Article: Planning To Fail

[Craig Arko]

(not particularly rooting for either team, just enjoying the game)

That sounds like a very pleasant experience, actually.

[wsnydes]

 

That sounds like a very pleasant experience, actually.

If you've never gone to a game in which you have no rooting interest, I highly recommend it.  It's great to just sit and watch a game for the pure enjoyment of it.  

[ashbury]

That sounds like a very pleasant experience, actually.

 

My apologies for the threadjack.

[savvyspy]

I have been watching baseball since 1976 and I have yet to see a successful organization fail to venture from the axiom that starting pitching and defense win in this league.

 

I think there is some evidence that you can get away with above average starting pitching with an elite bullpen.

 

Look at the direction of this franchise since 2010. There is a complete disregard for BOTH pitching and defense.

 

Defensively this team is an absolute mess. They've continually had infielders playing the outfield and the roster is littered with about 4-5 guys whose best position is probably DH. They are an absolute embarrassment defensively.

 

Pair that with about the only worse in the majors than the Twins defense is their pitching. Not only does their starting staff suck they get worse every year. They even look worse when teamed with this awful defense but they would be brutal with the Royals defense behind them too.

 

I can't say whether the Twins have a "plan". I would assume they do. I think the biggest issue is they have a fundamental problem of not understanding that you can only win games with pitching and defense over the long haul. Whatever "plan" they have seems to ignore this basic fact.

 

Until that changes, this organization will be anchored as the worst in the majors for a long time. 

[Winston Smith]

2011-2016 the Twins have 397 wins the least of any team in the Majors. Next is Miami with 418, this is the reality.

 

I think we all wish there was more positive stuff to talk about but this team really hasn't given us much and that is the reality.

 

I think everyone hopes the new people hired will turn things around and give us plenty to be happy about.

[Platoon]

No offense to Nick intended, but IMHO it's sh*t like this article that have made this site almost unreadable. The fact that I still come here so often speaks to what a strong fan of the Twins I am, and certainly not to the tone and quality of the content bring posted.

 

It has pretty much been reduced to the following:

 

Every move made by the Twins is sh*t. I know better than seasoned professionals what is right for this team. MY priorities are what matter, and if the team's don't align with them then they are wrong.

 

If a player isn't performing like an All-Star RIGHT NOW, he's crap and not worth a roster spot. Anyone under the age of 25 is ok, anyone older is crap. If an All-Star player like Dozier or Mauer go through a stretch of rough play for a period of weeks, he's crap, cooked, worthless.

 

Like all baseball video games have shown, a player performs at the same level all the time. And if his rating dips below All-Star, you trade him for a prospect that will always turn into a new All-Star, because that's how player development actually works.

 

 

Now imagine, a positive upbeat fan trying to follow his favorite team and having to wade through a sea of this sh*t every day.

And before anyone tells me that I'm out of touch with reality let me say that to a large extent, reality conforms to your attitude and mind-set. Reality is what you make it, or as ObiWan said, many of the truths we cling to depend on your point of view. I don't know, maybe there's just a hell of a lot of bitter, miserable, depressed people in Minnesota and on this site.

As in any argument, yours has a few valid points. But really, not everyone on here is always negative, nor one sided. But at one time or the other, everyone on here has been negative, and one sided. Including me. I can say with a certainty that I have followed this team as long as anyone. And even in the worst of years, I have never seen anything like this. Even in the Punto era, there was a plan, good defense, baserunning and awareness. Mediocre hitting and SP, and a decent BP. Always. This? This is a complete cluster. Does the web change the tenor of the discourse? Certainly. But these comments aren't made from fans who are casual, "buy a Torii Hunter in 2015" jersey types. They are mostly people who have followed for years and expect, rightfully, that after 6 years even a blind pig will find an acorn! I do not know if what I read this morning is accurate, but the article said that no draft choice from '13 or '14 is up yet? If that's true, on a team with these issues, from where does any optimism originate? And frankly if it's not totally accurate, the question remains the same?

[adorduan]

 

Wait. You're complaining about a post complaining about moves made by a team that is well on its way to its fifth 90-loss season in six years -- and quite possibly a 100-loss season?

 

Should people on this site just cheerlead every move they make? Really?

