Article: Is Throwing Over 200 Pitches In One Day Gutsy Or Crazy?

[Parker Hageman]

This past Friday, in the thick of the Minnesota State Amateur Baseball Tournament, the Moorhead Brewers’ pitcher Tanner Dahl threw not one but two complete games. When all was said and done Dahl, a recent University of Jamestown (North Dakota) graduate, walked away with two Moorhead victories, allowing just one run while running up his pitch count to a whopping 222 pitches.

 

While the monumental performance was celebrated by Minnesota baseball enthusiasts as gritty and gutty, outside of the bubble, people were head scratching the decision to let a pitcher toss that many pitches.

 

“It was simultaneously impressive as it was embarrassing,” Driveline Baseball’s Kyle Boddy told me about his reaction to reading Dahl’s stat line. Boddy, who works with pitchers from all levels of the game and uses a data-driven, science-based approach at studying the arm, understands the mindset of pitchers who often throw all rational thought out the window when the adrenaline is pumping.Baseball observers work themselves in to a lather over two triple-digit figures when it comes to pitching -- velocity and pitch counts. Whenever a pitcher encroaches upon either, it becomes a topic of conversation. Dahl’s totals are unfathomable at any level in this day and age.

 

The news of Dahl’s feat spread among Baseball Twitter and soon the influencers were levying their thoughts on the crazy total of pitches.

 

“I’m curious,” ESPN.com’s Keith Law tweeted. “Will the Brewers pay for his rehab or surgery if he hurt himself today?”

 

The answer, obviously, is no, the Brewers will not. Not in a direct, insurance-policy-gots-you-covered-Chief sort of way. However, knowing the camaraderie and community that goes into a Minnesota town ball team, they would assuredly organize a Kickstarter or (more likely) a beer bust to help offset medical expenses incurred because of his dedication to his team.

 

Clearly, that was Law’s point. When someone signs the mandated player contract to participate in the Minnesota Baseball Association, the language says nothing about bankrolling any major surgeries and rehab that may come from participating in the game. The 23-year-old pitcher -- who was recently a part of the Fargo-Moorhead Redhawks independent league team -- was risking his future baseball livelihood and would be left paying for the repairs if his arm blew out.

 

“Pitcher abuse” is a hot button topic. If it wasn’t, Jeff Passan’s amazing book, The Arm, would not be a New York Times bestseller.

 

Each year during the NCAA tournament we see reports of a school having a pitcher throw 150 or more pitches only to throw again in another day or two. This season alone, a Minnesota State-Mankato pitcher caught everyone’s attention by tossing 171 pitches in an 11-inning game.

 

On May 19, the Mavericks’ Dalton Roach threw 171 pitches in a victory over St Cloud State in NCAA D-II Regional play. Meanwhile SCSU’s starter, Reese Gregory, threw an efficient 121 pitches, just for comparison. Roach told the media after the game that he felt fine and it was OK because he threw mostly fastballs (“The single most dangerous pitch out there right now is a hard fastball. That’s typically the pitch a player gets hurt on,” Dr Pearce McCarty III, one of the Minnesota Twins’ orthopedic surgeons, told the Star Tribune recently). People called for his coach’s head.

 

To prove how fine his arm was after the outing that incited all the pearl-clutching, a little over a week later Roach was pitching in the Northwoods League where, in his first start on May 31, he threw 101 pitches and struck out an Eau Claire Express-record 18 (he started the game by striking out the first 12 batters he faced). Roach, who is heading into his third year of college ball, would make one more start for the Express before being shut down because of an imposed innings limit.

 

Maybe Roach is one of the genetically lucky ones -- the proverbial rubber arm. The guy whose mechanics and muscle structure refuse to break. (Or maybe the wear-and-tear just hasn’t caught up to him yet.) Still, the idea of risking his arm for a Division II championship feels short-sighted. As Boddy put it, almost all pitchers have the mentality of *wanting* to keep throwing but someone (I don’t know, a paid coach perhaps) has to be the adult in that situation.

 

That burden of deciding when to lift the pitcher will likely be removed from the coach’s responsibility this coming season, at least at the high school level.

 

In the Minnesota high school ranks, the state organization is currently weighing the idea of setting a pitch restriction for the young, developing arms. As it stands now, the rules are written in a way that says a pitcher cannot throw more than 14 innings in three days. That is a large enough loophole for a bullpen car to drive through. As written, it means a high school pitcher could essentially pull a Tanner Dahl, throwing back-to-back complete 7-inning games while amassing 200+ pitches. There’s nothing to stop a coach from doing that beside some attentive and vocal parents or their own conscience.

