Article: Setting Up For The Second Half

[bluechipper]

 

Switching out Vargas for Park, just to see if there is some juice in Vargas being a bench player, if nothing more. See if he can produce anything at the major league level. It would increase his value. And, in the meantime, rotate Plouffe, Mauer and Sano between DH, 1B and 3B...thru the All-Star break at least.

Vargas is hitting .234 with a .776 OPS in AAA this year, so not much to be excited about. I'd rather bring Polanco up, send Park down, and then rotate the DH spot.

[bluechipper]

 

Uff da, that's a tough one.  Well, you could market Buxton on prospect status, recent stellar performance at AAA and youth.  Maybe a couple prospects in return?

I absolutely do not want to trade Byron Buxton, but if they did, I would expect/want nothing less than a Chris Archer/Steven Matz type of return.

[Otto von Ballpark]

 

Not going to bother going back to 3 pages but the impression I got was that people were complaining about him pitching in relief again.

Nick wrote, "May made his first rehab appearance in Rochester as a reliever yesterday, which isn't the most promising sign, but hopefully the plan changes."

 

The relief appearance is a relatively small component of the complaint.  It's the larger plan (or lack thereof).

[alarp33]

 

Why wouldn't the Twins trade Santana if the right offer came along and they could get something of value for him?  He's been busted for PED's, he's 33 and he's only under contract for two more years.  The Twins aren't going to extend him beyond age 35/36.  This team is a 100 loss team with or without him.    

 

You literally replied to a post where I stated why the Twins wouldn't trade Santana right now.  

 

Because they hardly have 5 working pulses to put in a rotation next year, and it's likely trading him would just cause TR to sign another mediocre at best veteran to a long term deal

Edited June 27, 2016 by alarp33

[MileHighTwinsFan]

 

.196 /.315/.304:

 

Grossman's slash line the last 2 weeks

 

 .300/.345/.480:

 

Rosario's slash line the last 2 weeks.

 

Not arguing that Rosario has been hot and Grossman had cooled off.  However, Grossman is still taking walks, which is keeping his OBP at a reasonable level.  When Rosario slumps, he doesn't have his ability to work a walk as an option.  

 

Rosario was .200/.218/.313 with the Twins this year.  With a similar batting average between the two of them- Grossman is a 100 points better than Rosario on OBP.  I think the stats make my point - Grossman is a far more consistent, if not as flashy presence in the lineup.  

[Blackjack]

 

Nick wrote, "May made his first rehab appearance in Rochester as a reliever yesterday, which isn't the most promising sign, but hopefully the plan changes."

 

The relief appearance is a relatively small component of the complaint.  It's the larger plan (or lack thereof).

Does anybody outside of the Twins really know what the plan for May is??  People are 'assuming' that the Twins are going to leave him relief just because he appeared in relief - but doesn't he have to appear in relief in order to work up to starting??

[laloesch]

 

You literally replied to a post where I stated why the Twins wouldn't trade Santana right now.  

 

Because they hardly have 5 working pulses to put in a rotation next year, and it's likely trading him would just cause TR to sign another mediocre at best veteran to a long term deal

 

Is it illegal to disagree with your previous post?  

 

"There seems to be a lot of people in this, and other threads that want to trade Ervin Santana.  I'm not a big fan of his, and understand he might have some value (at least compared to the Plouffe's, Suzukis, etc.).. but if he is traded, who in the hell is in the 2017 rotation?

 

I count 7 pulses by the way (Milone, May, Berrios, Gibson, Nolasco, Hughes, duffey).  Not counting Dean or Darnell.

 

And with the exception of Nolasco and Hughes the rest are a heck of a lot cheaper than Santana.  

Edited June 27, 2016 by laloesch

[Mike Sixel]

I'm not sure the money matters, if they don't carry over money from year to year......they won't be buying FAs next year, it is a terrible class.

 

I do get both sides of the Santana argument, though.

[jimmer]

 

.196 /.315/.304:

 

Grossman's slash line the last 2 weeks

 

 .300/.345/.480:

 

Rosario's slash line the last 2 weeks.

Hmmm, my info says Grossman slash the last two weeks is: .167/.286/.215 (gives him a nice round number for his OPS: .500).