 

In my view, bloggers on this site -- and too many fans -- have been TOO patient with this team.

 

The perfect example of this was Terry Ryan. Many writers on this site gave him a pass when it came to constructing this team, even though he made several questionable free agent signings at a time when the team should have focused on development. They gave him all the credit for building the farm system even as other teams that were big losers at the time the Twins made their freefall have surged into contention behind the emergence of young players. 

 

Don't like all the negativity? Root for a winning team. 

No, but what is annoying, for example this thread, is that the players are totally blameless.  Example A: Sano is treated like a freaking GOD around here. Not one speck of criticism allowed!  the guy might not have a great work ethic? Impossible!! He's the greatest thing the ever pull on a Twins uniform. 

[alarp33]

 

2011-2016 the Twins have 397 wins the least of any team in the Majors. Next is Miami with 418, this is the reality.

 

I think we all wish there was more positive stuff to talk about but this team really hasn't given us much and that is the reality.

 

I think everyone hopes the new people hired will turn things around and give us plenty to be happy about.

 

This isn't true. Houston has 386 in that time frame

 

*I would much rather have bottomed out like Houston did, but the point remains they have less wins in that time

[Nick Nelson]

 

No, but what is annoying, for example this thread, is that the players are totally blameless.  Example A: Sano is treated like a freaking GOD around here. Not one speck of criticism allowed!  the guy might not have a great work ethic? Impossible!! He's the greatest thing the ever pull on a Twins uniform. 

He's not treated like a god. But what good does it do to a publicly admonish him for the kinds of struggles and lapses that affect nearly every young player in MLB, especially one that's been yanked around as much as him? And why does he get these types of criticisms while someone like Danny Santana floats by as one of the worst players in the major leagues for multiple years, essentially unscathed? 

[Craig Arko]

 

"someone like Danny Santana floats by as one of the worst players in the major leagues for multiple years, essentially unscathed?"

You must be reading posts at a different site from the one I do, sir.

[alarp33]

 

He's not treated like a god. But what good does it do to a publicly admonish him for the kinds of struggles and lapses that affect nearly every young player in MLB, especially one that's been yanked around as much as him? And why does he get these types of criticisms while someone like Danny Santana floats by as one of the worst players in the major leagues for multiple years, essentially unscathed? 

 

Also - I thought we were being too negative?  Positivity about Sano is not allowed now?

 

I agree with your comment about Santana, I've always found it interesting from the manager, to the broadcasters, to the reporters, basically nothing is ever said about how terrible he is, and how laughable it has become that he's practically a starting corner OFer now

[alarp33]

 

You must be reading posts at a different site from the one I do, sir.

 

He was likely referring to newspaper columnists, broadcasters, etc. when he said "publicly admonish" Sano and let Santana skate by.  It's pretty clear Sano has become a whipping boy for the media, while DanSan can get his 1st hit in 18 plate appearances and Bert or Dick will talk about that great at bat for a full inning. 

 

Have you ever once heard Lavelle or any of the other beat reporters question why Santana plays nearly every day?  

 

But we get a daily Sano's weight update from Reusse

Edited August 29, 2016 by alarp33

[DrNeau]

They've dropped 10 straight. Maybe planning to fail isn't too bad an idea? Let's get the #1 pick and not BLOW it when we get it. 

[Craig Arko]

 

He was likely referring to newspaper columnists, broadcasters, etc. when he said "publicly admonish" Sano and let Santana skate by.  It's pretty clear Sano has become a whipping boy for the media, while DanSan can get his 1st hit in 18 plate appearances and Bert or Dick will talk about that great at bat for a full inning. 

I guess. I rarely pay attention to most of those people.

[alarp33]

 

I guess. I rarely pay attention to most of those people.

 

The Danny Santana issue is one that bothers me more than anything, so I'm probably more sensitive to it than most.  But from what I've read/ heard Nick is absolutely right in that he gets a total free pass from Twins management to the local media.  

[mazeville]

 

No, but what is annoying, for example this thread, is that the players are totally blameless.  Example A: Sano is treated like a freaking GOD around here. Not one speck of criticism allowed!  the guy might not have a great work ethic? Impossible!! He's the greatest thing the ever pull on a Twins uniform. 

