Article: Painted Into A Corner (Infield Crunch)

[nicksaviking]

 

There was one really easy way to avoid putting Sano in the OF:

 

Do not sign Byung-Ho Park.

 

Problem solved.

 

This wasn't only a Plouffe vs. Sano issue. Had other roster decisions been made in the offseason, it becomes a non-issue.

 

I was fine with the Park signing, but like everyone else (including Terry Ryan likely), I thought that meant Plouffe was going to be traded.

 

When Ryan saw the market for Plouffe wasn't what he expected, he really had three realistic options at that point. 1) Trade Plouffe for peanuts and possibly eat some salary. 2) Non-tender Plouffe. 3) Tell Paul Molitor in no uncertain terms that barring injury Plouffe would be a bench bat and a utility player until further notice.

 

Bottom line, I think other organizations could have signed Park under the same circumstances but would have been able to deal with this situation in a way that would not have left us still talking about it in August. Option 4) was just ridiculous, though I guess there should be a modicum of credit for really, really thinking outside the box.

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

I was fine with the Park signing, but like everyone else (including Terry Ryan likely), I thought that mean Plouffe was going to be traded.

 

When Ryan saw the market for Plouffe wasn't what he expected, he really had three realistic options at that point. 1) Trade Plouffe for peanuts and possibly eat some salary. 2) Non-tender Plouffe. 3) Tell Paul Molitor in no uncertain terms that barring injury Plouffe would be a bench bat and a utility player until further notice.

 

Bottom line, I think other organizations could have signed Park under the same circumstances but would have been able to deal with this situation in a way that would not have left us still talking about it in August. Option 4) was just ridiculous, though I guess there should be a modicum of credit for really, really thinking outside the box.

Sure. My point is there were multiple options available to avoid Sano playing games in right field. Obviously, none of them were explored.

[jorgenswest]

Predictions made, which is ridiculous since we don't even know who the GM is:

 

Park is in the minors or on another team next year.

Dozier is here, and the 2B next year

Plouffe is traded or non-tendered this off season.

Sano is the 3B next spring and also plays DH (no OF, w/o an in game emergency)

Mauer is the 1B next year.

Vargas is the regular DH.

Polanco plays SS, 3B, DH, 2B (from most games to least)

Escobar is the bench guy, and plays SS when Polanco does not

Like this.

 

Polanco in LF seems more plausible than Sano in RF. I would think he can at least get close to the Robbie Grossman level of defense. He helps because Rosario, Kepler, Buxton and Santana all hit better against right handed pitching over their major league at bats. It doesn't need to be a strict platoon but it would help if Polanco took LF against a left handed pitcher for one of the starters and sitting or shifting Rosario to one of the two other spots.

[jorgenswest]

Let's look forward.

 

Tendering Plouffe will give him a contract that is not tradeable. Do they tender him? If not, do they let him go without compensation if claimed this August?

[Mike Sixel]

 

Let's look forward.

Tendering Plouffe will give him a contract that is not tradeable. Do they tender him? If not, do they let him go without compensation if claimed this August?

 

I would, but I'm not the GM (and everyone should be happy about that).

[kab21]

 

Predictions made, which is ridiculous since we don't even know who the GM is:

 

Park is in the minors or on another team next year.

Dozier is here, and the 2B next year

Plouffe is traded or non-tendered this off season.

Sano is the 3B next spring and also plays DH (no OF, w/o an in game emergency)

Mauer is the 1B next year.

Vargas is the regular DH.

Polanco plays SS, 3B, DH, 2B (from most games to least)

Escobar is the bench guy, and plays SS when Polanco does not

This is what I prefer although I would probably start Escobar and let Polanco get 2 starts at SS (Escobar sit) and 2 starts at 3B (Vargas and Mauer sit one) each week.

 

I also see everyone's favorite Danny Santana returning. I would actually like this if they would play him like a 25th player on the roster instead of starting him 3-4 times/wk.

[Vanimal46]

 

Let's look forward.

Tendering Plouffe will give him a contract that is not tradeable. Do they tender him? If not, do they let him go without compensation if claimed this August?

Absolutely not on tendering Plouffe. I'd be perfectly fine letting him go for nothing this off-season. 

[nicksaviking]

 

Sure. My point is there were multiple options available to avoid Sano playing games in right field. Obviously, none of them were explored.

 

Should have consulted a search firm.

[Willihammer]

Molitor absolutely must devote 100% of the rest of 2016 to figuring out if he can deal with Sano's glove over the entire 2017 season. The Twins can tender / non-tender Plouffe with confidence that way, and figure out a plan to deal with the surplus 1B/DH players if necessary. But the worst thing Molitor could do is split up 3B PT the rest of the way and go into 2017 still uncertain about Sano's glove. Non-tendering Plouffe only to find out midway through 2017 that Sano's glove won't cut it, opens up a bunch of PT to Escobar or another futility player.