Edited June 27, 2016 by jimmer

[Mr. Brooks]

Does anybody outside of the Twins really know what the plan for May is?? People are 'assuming' that the Twins are going to leave him relief just because he appeared in relief - but doesn't he have to appear in relief in order to work up to starting??

No, he doesn't. It's the minor leagues.

No reason he can't start and go 2 to 3 innings.

Heck, even if he started and only went 1 inning, that would still be different. It's a different routine and mindset, starting vs relieving.

[troyhobbs]

 

Not arguing that Rosario has been hot and Grossman had cooled off.  However, Grossman is still taking walks, which is keeping his OBP at a reasonable level.  When Rosario slumps, he doesn't have his ability to work a walk as an option.  

 

Rosario was .200/.218/.313 with the Twins this year.  With a similar batting average between the two of them- Grossman is a 100 points better than Rosario on OBP.  I think the stats make my point - Grossman is a far more consistent, if not as flashy presence in the lineup.  

Take away some speed and arm strength and add a little contact and Grossman is basically Aaron Hicks. Which isn't bad considering it looks like they were fleeced on the JRM trade. I don't mind him in the mix but certainly should not be considered an OF cornerstone at this point. Of course either should Rosario so I guess I don't really have a point....at least there are solid options for a 4th OF once they find 3 starters.

[bluechipper]

 

Take away some speed and arm strength and add a little contact and Grossman is basically Aaron Hicks. Which isn't bad considering it looks like they were fleeced on the JRM trade. I don't mind him in the mix but certainly should not be considered an OF cornerstone at this point. Of course either should Rosario so I guess I don't really have a point....at least there are solid options for a 4th OF once they find 3 starters.

Aaron Hicks has a .609 OPS for the season. I don't think "fleeced" is the right word.

[troyhobbs]

 

Aaron Hicks has a .609 OPS for the season. I don't think "fleeced" is the right word.

Lol, probably using the term loosely but at least he's playing in the big leauges

[Nick Nelson]

 

Not sure saying Grossman does not fit into the long term plans makes sense.  While not a flashy player - he is a mature and stable presence in the lineup right now.  He takes walks, can hit with power and is a solid if not stellar defender.  In many respects he is everything Rosario is not.  

You could sub in Arcia's name for Rosario there too. It's kind of odd to me that so many people are convinced Arcia will be a late bloomer while ruling out the same possibility for Grossman, who is the same age Oswaldo will be next year. 

 

They have very different standout skills. With Grossman, its patience and getting on base. With Arcia, it's power. Seems to be much more frequent that a guy develops additional pop in his mid-to-late 20s compared to developing patience. Perhaps we're seeing that with Grossman, whose 11 HR between MLB and AAA this year are already approaching his career high of 13?

[Mr. Brooks]

Aaron Hicks has a .609 OPS for the season. I don't think "fleeced" is the right word.

JR Murphy sits at .229.

Thats OPS, not batting average.

Too early to judge, but IF we did, the Yankees got the better by a landslide.

[ScrapTheNickname]

 

Yah kind of lost me by saying Rosario's D is iffy.      Did you get spoiled by the Gold Glove play of D. Young and Willingham?

Dante, you've been in hell too long.

 

Rosario's has a -4 dWAR in 2016.

His routes are not crisp like Buxton's and Kepler's.

Of course he is a world better than Willingham or D. Young, but that is like comparing hind steak to  chuck (I looked it up, okay).

Rosario has zero plate discipline (18 walks in 154 mlb games) and for that to fly he had better hit like Tony Oliva or Vlad Guerrero, which he never will.

So ... why bring him back up?

More of the same.

More of the same.

More of the same.

"Turn him loose, let him go ... let him say he outdrew me fair and square. I want him to feel what it's like to every moment face his death." (Brownsville Girl)

Spare us the aggravation of waiting around for it to happen two, three, or five years from now.

 

Edited June 27, 2016 by ScrapTheNickname

[Otto von Ballpark]

 

Does anybody outside of the Twins really know what the plan for May is??  People are 'assuming' that the Twins are going to leave him relief just because he appeared in relief - but doesn't he have to appear in relief in order to work up to starting??