 

You're not reading the same site I am. I've read plenty of criticism here about Sano's work ethic.

 

Regardless, five 90-loss seasons in six years is not simply due to players. It suggests the team is failing to draft well, develop well or manage well, or likely some ugly combination of the three. It also suggests a systematic problem. 

 

That BEGS for criticism of the front office and those decisions. This team has not remotely earned the benefit of the doubt. The vast majority -- not just most -- of this team's moves in recent years have totally backfired. 

 

* The decision to keep Plouffe: Fail. 

* Signing Ervin Santana: Fine

* Signing Phil Hughes to a three-year deal: Fine

* Signing Phil Hughes to an extension: Disaster

* Signing Kurt Suzuki to an extension: Fail

* Signing Ricky Nolasco: Fail

* Signing Byung Ho Park: Fail

* Signing Mike Pelfrey: Fail

* Signing Kevin Correia: Fail

* Putting Sano in the outfield: Fail

* Development of Max Kepler: Good

* Development of Byron Buxton: Fail

* Development of Jose Berrios: Fail

 

I could go on.

 

How on Earth you expect people on this site to somehow give the front office a free pass and simply blame the players is beyond me. It's the GM's job to collect these players. If the vast majority of those players are not doing their jobs, then the problem goes directly to the front office. 

[ALessKosherScott]

I think saying there wasn't a plan isn't fair. Saying the plan didn't work, however, is.

 

The short right-field space was suppose to hide Sano's lack of range, like it did Cuddyer's last decade. It didn't.

 

Park was supposed to be the tailor-made right-handed DH for Target Field. He wasn't. But in his defense, he was before the wrist injury.

 

Hughes was supposed to be the new Radke. He got hurt.

 

May was supposed to make an impact in the bullpen. He got hurt.

 

Buxton was supposed to be ready to hit major league pitching, so much so we could flip Hicks for catching help. Neither part of that worked.

 

Berrios was supposed to become a ready-made ace. He hasn't shown the command for it.

 

And so on. And so forth.

 

Some years just aren't yours. This is one of those for the Twins.

[jimmer]

I'm curious why everyone is rushing to say Park's problem in the majors was his injury.  Did he not have the same injury while posting an OPS in the .820s in the minors?

[Vanimal46]

 

He's not treated like a god. But what good does it do to a publicly admonish him for the kinds of struggles and lapses that affect nearly every young player in MLB, especially one that's been yanked around as much as him? And why does he get these types of criticisms while someone like Danny Santana floats by as one of the worst players in the major leagues for multiple years, essentially unscathed? 

It's like you're my spirit animal today. 

http://media.giphy.com/media/xTiTnnDBu4yH1hVyDu/giphy.gif

[alarp33]

 

I think saying there wasn't a plan isn't fair. Saying the plan didn't work, however, is.

 

The short right-field space was suppose to hide Sano's lack of range, like it did Cuddyer's last decade. It didn't.

 

Park was supposed to be the tailor-made right-handed DH for Target Field. He wasn't. But in his defense, he was before the wrist injury.

 

Hughes was supposed to be the new Radke. He got hurt.

 

 

I'll pick on these.  

 

Sano's "lack of range" or maybe it was the fact he had never played a single professional inning in the outfield - something the Twins could have "planned" for easily by trading Plouffe from December - March?

 

We're the Twins lacking in Right handed DH bats? 

 

Hughes was supposed to be the next Radke?  Oh boy I don't even know how to answer this one.  I mean I don't think even Phil Hughes agent thought he was the next Radke

 

 

[jimmer]

 

I'll pick on these.  

 

Sano's "lack of range" or maybe it was the fact he had never played a single professional inning in the outfield - something the Twins could have "planned" for easily by trading Plouffe from December - March?

 

We're the Twins lacking in Right handed DH bats? 

 

Hughes was supposed to be the next Radke?  Oh boy I don't even know how to answer this one.  I mean I don't think even Phil Hughes agent thought he was the next Radke

Yeah, Hughes had one outlier season and TR jumped all over it.  His fall back to reality in 2015 was predictable. In fact it was predicted.

 

And the Sano decision was horrible from the on-set and it failed for all the reasons given before he ever stepped foot out there for a game.