[Squirrel]

 

Predictions made, which is ridiculous since we don't even know who the GM is:

 

Park is in the minors or on another team next year.

Dozier is here, and the 2B next year

Plouffe is traded or non-tendered this off season.

Sano is the 3B next spring and also plays DH (no OF, w/o an in game emergency)

Mauer is the 1B next year.

Vargas is the regular DH.

Polanco plays SS, 3B, DH, 2B (from most games to least)

Escobar is the bench guy, and plays SS when Polanco does not

 

but I'm not the GM (and everyone should be happy about that).

I think you did okay as GM. That was the purpose of the article, what would you do if ... and I think you laid it all out pretty well. You're hired!

[sthpstm]

Deal from strength to improve a weakness. The issue is that trading Plouffe, Vargas, and/or Park will not bring much back right now.

If you want an ace you have to deal high value back. I would trade Sano, as difficult as it is. My target would be a controllable pitcher such as Steven Matz, Lucas Giolito, Julio Urias, or someone similar. With Matz, I would consider including Kyle Gibson but would need something additional (Rosario is the dream or Cecchini the fall back). 

You still may need to trade one of Vargas or Park.

Next years infield is Mauer/Dozier/Plouffe/Escobar/Polanco/Vargas or Park with Cecchini and Vielma ready in AAA. Your rotation is now Matz/Santana/Berrios/Santiago/Duffy/Meija/May/Wheeler, and the current AA pitchers (Gonsalves) in waiting.

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

If you want an ace you have to deal high value back. I would trade Sano, as difficult as it is. My target would be a controllable pitcher such as Steven Matz, Lucas Giolito, Julio Urias, or someone similar. With Matz, I would consider including Kyle Gibson but would need something additional (Rosario is the dream or Cecchini the fall back). 

Whooaaaaaaa.

 

1. Trading a position player for a pitcher is a risky game, as pitchers collapse into oblivion much more regularly. Plus, they only play every fifth day.

 

2. Sano and Gibson for Matz? No. NONONONONONO.

 

On his own, Sano is a more valuable player than Matz. I wouldn't even do that trade straight-up, much less throw in another player. The Mets would be certifiably insane not to jump on that trade before you even finished the sentence, which means your offer is askew.

[Vanimal46]

30+ HR hitters with good plate discipline don't grow on trees. If you think we hold a grudge about David Ortiz, imagine the grudge we'd have if Sano was traded. 

[kab21]

Let's just put the brakes on dealing Sano. I don't care if he only DH's.

[sthpstm]

Pitching and defense, and more pitching. There would need to be other pieces, but yes, I think the Twins should consider a Sano trade if it brings back a top SP.

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

Pitching and defense, and more pitching. There would need to be other pieces, but yes, I think the Twins should consider a Sano trade if it brings back a top SP.

I just don't see it. Sano is a cornerstone piece. You're swapping cornerstone pieces at that point.

 

If you can pull from the minors and deal a combination of Jay, Polanco, Gordon, etc. to get a pitcher, maybe... But not Sano. Never Sano.

 

And I still don't get why people are so hung up on "ace=success". There are plenty of teams that get by without Clayton Kershaw, who has zero World Series rings himself.

 

Yeah, any time you improve at a position, your team gets better. That's great. But with Berrios already on the roster, the Twins *may* not need an "ace". If Berrios turns into a #2, pick up another #2 and then your pitching staff is suddenly pretty good. If your offense is bonkers (which the Twins might have next year), that's a very good team.

[Mike Sixel]

 

Pitching and defense, and more pitching. There would need to be other pieces, but yes, I think the Twins should consider a Sano trade if it brings back a top SP.

 

While I would love to get an "ace".....It is super risky to trade a star hitter for a star pitcher. Pitchers get hurt. A Lot. If you knew Sale would be healthy, or whomever, sure, teams would do that.....but imagine how expensive pitchers would be if we could keep them healthy...

[Winston Smith]

Just as long as DanSan is on the roster and plays nearly every day I'm ok with whatever else gets done.

 

 

[ThejacKmp]

I don't think it's possible to paint yourself out of a corner. You can paint yourself into a corner but then you can't do anything with the paint to get out. And if you never paint yourself into a corner in the first place, it's not called painting yourself out of a corner, it's just called painting.

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

While I would love to get an "ace".....It is super risky to trade a star hitter for a star pitcher. Pitchers get hurt. A Lot. If you knew Sale would be healthy, or whomever, sure, teams would do that.....but imagine how expensive pitchers would be if we could keep them healthy...