 

It should be noted that the state’s coaches association already has suggested guidelines designed by the Mayo Clinic for pitch counts for their high school players posted on their website, such as a max of 90 pitches for a 17-to-18-year-old on four days of rest, but that’s like a beer company suggesting a fraternity “drink responsibly” during a toga party. That is why the Minnesota State High School League is taking measures to correct that. In October, the state coaches association will discuss the proposed pitch limits which caps the amount at 105 for the upperclassmen (Alabama has a 120 pitch limit) and 85 for the younger grades with required rest days in between outings.

 

How would that process work? The high school association in Illinois recently outlined a similar proposal, limiting their pitchers to a 115-pitch count. It would require teams to keep track of both theirs and the opposing team’s pitch count, and compare pitch count totals during even-numbered innings. The oversight is needed.

 

These are all good steps for the developing pitcher with a future ahead of him.

 

While it makes sense to monitor a college pitcher whose financial aid or potential professional career may be tied to being able to pitch (and not recovering from arm surgery) or keeping the teenage hurler injury-free so that he may have better looks from colleges and the professional ranks, amateur players like Dahl and others operate in a Lord of the Flies-like town ball baseball society.

 

From personal experience, I played on a team with a pitcher who had a decent college career and played for several years in independent ball prior to joining the team. Despite the fact that he was retired from his professional ranks, he was no less tenacious in his approach. He was six-foot-plus, the size of a fullback and had legs like sequoias. On his day to pitch, he had such intense, laser focus that I was positive that somewhere in the universe another planet exploded from its force. It was going to take a tranq gun to pry the ball out of his hand. He could, and routinely did, throw over 120 pitches a game.

 

There’s no question in my mind that someone was constantly asking Dahl if he felt all right each time he came back in the dugout beyond the seventh inning of the first game and each inning into the second game. One of the team’s administrators tweeted back at Law and said that their number two starter was ready to go the moment Dahl said he was done. Hell, even former major league catcher Chris Coste plays on Dahl’s team (he smacked a dinger in the tournament). There were plenty of grown adults well aware of the situation.

 

 

At 23 years old, you probably still want to play some baseball in the summer for a few more years, or eventually play catch with your kid, or not pay for major surgery. For outsiders, risking all that for a Class “B” town ball title feels like a silly gamble. That being said, if he does blow out his arm because of the 222-pitch day, Dahl will always be able to retell the story about the day he threw back-to-back complete games and helped lift his team into the 2016 championship game.

 

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[notoriousgod71]

So now a fastball is the most dangerous pitch to throw? Five years ago it was a slider, before that it was a forkball. In my day it was a curve ball.

 

Why don't these guys just admit they don't know any more than anyone else?

[Darius]

The hysteria over this is nuts. Law's comment is ridiculous.

 

What does he lose if he gets hurt? A free beer after the game from the sponsor next year? There is no college scholarship/pro contract on the line here. If he blows his elbow, he's not going to be some handicap or CTE victim (plenty of amateur/youth football leagues out there). People live with injuries that aren't surgically repaired all the time (labrum, knee ligaments, etc). I know someone who freakishly tore up their knee while shopping for groceries. Should we turn it into a crusade against the dangers of buying bananas? A few weeks ago a teammate tore an ACL in a slow pitch softball game. Should we look into whether or not we want to allow slow pitch softball as a societal issue?

 

He is an adult. The guy is an amateur ball player, probably had a great time, and made some amazing memories. I'm guessing he wasn't going out there against his will....in fact, it was probably his idea.

 

This asinine reactionary social media society we live today has gotten out of control. This exact thing has probably happened hundreds of times over the years in amateur baseball in Minnesota, or any other state, without being documented. But, now everyone has to chime with their, "look at me! I'm the most righteous! I am even more outraged!" covertly narcissistic comment over Twitter. Let's face it. Nobody commenting gives a damn about John Doe amateur from the tundra's elbow health. They just want as many people as possible to think that they do.

 

Can anyone just enjoy something cool for once without it turning into some controversial issue?

[DJSim22]

I haven't heard of 222 pitches before, but throwing multiple games and ton's of pitches in town ball is not out of the ordinary.  I'm a board member on our town ball team, when the playoffs near, you see some crazy stuff.

 

When my son was 14 in two years ago, we played a game against Lake City.  Lake City had a 14yr old left hander who threw fairly hard, and threw 157pitches in that game.  That bothered me a lot, he wasn't an adult, his body wasn't fully developed like a 20+ town ball player. 

[scottz]

Yeah, 222 pitches is a big number, but what's the problem? The guy is an adult (23 years old), they asked him if he felt OK, he said he did, so he kept pitching. Judging by the picture, he's pretty content with his accomplishment. There's plenty of town ball teams that could tell similar stories.

Did you also know that on golf courses all around the country, golfers continue to try to squeeze one more hole in before the storm comes? Keith Law and others should be made aware.