Edited August 29, 2016 by jimmer

[Winston Smith]

 

This isn't true. Houston has 386 in that time frame

 

*I would much rather have bottomed out like Houston did, but the point remains they have less wins in that time

Sorry miss added everything is ok then my bad.

[mazeville]

 

 

Some years just aren't yours. This is one of those for the Twins.

 

But we're now talking about five years that "just aren't" the Twins' in six years. This is going to be a 100-loss season. That's not bad luck. That's bad everything. 

 

Phil Hughes got hurt this year. But he wasn't good last year. Moving Sano to the outfield was a bad idea all around. Signing Park wasn't that bad of a move. But signing Park when you have a logjam of players who would be better off playing DH was an unnecessary expenditure for a team that desperately needed more pitching, more catching and more defense.

 

Trading Hicks and not Trevor Plouffe when Buxton was a giant question mark heading into the season was a bad decision.

 

I'll buy it that bad luck had something to do with the team's run of bad seasons. But this team has also made some really questionable decisions.

[Thrylos]

Cannot disagree much with this, but kinda have to get it in perspective.  The Ryan Twins never had any sort of visible, rational plans.  

 

In the 90s, the general plan for the Ryan teams was:  Sell everyone with value for whatever, sign every old Minnesotan as a free agent, close holes with whatever comes cheap, and do a dumpster dive to fill in the blanks.

 

In the 00s, the general plan for the Ryan teams was: Sell everyone with value for whatever, sign every old Minnesotan as a free agent, close holes with whatever comes cheap, and do a dumpster dive to fill in the blanks, have no judgement about who should stay or who should go (Ortiz vs. LeCroy; Tyner the DH in the team that had both the CY and MVP award winners.)

 

In the 10s, the general plan for the Ryan teams was: Sell everyone with value for whatever, sign every old Minnesotan as a free agent, close holes with whatever comes cheap, and do a dumpster dive to fill in the blanks, have no judgement about who should stay or who should go (and extend players after career years)

 

Sounds more like a reactionary Modus Operanti than a plan to me...

[wsnydes]

 

 

Some years just aren't yours. This is one of those for the Twins.

 

Tell that to the season ticket holders that have endured this for half a decade's worth of years that just weren't theirs.

Edited August 29, 2016 by wsnydes

[Platoon]

I'll pick on these.  

 

Sano's "lack of range" or maybe it was the fact he had never played a single professional inning in the outfield - something the Twins could have "planned" for easily by trading Plouffe from December - March?

 

We're the Twins lacking in Right handed DH bats? 

 

Hughes was supposed to be the next Radke?  Oh boy I don't even know how to answer this one.  I mean I don't think even Phil Hughes agent thought he was the next Radke

And I might add, Sano did not lack range, re lacked the ability to end up in the same general area the fly ball was landing in. More or less a large version of Grossmann. Phil Hughes has a history of on and off seasons, and still does. As for May, even if you can excuse or justify his move to the BP, you cannot excuse the teams refusal to re-stretch him when it was apparent that his body did not respond well to short rests, nor a plethora of quality starters stood in his way. That's where the big mistake on May was, and apparently remains.

[Doomtints]

 

I think saying there wasn't a plan isn't fair. Saying the plan didn't work, however, is.

 

The short right-field space was suppose to hide Sano's lack of range, like it did Cuddyer's last decade. It didn't.

 

 

Actually, Sano's RF numbers are better than Cuddyer's were.  Look it up, yo.

[ALessKosherScott]

 

I'll pick on these.  

 

Sano's "lack of range" or maybe it was the fact he had never played a single professional inning in the outfield - something the Twins could have "planned" for easily by trading Plouffe from December - March?

 

We're the Twins lacking in Right handed DH bats? 

 

Hughes was supposed to be the next Radke?  Oh boy I don't even know how to answer this one.  I mean I don't think even Phil Hughes agent thought he was the next Radke

 

When you look back on something and know how it's going to work out, it's easy to pick it apart. It's harder to do it in December 2015.

 

Sano is no more a third baseman right now than a right fielder. So faulting them for not trading a good third baseman in Plouffe is fun. They tried the same tricks that worked for a similar defensive tooled Cuddyer ten years ago. It failed. But it was a decent enough idea to try and keep Sano from first base.

