Article: Miguel Sano's Defensive Future

[Winston Smith]

Sano is very athletic and no one has forgotten that except maybe Sano at times.

[HitInAPinch]

When it was first brought up, the concept of a 4-man rotation of Mauer, Park, Plouffe and Sano rotating between 1st, 3rd and DH did not mean a merry-go-round type rotation.  If a play is on a hot streak, you don't mess with the streak.

 

Mauer and Park would obviously not be part of a 3rd base rotation.

Sano [1st, 3rd, DH, RF-maybe] and Plouffe [1st, 3rd, DH] have more flexibility.

 

The concept is to free-up positions and more time for guys like Kepler to get more playing time. 

 

I don't know where Sano will play in the short-term, but I'd keep my options open.  Wherever he plays on the field, Sano will not be confused for a ballerina.   In the end, I think he's a DH.

 

BTW:  Love that picture of Sano.  LOOK; up in the sky!  It's a bird!  It's a plane!

LOL

 

 

[Otto von Ballpark]

 

I'm interested to know how they calculate this stat. What gives Buxton just a +1? And how has Grossman already accumulated a -7?

In addition to what the other poster said about DRS being relative to position, also note it is a counting stat, and based on opportunity.  Buxton might be the greatest outfielder who ever lived, but he has only played half of our games, and it's quite possible he hasn't seen a lot of challenging opportunities yet, the kind of challenging plays that are needed to score big positive marks on a defensive metric like this.  Unlike offense, where you are pretty much guaranteed at least 4 fairly standardized plate appearances each game, defensive opportunities are much more variable.  It's also possible that Grossman has seen an excess of challenging plays in his time here, driving his rating down (even if most tend to agree he is probably below average).

 

Neither figure is reliable in this sample size, so at this point we should be regressing based on past numbers, scouting, etc. too.  Buxton is still probably at least a mild plus in CF, and Grossman a slight minus in a corner.

[stringer bell]

My eyeball view of Santana as a defender is that he is not great, but especially in center he's able to outrun many of his poor routes, plus he has a strong arm. I see his DRS is pretty bad, but he is being compared with other center fielders, some of the very cream of the crop. Buxton, undoubtably, is better.

[jimmer]

Since Santana mostly plays CF, he should be compared to CFs.

 

Santana has an okay arm for an OF.  Nothing special.  And, really, his speed being an argument for him is over-stated.  Just like Revere's speed in CF didn't make him a good CF, Santana's speed doesn't make him a good CF.  And on the offensive side of the ball, his speed isn't doing anything for him as far as stealing bases go, and it sure doesn't help when he can't get on base at a decent clip.  When speed is your only tool, that's a problem.

[wsnydes]

 

Since Santana mostly plays CF, he should be compared to CFs.

 

Santana has an okay arm for an OF.  Nothing special.  And, really, his speed being an argument for him is over-stated.  Just like Revere's speed in CF didn't make him a good CF, Santana's speed doesn't make him a good CF.  And on the offensive side of the ball, his speed isn't doing anything for him as far as stealing bases go, and it sure doesn't help when he can't get on base at a decent clip.  When speed is your only tool, that's a problem.

Speed doesn't make you good at any a defensive position.  It helps obviously.  It's certainly a weapon and helps cover up inefficiencies or mistakes.  The best outfielders still make quick and correct reads and take the straightest route to the ball.  

Edited June 21, 2016 by wsnydes

[LaBombo]

So now Sano is going to play the position he's been playing and improving at since his professional debut, instead of the position where the Twins had arguably the only logjam of actual present and future talent in the organization and where Sano looked entirely out of place.

 

And all it took was a discarded journeyman hitting like Frank Thomas for 30 games and the sudden maturation of a 23 year old player who grew up in a country where baseball is only a little more commonly played than it is on the moon.

 

The Twins Way^TM!

 

I can be happy with how the Twins played this one in exactly the same way that I can be happy with my dog for randomly darting across a busy road without getting hit: by focusing only on the result.

Edited June 21, 2016 by LaBombo

[nicksaviking]

I never liked the move to the OF, but frankly, it was mostly because of the air of permanence that seemed to come from Molitor and Ryan when talking about the move. Had there been even a hint that this would be temporary because they still hadn't figured out what to do with Plouffe, there would have been less consternation from the fan base. At least there would have been less from me.

