. 

 

Trump is the greatest gift to those seeking to build a coalition--unfortunately, coalition is probably better effectuated through opposition than bound by common-belief.  I think the Republicans have demonstrated such in spades...

[nicksaviking]

 

I heard moderate and establishment Republicans say the same about the Tea Party when they were rising.  Ignore them.  They're a fringe.  They don't hold sway.

 

But they do.  And eventually they find way to undermine your cause.  For the right they undermined it by taking over enough house seats to influence policy.  For the left, these crazies are setting a tone of political correctness, anti-speech, stifled discussion and that is having an effect.  It is fracturing the party, encouraging the kind of self-cannibalization that destroys the ability for the left to generate momentum and consensus.  And, in addition to hurting the party from the inside, the sheer stupidity of what they say drives moderates and independents away.

 

Letting it fester may not be the same exact model as the Tea Party, but the effects might well be the same.  It's destroying our ability to compromise and govern.  And I think it's a major reason why much of the country agrees with the left (on policy) but wouldn't be caught dead supporting them.  

 

The Twitter commenters you don't like don't stand for anything. There isn't anything for them to build political momentum around. The Democratic party should taken to task for these people because someday they MIGHT grow to power around some kind of pro-internet trolling platform? There's no logic here, the party leaders are not involved in this non-sense. Anger and frustration are irrational responses these aren't things someone is going to be able to stop.

 

People who agree with left policy but don't want to be caught dead supporting them are the people who have bought into the BS propaganda about the snobby liberal elite. The other party has trademarked that stereotype for the other side and people are buying it. It has little to do with what ever anger internet trolls are spewing and having that take over the party. I think it has a LOT to do with being afraid that the guys down at the Elks Club finding out that they agree with the snooty commie liberals. 

 

 

[TheLeviathan]

 

Words do matter.  Tactics do matter.  But I still don't know what you would have 'us' do?  I can only tell-off my righteous vegan aunt that she isn't helping so many times.   Like wise, I can only recommend that you take a less haughty tone so many freaking times. 

 

Trump is the greatest gift to those seeking to build a coalition--unfortunately, coalition is probably better effectuated through opposition than bound by common-belief.  I think the Republicans have demonstrated such in spades...

 

Maybe you're doing your part, but I'm not sure the party and prominent liberals are doing it enough.  It's certainly not evident that there is an internal push back through social media.

 

I see the March for Science and what is happening there and think....even with someone like Trump in office the left is still finding ways to screw up forming a coalition.  Or about how to concentrate on single, important issues rather than splintering into 50 "pet issues" as you put it.

 

That, right there, is a huge part of the problem.

[TheLeviathan]

 

The Twitter commenters you don't like don't stand for anything. There isn't anything for them to build political momentum around. 

 

People who agree with left policy but don't want to be caught dead supporting them are the people who have bought into the BS propaganda about the snobby liberal elite. The other party has trademarked that stereotype for the other side and people are buying it. It has little to do with what ever anger internet trolls are spewing and having that take over the party. I think it has a LOT to do with being afraid that the guys down at the Elks Club finding out that they agree with the snooty commie liberals. 

 

They absolutely stand for something.  The language and attacks used are universal enough that there is absolutely something to it.  These aren't lone wolves or boogie men created by the right.  These are real people doing this every day, with common language, commonly held beliefs, and typically using the same tool - social media.  And they have been doing it for a rather significant amount of time.

 

You keep trying to portray this as some kind of vast right wing conspiracy and it just isn't. This is a real thing.  Anyone who spends any amount of time online will find it.  Peruse left-wing causes and it will come up.  Read anything about colleges and you'll see academics (liberals!) fighting tooth and nail for authenticity and intellectual freedom on their campuses.

 

So when Republicans do want to paint with a wide brush.....these very vocal, aggressive factions only make it easier.  And that does hurt your coalition.

[jimmer]

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/us-officials-corroborate-aspects-of-dossier/vi-AAmONHQ