[old nurse]

If one believes O'leary, if the arm is up before the hips rotate and the front foot lands, all is good.

[Heezy1323]

 

So now a fastball is the most dangerous pitch to throw? Five years ago it was a slider, before that it was a forkball. In my day it was a curve ball.

 

Why don't these guys just admit they don't know any more than anyone else?

Well, being one of 'these guys', I feel an obligation to respond to this post (despite the fact that I think it is essentially true). 

 

Answering the question of which pitch places the most stress on the elbow has proven difficult from a scientific standpoint. The curve ball was never science based- it was based on assumption and expert opinion. Then, as technology began to improve, we began to be able to measure (with debatable accuracy) forces across the elbow. That's where some of the more recent thoughts come from (i.e. different studies have shown different numbers). There continues to be some disagreement in the medical community as to the specific cause of UCL injury. Clearly, it is multifactorial, but how much any one individual factor is responsible is difficult to say, scientifically. 

 

As to the physician's comment in the article re: a fastball being the most likely pitch to cause an injury, I think it is certainly possible, but very difficult to PROVE scientifically. Yes, I would say most pitchers that I have seen that report an acute 'pop' in the elbow with throwing were throwing a fastball. But what exactly does that mean? Was the UCL 100% normal before that pitch, and then tore completely? Seems unlikely. Also, at most levels, for most pitchers, the fastball is the most frequently thrown pitch (usually by a lot). So it certainly is a case (at least to me) of correlation not necessarily being causation. 

 

So ultimately, yes I would agree- there is much to be learned about the thrower's elbow. But I think it is somewhat unfair to characterize the professional community as being uninterested or incapable (though I can certainly understand the inclination). 

 

Finally- The Arm is a phenomenal book. I encourage anyone with an interest in the topic to read it.

[Mike Sixel]

It's stupid. These are the kinds of numbers that lead to long term health issues in 10-30 years. Is that really worth it? 30+ years of pain and an inability to lift your arm over your head?

[Parker Hageman]

Just to clarify my stance on this issue:

 

1. It's town ball. I'm not advocating there should be any regulations to deal with pitch counts/limits. Everyone is an adult and is aware of the potential dangers. In regards to Dahl specifically, good for him. That's a hell of a performance that he will retell over and over again, regardless how the rest of his career goes. 

 

2. I think there definitely should be pitch limits for youth/HS although I'm not certain I agree with the proposed 105 limit at HS level. Every pitcher is different. Some work and condition extremely hard and can easily hit those numbers. Others are bean poles and put a lot of undue pressure on the arm. Feels like there should be more case-by-case basis on how far a kid can go but I suppose the league would rather take that responsibility out of the coach's hands.

 

3. I think colleges need to be more diligent about their pitch counts but not as much as HS obviously. Especially around tournament time when there is a need to lean on arms. With the condensed schedule at that time and the finite amount of arms, I don't know what the recommendation should be. Guys like Roach who have college years ahead of him plus a possibility of playing pro ball shouldn't be leaned on for 170 pitches. 

[Parker Hageman]

 

If one believes O'leary, if the arm is up before the hips rotate and the front foot lands, all is good.

 

I can't see if Dahl does the "Tommy John Twist" in that picture. LOL.

[Parker Hageman]

 

So now a fastball is the most dangerous pitch to throw? Five years ago it was a slider, before that it was a forkball. In my day it was a curve ball.

 

Why don't these guys just admit they don't know any more than anyone else?

 

On Sunday's radio pregame show, Jack Morris was talking about Pat Light and his use of the splitter-forkball and the disappearance of the pitch in general because of injury concerns. In 2011, the New York Times documented some of that, citing teams like the Twins discouraging pitchers from throwing it. While the pitch MAY be potentially harmful, I still haven't seen any scientific evidence that it is somehow more or less dangerous than all the other pitches. 

[Mike Sixel]

Right, there isn't any real evidence the splitter is worse for your arm than any other pitch.

 

If I was a AAAA pitcher, I'd add the splitter for sure. At that point, you are all in already.

[Steve Lein]

This is outside the intent of the article I think, but Keith Law's question brought it up:

 

Are you sure the team doesn't have insurance? I thought it was required, or at least the league is required to have it?

 

While it wasn't great coverage (combined with my work's it was fine), but when I tore my ACL playing I had insurance from the team to help pay.

[Parker Hageman]

 

This is outside the intent of the article I think, but Keith Law's question brought it up:

Are you sure the team doesn't have insurance? I thought it was required, or at least the league is required to have it?

While it wasn't great coverage (combined with my work's it was fine), but when I tore my ACL playing I had insurance from the team to help pay.

 

To clarify: MBA requires all teams to have accident insurance to cover for things like "ambulatory services" for on-field injuries. 