 

Liability or not, knowing that Sano can in a pinch play the outfield along with 3B and 1B is fine by me as any number of in-game moves can often call for unorthodoxed roster management. At the very least, I like having that in the back pocket.

[beckmt]

When Sano comes  back, I expect Park or Buxton to go to AAA.  Actually probably both should go for a month or two and Rosario comes back up.  That clears up the logjams and it will fix itself if Plouffe is traded, just do not think that will happen until the trading deadline.

Expect the young players to struggle for a year or two,  they did in the late 1990's and both the Royals and Boston's young player struggled for a year or two.  Patience everyone.

[wsnydes]

 

When Sano comes  back, I expect Park or Buxton to go to AAA.  Actually probably both should go for a month or two and Rosario comes back up.  That clears up the logjams and it will fix itself if Plouffe is traded, just do not think that will happen until the trading deadline.

Expect the young players to struggle for a year or two,  they did in the late 1990's and both the Royals and Boston's young player struggled for a year or two.  Patience everyone.

Much easier to be preaching patience if they hadn't been already doing that for the last few years.  I was fine with that approach as long as there was a visible plan.  That disintegrated last season and only got worse during the offseason.  At this point, I think the fan base has every right to be irritated.  They can ask for more patience, that's fine.  Just don't expect us to spend our money on this mess until the patience we've already shown is rewarded. 

[LaBombo]

 

Liability or not, knowing that Sano can in a pinch play the outfield along with 3B and 1B is fine by me as any number of in-game moves can often call for unorthodoxed roster management. At the very least, I like having that in the back pocket.

Would it be ok if the Twins keep that Sano in RF thing in a secret compartment in the heel of their organizational shoe instead?

[Cody Christie]

 

I don't think Plouffe has any trade value unless the Twins pick up most of the remaining money on his contract, but hope they can find someone to take him in the next couple of weeks.  

Plouffe is still arbitration eligible so there isn't a contract to be picked up. It would just be his remaining salary for this season and the team trading for him could not offer him arbitration in the off-season if they felt that was the best option.

[Cody Christie]

 

When Sano comes  back, I expect Park or Buxton to go to AAA.  Actually probably both should go for a month or two and Rosario comes back up. 

I would rather see Park go down and collect some at-bats at AAA. Buxton at the big league level has been a roller coaster ride but the Twins need to see what he can do and not keep moving him back and forth. However, I think the Twins will be more willing to send Buxton down again.

[beckmt]

 

Much easier to be preaching patience if they hadn't been already doing that for the last few years.  I was fine with that approach as long as there was a visible plan.  That disintegrated last season and only got worse during the offseason.  At this point, I think the fan base has every right to be irritated.  They can ask for more patience, that's fine.  Just don't expect us to spend our money on this mess until the patience we've already shown is rewarded. 

Last year upped the expectations, probably because of good years from some parts, who played way above their expectations(read Jepson).  Now we have to be in full rebuild mode,  but most of you would just give assets away, rather that get some value.  That is how good clubs remain good and bad clubs remain bad, by picking up useful assets from bad clubs for almost nothing or less than nothing(lottery tickets with bad numbers)

[alarp33]

 

Plouffe is still arbitration eligible so there isn't a contract to be picked up. It would just be his remaining salary for this season and the team trading for him could not offer him arbitration in the off-season if they felt that was the best option.

 

He has over $3.5 million of remaining salary.  I never said anything about next years status

[REPETE]

 

I never liked the move to the OF, but frankly, it was mostly because of the air of permanence that seemed to come from Molitor and Ryan when talking about the move. Had there been even a hint that this would be temporary because they still hadn't figured out what to do with Plouffe, there would have been less consternation from the fan base. At least there would have been less from me.

 

Liability or not, knowing that Sano can in a pinch play the outfield along with 3B and 1B is fine by me as any number of in-game moves can often call for unorthodoxed roster management. At the very least, I like having that in the back pocket.

When they found themselves stuck in this position of having Plouffe & Park, I don't think they had a choice but to declare it permanent.  Otherwise, I'm sure they were concerned Sano would've lolligagged around in the OF or pouted until they moved him back to 3B.    