Yeah, ask the A's how they feel about Sonny Gray or the Diamondbacks how they feel about Shelby Miller.

 

And those guys are "healthy".

 

Pitching is too fickle compared to positional players. Never mind the risk of injury or Tommy John surgery but how common is it to see a pitcher lose just that "little something" and turn a great pitcher into a mediocre pitcher or a good pitcher into a bad pitcher? We see it throughout baseball every year.

 

I'm all on board with the Twins pursuing a good starter. I'm probably not on board with them auctioning the farm for an "ace". Too much can go wrong there.

[jimmer]

Never trade Polanco.  Ever.

[Taildragger8791]

 

Just as long as DanSan is on the roster and plays nearly every day I'm ok with whatever else gets done.

 

Found Molitor's TD account. Do you have to list Winston Smith as an alias on legal paperwork?

[Taildragger8791]

 

Never trade Polanco.  Ever.

 

Seconded. I don't know why some people are so bent on trading him. I think he's going to be a great "glue" piece that does a bit of everything to help win games.

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

Never trade Polanco.  Ever.

It would take quite a bit to pry Polanco away from me but if he's part of a package to return a good #2 pitcher, that's a move you have to consider.

 

The Twins have Dozier and Escobar on the team. They have Gordon in the upper minors next season. I don't *want* to trade Polanco but if it improves the team, I give it a lot of thought.

[South Dakota Tom]

Of all the options, I like the 26-man roster the best!    I can see that being a part of the next cba, given the super-specialization and the union wanting that many more players with big league deals.

 

Mauer, Dozier, Polanco/Escobar, Sano; Rosario, Buxton, Kepler; Centeno/Murphy, plus Vargas, DanSan and Grossman.     Means dropping Suzuki (no multi-year deal, please) and Plouffe (August or non-tender).

 

Gives us a bench of a back-up catcher (possibly Garver instead of one of the above), Escobar, DanSan, Grossman.    IF (big if) we can go down to 12 pitchers at any point, there is a spot created for Park or ABW or Palka.

 

In my mind this creates positional flexibility at 1b (Mauer, Park, Vargas, Kepler, Palka), 2b (Dozier, Polanco, Santana, Escobar), SS (Escobar, Polanco, Santana), 3b (Sano, Polanco, Escobar), and a primary three outfielders with Santana, Walker, Palka, Grossman also available.   I'd like to see Vargas get lots of at-bats at DH, but also find a way to get Park/ABW/Palka into the lineup at DH occasionally.    That is a young, fast, powerful team.

 

Then we buy (or trade milb talent for) the best starter we can find.  Gibson, Santana, Berrios, new starter and competition between May, Duffy, Santiago, Mejia for 5th starter spot, plus necessary placeholders when starters go down.    You add one fine name to that list (help me here, please?) and you have a serviceable rotation.

[jimmer]

 

It would take quite a bit to pry Polanco away from me but if he's part of a package to return a good #2 pitcher, that's a move you have to consider.

 

The Twins have Dozier and Escobar on the team. They have Gordon in the upper minors next season. I don't *want* to trade Polanco but if it improves the team, I give it a lot of thought.

For me, Escobar is a non-factor and we have no idea how Gordon will be in a few years.  I wouldn't take either of them into consideration. 

 

 

Dozier, he should be putout there for trade bait as an established 2Ber so we can have the younger on base machine (Polanco) play 2B.  He won't be, but should be. 

 

Polanco should be the everyday shortstop right now until Gordon forces him out (if Gordon is ever good enough for that to happen). Then he needs to be moved to 2B to replace Dozier.

Edited August 9, 2016 by jimmer

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

For me, Escobar is a non-factor and we have no idea how Gordon will be in a few years.  I wouldn't take either of them into consideration.  Dozier, he should be putout there for trade bait as an established 2Ber so we can have the younger on base machine (Polanco) play 2B.

Sure, I'd rather trade Dozier but if a team is looking to deal a cost-controlled pitcher, it's possibly (probably likely) they will only consider Polanco.

 

But there are other players (mainly MiLB) I'd try to push out the door before Polanco. I think he can be part of the core of the team for a while.

[Mike Sixel]

Polanco and your 2nd or 3rd favorite AA pitcher for Archer? He hasn't been great this year.......

[alarp33]

 

Polanco and your 2nd or 3rd favorite AA pitcher for Archer? He hasn't been great this year.......

 

Check out Archer's contract.  Going to take WAYYY more than that.  Wouldn't surprise me if it took more to get Archer than it will to get Sale

[nicksaviking]

 

For me, Escobar is a non-factor and we have no idea how Gordon will be in a few years.  I wouldn't take either of them into consideration. 

 

I'm hopeful on Gordon, but there's no way I'm presuming he's going to be good enough to make Escobar a non-factor.