You can make marginal improvements, see Ben Revere cca 2012, but basically you get what you got in terms of arm strength.

 

An ignorant question from a non-athlete (and a Maryland resident who sees MLB highlight clips but not whole games): if arm strength is Polanco's (main?) liability at SS, is there any possibility of him building it up?

An ignorant answer from another non-athlete. Players do tend to get stronger and add muscle as they age, but I think the arm strength is largely due to flexibility of the joint. Using pitchers as an easily visible example, guys tend to lose velocity in their mid-20's. Since throwing over-hand is a largely unnatural thing for the human body to do I don't know that arm strength typically increases due to muscle growth, but instead decreases as wear on the joint accumulates and flexibility lessens.

 

 

An ignorant answer from another non-athlete: arm strength has been the knock on Polanco for as long as I remember, including comments from Twins personnel, so I would presume he's worked with whatever experts there are, already.

 

The lack of zip on his throws when he guides it to first, or the scattershot results if he really tries to bring it, is not a sudden revelation.

 

Interesting, it almost seems like I'm plagiarizing your material, word for word.

An ignorant answer from another non-athlete.

http://i3.ytimg.com/vi/D9hvmI-kk08/mqdefault.jpg

I question what kind of return we can get for Dozier.  What teams can really afford to give up good pitching for a 2nd baseman?  Granted Dozier's power has to be appealing to other teams it just seems like it will be hard to find a match.

 

I question what kind of return we can get for Dozier.  What teams can really afford to give up good pitching for a 2nd baseman?  Granted Dozier's power has to be appealing to other teams it just seems like it will be hard to find a match.

 

This is the problem. It is very easy for us to sit at our computers and say "trade this guy" or "trade that guy," but none of us really knows what is on offer for any of the Twins' assets. I'm sure that the Twins' front office (old or new) is listening and talking and bargaining and dealing. But sometimes you just never get a deal that makes sense and you end up keeping the asset instead of selling at a cut-rate price (e.g., Suzuki in July, Plouffe both in winter and in July, and probably a lot more guys that we didn't know they were considering trading).

 

Without sitting in the GM's chair and knowing what the true, available options are, it's pretty harsh to criticize him for not making a deal. Of course, if we didn't do that it would make this site a lot less interesting, especially during the close season!

If a decent SS, SP, or C is out there for Dozier, trade him and move Polanco to 2B. If that trade isn't there, then non-tender Escobar and give Polanco the backup inf. job.

That said, whatever the offers are this year (and you could argue at least 2-3 teams would see Dozier as a HUGE upgrade over what their currently have at 2nd base) that whatever those offers are, they are not going to be higher a year from now, or even at the deadline. Maybe I'm wrong, but Dozier having a career year this year certainly made it so the offers will never be higher. If the new GM and Falvey don't think they are getting requisite value now for Dozier, they will like the offers that come in a year even less.

 

This team needs to improve pitching and fielding. Keeping both Polonco and Dozier does neither.

Gotta trade one of them and get the biggest impact possible for a high end young starting pitcher. I think Dozier has more value and would bring a better return. I would imagine Escobar would be as good or better than Polanco at SS, need to find a better solution, but Esco isn't a bad utility option.

 

And I think the long-term plan at SS has to include Vielma and Gordon. Gordon is still a 2018 kind of guy but Vielma's glove is ready to play at a big league level; if he can hit .240 it might be the best option. The Twins have more options than Escobar or Polanco.

 

I agree with Shane- starting SS. He actually is NOT horrible, and would be a great bridge to 2018. His bat will make up for a lot of defensive questions.

Isn't this the kind of thinking that helped lead them to their run prevention mess this year?

 

 

Let the kid play a full season or two at SS and then we can talk about his defense.

I've seen enough, honestly. He doesn't have the arm to be an asset at the position. He can play it serviceably, but they need more than that. Pointing to Baseball America's accolades from 2 or 5-6 years ago doesn't really support a strong case. Instead of pointing to those maybe you could look at what BA said about him in their most recent profile, from last year:

 

"He has averaged 34 errors the past two seasons since moving to shortstop, showing fairly soft hands but an average arm that strains at times to match the added burden of the position. His range is only average and his play clock gets sped up, leading to unforced errors. Quiet and intelligent with a grinder's mentality, his makeup is strong. With all-star second baseman Brian Dozier locked up through 2018, Polanco is blocked at his best projected position"

Trade Dozier, play him at 2B.

 

/thread

 

I keep Dozier and play Polanco at SS, or trade him.

I would trade BD. I think the defense is close to a wash, with Polanco eventually being better than Dozier. And while Dozier had a four month stretch like few before him, I think Polanco is easily a much better pure hitter, and will continue to be so. Will he hit 40 HR's? Nope, and I really don't think Dozier will ever do that again. Or for that matter 30. They have added done and in to off the plate in how he is being pitched, and it's been very effective. He will still hit his 20 HR's, which is nothing to sneeze at. But I would sell as high as I can on him, while I can.

And I think the long-term plan at SS has to include Vielma and Gordon. Gordon is still a 2018 kind of guy but Vielma's glove is ready to play at a big league level; if he can hit .240 it might be the best option. The Twins have more options than Escobar or Polanco.

yeah, there also free agency or trade for a really good fielding, mediocre hitting shortstop. They're out there. Might already be in house.

Looking at the alternatives, I feel like the Grinch looking at the Whoville phone book - hate, hate, hate, loathe entirely.

 

Twins need to stop playing people out of position - period.  Dozier to third?  Mauer to left?  Mauer to third?  I'd put "keep Polanco at SS" as the exact same thing, much less Polanco to 3B.  Based on his age relative to the maturation of the bulk of the future of this team, only one of those OP plans seems wise to me.