[wsnydes]

 

Last year upped the expectations, probably because of good years from some parts, who played way above their expectations(read Jepson).  Now we have to be in full rebuild mode,  but most of you would just give assets away, rather that get some value.  That is how good clubs remain good and bad clubs remain bad, by picking up useful assets from bad clubs for almost nothing or less than nothing(lottery tickets with bad numbers)

I can't agree that last year upped expectations.  They overachieved with what they had, added virtually nothing and played it off as "we're going to contend."  It was a sell job that many around here saw right through.  Last season was possibly the worst thing that could have happened.  It made the FO complacent.  This club should have been in full rebuild mode 4 years ago and wasn't.  

Edited June 21, 2016 by wsnydes

[nicksaviking]

 

Would it be ok if the Twins keep that Sano in RF thing in a secret compartment in the heel of their organizational shoe instead?

 

Yes, right next to the Cuddyer to 2B card.

 

Which while frightening, was both useful and highly entertaining.

[jimmer]

_{We had very advantageous sequencing last year.} 

 

_{Nobody on offense really exceeded expectations but the sequencing helped us be 8th in the AL in runs scored even though we were last in OBP, 13th in OPS, 14th in wRC+ and 14th in WAR (position players).  That kind of luck should never be expected to repeat.}

Edited June 21, 2016 by jimmer

[Pardon My Dinger]

 

Liability or not, knowing that Sano can in a pinch play the outfield along with 3B and 1B is fine by me as any number of in-game moves can often call for unorthodoxed roster management. At the very least, I like having that in the back pocket.

Agreed...for the purpose of being repeatedly farted on only. 

[wsnydes]

 

When they found themselves stuck in this position of having Plouffe & Park, I don't think they had a choice but to declare it permanent.  Otherwise, I'm sure they were concerned Sano would've lolligagged around in the OF or pouted until they moved him back to 3B.    

Considering they had in-house options, signing Park shouldn't have been in the picture if they didn't have the Plouffe situation worked out yet.  That reeks of being nearsighted and ignoring the big picture.

 

Also, they simply could have moved Sano to 3B rendering Plouffe a backup.  They had options, they just didn't plan far enough ahead to make the correct ones.

[jimmer]

 

I can't agree that last year upped expectations.  They overachieved with what they had, added virtually nothing and played it off as "we going to contend."  It was a sell job that many around here saw right through.  Last season was possibly the worst thing that could have happened.  It made the FO complacent.  This club should have been in full rebuild mode 4 years ago and wasn't.  

this

[nicksaviking]

 

 

When they found themselves stuck in this position of having Plouffe & Park, I don't think they had a choice but to declare it permanent.  Otherwise, I'm sure they were concerned Sano would've lolligagged around in the OF or pouted until they moved him back to 3B.    

 

I don't know that they were worried about Sano sulking, I don't think expecting and catering to a malcontent attitude (and I am absolutely NOT suggesting that Sano has just that) is a very sound business or baseball strategy.

 

I'd guess if the team did secretly plan on putting Sano back at 3B in due time, the presumptive permanence of the move to the OF was likely in consideration of Plouffe who no doubt would otherwise be holding his breathe and agonizing over a trade every time the manager called him into the office..

[LaBombo]

 

Yes, right next to the Cuddyer to 2B card.

Well played.

 

On a related note, I imagine that Buxtion and his agent are thrilled beyond words that Byron will no longer be patrolling center field next to a guy whose name probably translates in some language to "charging bison".

[beckmt]

 

I can't agree that last year upped expectations.  They overachieved with what they had, added virtually nothing and played it off as "we're going to contend."  It was a sell job that many around here saw right through.  Last season was possibly the worst thing that could have happened.  It made the FO complacent.  This club should have been in full rebuild mode 4 years ago and wasn't.  

There was no farm system to rebuild from 4 years ago.  That was the legacy of the Bill Smith era.  (with Gardy's help).  It has taken this long and the Twins have been forced with half measures to keep the fan base as much as they have.  It will be interesting to see how many players are moved this trading deadline and I (like most) will be disappointed if it is less than 4).

[alarp33]

 

There was no farm system to rebuild from 4 years ago.  That was the legacy of the Bill Smith era.  (with Gardy's help).  It has taken this long and the Twins have been forced with half measures to keep the fan base as much as they have.  It will be interesting to see how many players are moved this trading deadline and I (like most) will be disappointed if it is less than 4).