People are assuming it not just because he appeared in relief -- but because they also haven't said anything to the contrary.  Teams usually announce changes like this.  The relief appearance, with the 96 MPH velocity, AND the absence of an announcement strongly suggest that they are not changing anything in regards to May at the present time.

 

Do you think the Twins are actively moving him back to the rotation right now and are just keeping it secret?  For what reason?  Don't tell me it's to boost the trade value of Santana, Nolasco, and Milone...

Edited June 27, 2016 by spycake

[troyhobbs]

 

You could sub in Arcia's name for Rosario there too. It's kind of odd to me that so many people are convinced Arcia will be a late bloomer while ruling out the same possibility for Grossman, who is the same age Oswaldo will be next year. 

 

They have very different standout skills. With Grossman, its patience and getting on base. With Arcia, it's power. Seems to be much more frequent that a guy develops additional pop in his mid-to-late 20s compared to developing patience. Perhaps we're seeing that with Grossman, whose 11 HR between MLB and AAA this year are already approaching his career high of 13?

I don't think (most) folks were necessarily convinced Arcia would be a late bloomer so much as why dump his potential for nothing when there were plenty of roster moves available that wouldn't have costed them a player.

[alarp33]

 

Is it illegal to disagree with your previous post?  

 

"There seems to be a lot of people in this, and other threads that want to trade Ervin Santana.  I'm not a big fan of his, and understand he might have some value (at least compared to the Plouffe's, Suzukis, etc.).. but if he is traded, who in the hell is in the 2017 rotation?

 

I count 7 pulses by the way (Milone, May, Berrios, Gibson, Nolasco, Hughes, duffey).  Not counting Dean or Darnell.

 

And with the exception of Nolasco and Hughes the rest are a heck of a lot cheaper than Santana.  

 

You certainly can disagree.  You asked me a question "Why wouldn't the Twins trade Santana?" when replying to a post I wrote that laid out the reasons I wouldn't trade him. 

 

Trevor May is not a starter according to the people in charge of this organization.  I hope there are new people in charge by this offseason, but for now there is no reason to assume he will be a rotation option.  

 

Tommy Milone?  The guy who 6 weeks ago cleared waivers? You think the Twins are going to offer him arbitration and slot him into a rotation spot next season?  Say he stays in the rotation the rest of this season and pitches ok.. ~$6 million arbitration? NO

 

What makes you think Nolasco or Hughes should be counted on for anything next season, let alone take up 40% of the starting rotation?

[bluechipper]

 

People are assuming it not just because he appeared in relief -- but because they also haven't said anything to the contrary.  Teams usually announce changes like this.  The relief appearance, with the 96 MPH velocity, AND the absence of an announcement strongly suggest that they are not changing anything in regards to May at the present time.

 

Do you think the Twins are actively moving him back to the rotation right now and are just keeping it secret?  For what reason?  Don't tell me it's to boost the trade value of Santana, Nolasco, and Milone...

Also, during the game on Saturday, Terry Ryan mentioned Trevor May along with Ryan Pressly as guys who he liked when he was asked something about the bullpen.

[laloesch]

 

You certainly can disagree.  You asked me a question "Why wouldn't the Twins trade Santana?" when replying to a post I wrote that laid out the reasons I wouldn't trade him. 

 

Trevor May is not a starter according to the people in charge of this organization.  I hope there are new people in charge by this offseason, but for now there is no reason to assume he will be a rotation option.  

 

Tommy Milone?  The guy who 6 weeks ago cleared waivers? You think the Twins are going to offer him arbitration and slot him into a rotation spot next season?  Say he stays in the rotation the rest of this season and pitches ok.. ~$6 million arbitration? NO

 

What makes you think Nolasco or Hughes should be counted on for anything next season, let alone take up 40% of the starting rotation?

 

All of these questions are legit, but it doesn't matter what I think.  What matters is how the Twins have consistently used these pitchers up to this point. Santana, Nolasco, Hughes, Milone, Gibson have all been used as starters.   The results, putrid.  

[Mike Sixel]

 

Also, during the game on Saturday, Terry Ryan mentioned Trevor May along with Ryan Pressly as guys who he liked when he was asked something about the bullpen.