 

Yes, the Twins were lacking right handed bats who could DH in December. It's not like you could count on Vargas to turn things around. 

 

And yes, the control-oriented Phil Hughes year last year looked a lot like the bad Radke year in 2015. At that point, a bounce back year was within the realm of possibility.

 

You can't fault Ryan for not having a plan. The real problem is the plan hasn't adapted much over the last decade.

[wsnydes]

 

When you look back on something and know how it's going to work out, it's easy to pick it apart. It's harder to do it in December 2015.

 

Sano is no more a third baseman right now than a right fielder. So faulting them for not trading a good third baseman in Plouffe is fun. They tried the same tricks that worked for a similar defensive tooled Cuddyer ten years ago. It failed. But it was a decent enough idea to try and keep Sano from first base.

 

Yes, the Twins were lacking right handed bats who could DH in December. It's not like you could count on Vargas to turn things around. 

 

And yes, the control-oriented Phil Hughes year last year looked a lot like the bad Radke year in 2015. At that point, a bounce back year was within the realm of possibility.

 

You can't fault Ryan for not having a plan. The real problem is the plan hasn't adapted much over the last decade.

The point you're missing on Sano in RF is that they had in-house options for RF (Arcia and Kepler).  They had in-house options for 3B even if Sano couldn't play 3B and they traded Plouffe (Nunez, Escobar, Polanco to fill out two positions).  They signed Park, which filled the one spot you could fall back on should Sano be unable to field a position.  Instead, they left themselves with no good options on what to do with Sano and created a log jam at 1B/DH all because you didn't move on from Plouffe.

 

With Hughes, TR believed in the lone outlier year and believed that to be the new norm.  That flies in the face of a much larger sample that more closely resembles the Hughes that appeared last year.

 

Plan for the worst, hope for the best.  TR made a habit of planning for the best hoping to avoid the worst.  That leaves you no margin for error.  If the plan was to fit pieces of different puzzles together to try to make one puzzle and having no backup plan should that fail, that isn't much of a plan.  

Edited August 29, 2016 by wsnydes

[Kwak]

I've posted many times criticizing the FO, but some times they actually know a few things. The end result is awful, because only the most brazen apple-polisher would endlessly praise management.

 

The over evaluation of Twins players: Sano is nothing close to a lengendary talent. Ryan (and likely others) realized he is awful at 3B and maybe he could be tucked into the OF like Killebrew and many others. The overpraise heaped on Sano (and possibly the example of David Ortiz, money, and defense is optional if you hit enough) has reduced Sano to DH/1B only.

 

The Twins need hitting! The star of this season screamed that fact--so did early August. Hence, not only did Sano have to be in the lineup--other power hitters were also needed! Here comes Park from Korea. Signing Park was only a failure borne from the need for hitting, it was some clueless, random act. The Twins knew they needed more offense and Park might do the trick "on the cheap".

 

Trevor May. Yikes! Posters make it sound as if the Twins weren't aware of the need for starting pitching--I'm certain they did know. May was not "awesome"--ordinary at best on a staff that was threadbare of starting pitching. It's easy to claim that he would have been better than those used in the rotation this year--but based on last season (and gag, 2014) why didn't May demonstrate that he was "the man"? Trevor might (or might not) be tried for next year's rotation--but there is no assurance that he will be successful there. Trevor's 2016 season sure doesn't suggest that.

It is preposterous to claim there was no plan for him--there definitely was a plan! Shut-down, end-of-the-game relief pitcher. Shut the opponents down after 6 innings! (Along with others). To claim his failure was because he was used in relief is unsubstantiated. Ok, I understand May thinks he was screwed by the selection last year of Pelfrey to remain in the rotation instead of himself. Seeing how well things turned-out for Pelfrey by using his agent to secure a post for himself doesn't equate to likewise for Trevor. Bad backs happen--and for many reasons--sometimes it is the player's fault. We will never know.

 

Failure of other prospects. YES! there is real meat here. An exhaustive study, likely resulting in a total rebuke of the entire franchise. Perhaps this is where May's trouble really occurred rather than in the bullpen. I can foresee many threads coming on this subject--but not on "no plan".