 

What do you mean by "there was no farm system to rebuild from 4 years ago"? Rebuilding means, rebuilding the farm system.  

 

Terry Ryan may have taken half measures, but I don't think anyone had a gun to his head.   Wouldn't there be more people in the seats now if he had rebuilt this team, rather than lose 100+ games this season?

 

Also, Arcia, Rosario, Sano, Kepler, Gibson (and the list goes on) were all in the system.  

Edited June 21, 2016 by alarp33

[wsnydes]

 

There was no farm system to rebuild from 4 years ago.  That was the legacy of the Bill Smith era.  (with Gardy's help).  It has taken this long and the Twins have been forced with half measures to keep the fan base as much as they have.  It will be interesting to see how many players are moved this trading deadline and I (like most) will be disappointed if it is less than 4).

That's my point, which seems to be your point from earlier.  The rebuild needed to come 4 years earlier.  They could have unloaded veterans to acquire younger talent.  Instead, they continued to sign decline phase vets and augment them with average prospects from a barren farm system.  That simply prolonged the middling of this squad and delayed the inevitable.  If they would have simply blown things up earlier, we may not be at this point now.  They've never actually started a rebuild.  They're still not in the midst of a rebuild, TR is trying to contend.  His moves and lack thereof show it.  His in-season moves and roster management still show it.  The managers distribution of playing time shows it.  The words that come out of their mouths show it.  None of the guys in charge understand where they sit.  None of them appear committed to right the ship.  Back to back 90+ loss seasons doesn't trigger a rebuild and five of six seasons 90+ losses doesn't, how am I as a paying fan supposed to believe that a 100+ loss season will be any different?  The FO certainly doesn't give me any hope that such a thing is understood by them.  

Edited June 21, 2016 by wsnydes

[jimmer]

 

What do you mean by "there was no farm system to rebuild from 4 years ago"? Rebuilding means, rebuilding the farm system.  

 

Terry Ryan may have taken half measures, but I don't think anyone had a gun to his head.   Wouldn't there be more people in the seats now if he had rebuilt this team, rather than lose 100+ games this season?

 

Also, Arcia, Rosario, Sano, Kepler, Gibson (and the list goes on) were all in the system.  

Yes, a lot of the guys we are counting on, and are well thought of, came onto the team under Smith. Trying to remember all the prospects Smith traded away.  There was Ramos and, um.  Seriously, can't remember the rest.  I'm sure they're all all stars by now.

 

I guess it's just easier to blame Ryan's hand picked successor for everything.

Edited June 21, 2016 by jimmer

[beckmt]

 

What do you mean by "there was no farm system to rebuild from 4 years ago"? Rebuilding means, rebuilding the farm system.  

 

Terry Ryan may have taken half measures, but I don't think anyone had a gun to his head.   Wouldn't there be more people in the seats now if he had rebuilt this team, rather than lose 100+ games this season?

 

Also, Arcia, Rosario, Sano, Kepler, Gibson (and the list goes on) were all in the system.  

At that time they were a long ways away, and no pitching help in sight.  Gibson would be a fourth or fifth starter on most good clubs unless you were in the Royal mode of cheap starters and a lights out bullpen.

To be competitive the Twins would have to have bought 3 front line starters.  Bill Smith lost his job over recommending the Twins up payroll into the $130 million range.  Ryan did not have that budget.   The difference was buying midrange starters, rather than ace or aces.  Twins will have to develop those, and they may be coming, but results are still out and it may be two years before we know how successful this was.

[wsnydes]

 

What do you mean by "there was no farm system to rebuild from 4 years ago"? Rebuilding means, rebuilding the farm system.  

 

Terry Ryan may have taken half measures, but I don't think anyone had a gun to his head.   Wouldn't there be more people in the seats now if he had rebuilt this team, rather than lose 100+ games this season?

 

Also, Arcia, Rosario, Sano, Kepler, Gibson (and the list goes on) were all in the system.  

This.  Even if they unloaded some of the younger minor league talent to acquire more younger talent to fill out a lagging farm system, that is still a rebuild.  It may take longer, but it's at least a start.