 

From my understanding, if you tear something on the field, cannot move and require immediate medical attention, that is covered. If you throw out your shoulder or tear your UCL in your elbow and need Tommy John surgery, that is not covered. 

[Eris]

From my perspective, at all levels, most/all of the power is in the hands of the manager.  Obviously, for whatever reason, common sense has failed in many levels / organizations.  Therefore, at most levels there needs to be some serious discussion about misuse / over use of players.  I live in NJ, in high school there are no pitch limits.  There are many examples of high school kids throwing 120 pitches a game.  It is abuse and needs to stop.  I realize the pitch limits is a very controversial topic.  All we really know right now is that Tommy John surgeries are on the rise and have become a significant part of the game.  (My son's high school team had 2 players with Tommy John).

 

From the Bergen Record:  Rob Kaminsky, the former St. Joseph ace and the St. Louis Cardinals’ 2013 first-round pick, is a strong supporter of the new policy.

The left-hander, now pitching for Class AA Akron, a Cleveland Indians’ affiliate, called the change “a good step.”

“Seeing high school coaches let kids throw 100-plus pitches on short rest is borderline abuse,” Kaminsky said. “You don’t see that even happen in the minor leagues. It’s something that should be addressed, and quite frankly, should have been addressed years ago.  (source:  http://blogs.northjersey.com/varsity-aces/new-pitch-count-limits-applauded-by-some-ripped-by-others-even-before-njsiaa-devises-magic-number-1.1644885)

 

Even at the major league level there are managers who are less careful than others in managing pitchers.  Kerry Woods probably lost millions because of Dusty Baker's decision to have him pitch on a cold windy day in Chicago.  Earlier this year there was a lot of discussion on Met fan blogs concerning whether or not Terry Collins should be fired.  The argument for him being fired that he had misused his bullpen to the extent that a number of them were ineffective.

 

If we had pitch limits across many levels, but especially in high school, more people would be given the opportunity and therefore learn how to pitch.  This should be extended to every non-professional league.  In the short term, the quality of pitching would decrease, but in the long term there would be more pitchers.

 

One other issue that is related.  Why is the Amateur Baseball association scheduling double headers, especially during playoffs.  That also contributes to putting more pressure on coaches to over use players.

 

[scottz]

I'm in favor of pitch counts for all leagues where players can be under age 18, and for public institutions (i.e., high school, college), too. I just think that reaching into non-professional leagues filled with adults is reaching too far. If the guys playing in these amateur leagues feel like they have a future in professional ball somewhere, then they can determine for themselves how and when to throw to both showcase their abilities and protect their asset (arm). If they don't feel like they have a future in pro ball, or if they just are driven to compete until the cows come home (literally. it's milking time then.), then that's their choice. Yep, their bodies might break down and that will suck when it happens, but it doesn't need to be legislated.

 

One other issue that is related.  Why is the Amateur Baseball association scheduling double headers, especially during playoffs.  That also contributes to putting more pressure on coaches to over use players.

 

Regarding this issue, the State B Tourney (where Moorhead played) featured 22 games that took place over 3 weekends at 3 venues and involved 16 teams from all over the state (Duluth, Moorhead, Rochester, for example). They play doubleheaders because they have to in order to get the games in to determine a champion. And if they've played town ball all summer and are at the state tourney, these guys all want to be the champion.

 

[Mike Sixel]

I do agree that adults don't need legislation for town ball games.....but that will likely lead to a lot of really bad decisions. 

[Steve Lein]

 

To clarify: MBA requires all teams to have accident insurance to cover for things like "ambulatory services" for on-field injuries. 

 

From my understanding, if you tear something on the field, cannot move and require immediate medical attention, that is covered. If you throw out your shoulder or tear your UCL in your elbow and need Tommy John surgery, that is not covered. 

 

I did not require immediate medical attention. 

 

After laying in the fetal position after managing to toss the ball back toward the infield (I made the catch, haha), my teammate (personal trainer/chiropractor in his non-free time) came out and straightened my leg back out. Felt okay after that and walked off the field under my own power.

 

The insurance the team had covered portions of the initial doctor visits, MRI, surgery, and rehab.

 

I don't know if our league had better insurance than others beyond what the MBA requires, but this statement was not true in my experience.

[Parker Hageman]

 

I did not require immediate medical attention. 

 

After laying in the fetal position after managing to toss the ball back toward the infield (I made the catch, haha), my teammate (personal trainer/chiropractor in his non-free time) came out and straightened my leg back out. Felt okay after that and walked off the field under my own power.

 

The insurance the team had covered portions of the initial doctor visits, MRI, surgery, and rehab.

 

I don't know if our league had better insurance than others beyond what the MBA requires, but this statement was not true in my experience.

 

Right. You directly injured yourself on the field as a result of a play. That has some level of coverage.

 

Pitchers who blow out their arms are not covered.