 

My eyes, what have you done to my eyes!

[alarp33]

 

You could sub in Arcia's name for Rosario there too. It's kind of odd to me that so many people are convinced Arcia will be a late bloomer while ruling out the same possibility for Grossman, who is the same age Oswaldo will be next year. 

 

They have very different standout skills. With Grossman, its patience and getting on base.

 

You realize the reason talk about Arcia differently than Grossman is because he actually has done it, right? Grossman's "standout" skill led to a .327 OBP entering this season.  

 

Arcia's standout skill led to 34 home runs before his 24th birthday, and a 100 and 108 OPS+ season.  

 

* I'm not trying to bash Grossman, I'd keep playing him for now.  For me Grossman > Rosario... but lets not act like this was Arcia vs Grossman here.  It was Arcia vs a 29 year old DH who's hitting under .200, Arcia vs DanSan, Arcia vs a Neil Ramirez.  

[Craig Arko]

I gotta say, I think it was mostly Arcia vs. Arcia. Sometimes we're our own worst enemy. And sometimes an external change is required to help with that. I feel it in my own job every day; I wouldn't much mind being traded to the Rays.

[troyhobbs]

 

I gotta say, I think it was mostly Arcia vs. Arcia. Sometimes we're our own worst enemy. And sometimes an external change is required to help with that. I feel it in my own job every day; I wouldn't much mind being traded to the Rays.

You're not going to Tampa.  Your boss is smarter than that....

[Darius]

Are we really inserting Grossman into future plans here? The guy had a few good weeks, and will come back to earth (arguably, he already has).

 

If he maintains that 1.000 OPS another month, I'll start getting serious about him. But, I'm not ready to have him block Rosario, Buxton, or even Walker quite yet.

 

I know they can't....but if they could swap him for a serviceable veteran defense-only catcher for next year (hopefully in a back-up role), I would strongly consider it.

 

This is one of the front offices major, and one of many, flaws. They keep these scrap heap guys who have a couple of good weeks around way, way, way, way too long, and block prospects. I'm guessing it all comes down to some ego-driven "we coached them up when nobody could" attitude, with a little Pohlad penny pinching sprinkled in.

[stringer bell]

The Twins need to get down to 12 pitchers. They should have Rosario, Buxton, Kepler, and Grossman with Santana as the fifth OF/25th man. Whatever pans out from the four outfielders is the way it should be with Grossman certainly getting at-bats against every left hander and occasional starts against right handers. If Buxton truly isn't ready the DanSan can be the fourth OF with a starting trio of Grossman, Rosario and Kepler. I am on board with trades of Suzuki and Nuñez with Murphy and Polanco getting recalled. Again, just play it out and whoever is better gets the playing time. Finally, if Plouffe isn't traded, then Park needs to go down to Rochester, making room for Sano.

[mickeymental]

sano needs some time at first base. otherwise he'll be a full-time dh before long.

[ashbury]

Seems to be much more frequent that a guy develops additional pop in his mid-to-late 20s compared to developing patience.

I seem to recall Bill James long ago calling the ability to draw walks an old player's skill. Maybe that's not quite the same as patience, but it's on that spectrum.

 

I don't have any stats to back it up one direction or the other, but I'd be more inclined to wait on a player who showed power in the minors, than to wait on a player who showed patience. All else being equal, which it never is.

[adorduan]

 

Are we really inserting Grossman into future plans here? The guy had a few good weeks, and will come back to earth (arguably, he already has).

If he maintains that 1.000 OPS another month, I'll start getting serious about him. But, I'm not ready to have him block Rosario, Buxton, or even Walker quite yet.

I know they can't....but if they could swap him for a serviceable veteran defense-only catcher for next year (hopefully in a back-up role), I would strongly consider it.

This is one of the front offices major, and one of many, flaws. They keep these scrap heap guys who have a couple of good weeks around way, way, way, way too long, and block prospects. I'm guessing it all comes down to some ego-driven "we coached them up when nobody could" attitude, with a little Pohlad penny pinching sprinkled in.

yeah, a 1.000 OPS is reasonable expectation for him.