 

We haven't sold high on a player in a long time - I understand the concerns about butts in the seats (and the counter-argument about winning being more important).  Polanco at 2b, Dozier for a good pitcher, obtain the world's best catcher - is the only one of those options that doesn't scream "same old" pray-for-mediocrity to me.

I'm surprised how many people are fine with him playing ss considering how frustrated we have been with our overall defense. The Twins have to start playing guys at their best positions which is 2nd for Jorge.

 

yeah, there also free agency or trade for a really good fielding, mediocre hitting shortstop. They're out there. Might already be in house.

Let me tell you, I have been researching the free agent market for the Offseason Handbook and the shortstop crop is beyond brutal. Erick Aybar is probably going to be the top name. For real. I'll take Ed Escobar.

 

Why isn't there more interest in moving Dozier to third?

 

Have you seen Brian throw?

 

I think he would be pretty bad defensively at 3B.

 

I agree with Shane- starting SS. He actually is NOT horrible, and would be a great bridge to 2018. His bat will make up for a lot of defensive questions.

I agree totally.  His play, metrics and feel for the position should all improve with additional time to get acclimated to playing there.  Some will criticize the organization for not playing him there in his last year in the minors but try to remember that although Dozier hit .242 in the month preceding Polanco's most recent call up and .369 in June, he hadn't topped .216 in any of the 5 preceding months.  Dozier had given them good reason to get their top high minors infield prospect ready to replace him.  The REAL question here is, if Dozier is not moved, which Dozier do we see in 2017?

 

Why isn't there more interest in moving Dozier to third?

 

 

Dozier barely has the arm strength to make the throws from 2B. The left side is not an option for him.

 

Dozier barely has the arm strength to make the throws from 2B. The left side is not an option for him.

 

Dozier has more than enough arm strength.  He has to be within the top 3 guys on the team as far as upper body strength is concerned.  If there's an issue with moving him -- and I don't know if there is one -- it would be with his throwing accuracy and speed.  

 

At worst he would be another Sano over there, and I doubt he would be that bad.

The Twins will NOT trade Dozier.  He is the only marketing chip that they have, other than the food at Target Field.  2016 did not work out for the Marketing Dept.  Sano was a bust, Berrios was a bust, Buxton was a bust, Mauer was a bust.  So all they have is Santana every 5th game.

 

Halvey needs to shore up the Twins at C and get one quality starting pitcher and one quality reliever.  He has no trading chips and will not mortgage his future for 2017.  Polanco and Sano need to go to Spring Training with goals to play solid SS and 3B.  Barring injuries, the infield and outfield will be set for 2017.

 

As for hoping that Gordon or any other prospect will bail out the defense in 2018, remember how Buxton, Sano, Berrios, Vargas, DSantana, etc have worked out.  Still hoping, aren't we?

Individual players don't sell tickets, not Brian Dozier. How many less people buy tickets if they trade him? 50? 100? 1000 (no way)?

Individual players don't sell tickets, not Brian Dozier. How many less people buy tickets if they trade him? 50? 100? 1000 (no way)?

Agreed. At this point they will really win fans over by winning.

My Choice would be starting utility. 

 

He plays whatever position we need that day. 

 

Give him the chance to perform... Have an option ready in case he doesn't perform. 

Feel free to put me in my place and tell me I am wrong and this won't work, etc, etc. But if one of the scenarios here is to put Polanco and his sub par arm at 3rd base, why can't they move Dozier to 3rd base and have Polanco play 2nd.  That move obviously takes Sano out of the 3rd base position, but it also gives an opportunity to move him to 1st base.  In turn it creates flexibility with Mauer who can split DH/Backup 1st base duties with Vargas or Park. 

 

I think Polanco is longer term piece to this team's future than Dozier so getting him in his natural position is important if the plan is to keep Dozier.

 

Feel free to put me in my place and tell me I am wrong and this won't work, etc, etc. But if one of the scenarios here is to put Polanco and his sub par arm at 3rd base, why can't they move Dozier to 3rd base and have Polanco play 2nd.  That move obviously takes Sano out of the 3rd base position, but it also gives an opportunity to move him to 1st base.  In turn it creates flexibility with Mauer who can split DH/Backup 1st base duties with Vargas or Park. 

 

I think Polanco is longer term piece to this team's future than Dozier so getting him in his natural position is important if the plan is to keep Dozier.

As I continue to read the thread I see my questions have already been answered.

 

Dozier has more than enough arm strength.  He has to be within the top 3 guys on the team as far as upper body strength is concerned.  If there's an issue with moving him -- and I don't know if there is one -- it would be with his throwing accuracy and speed.  

 

At worst he would be another Sano over there, and I doubt he would be that bad.

Are we watching the same guy? I remember quite a few potential double plays has Dozier lobbed the ball over to first when a strong throw would've been an out. I'm not saying he's a bad overall defender at 2B, just that his arm isn't strong enough to play on the left side.

 

Can you imagine a play where Dozier has to field a ball going to his right and has to throw from foul territory? The throw might get to the first basemen, but I can all but guarantee you it's not going to be on a line.

Why can't he be a guy like Ben Zobrist, play nearly every day, and play many positions? Now, my first choice is trade Dozier, and put Polanco at 2B (or trade Polanco if he returns a legit SP type)....but I'd be ok with Zobrist type usage.

I don't WANT Polanco at SS, though I sure wish he could be the answer there. And to be honest, SSS and work may show he's better there than expected. BUT, I like him better at 2B for sure, and not sure I want him as the utility guy.

 

But if Dozier was NOT traded, I could see Polanco and Escobar fight for SS and the "loser" would be the utility guy and probably still play a lot between 3 positions. Not a bad problem to have. All assuming, of course, the Twins kept BD.