Article: Oswaldo Arcia And The Limits Of Patience

[Mike Sixel]

To be clear, I don't think there is room for him on this roster, hence my other thread......but the lack of room for a young player (and this team is NOT young....) on a terrible team....that's on the GM.

 

Keeping him on the roster this long, if they didn't want him on the roster, that's on the GM. Now, finally deciding to move on from a guy you don't want (see last year's insistence on keeping a guy around on a contending team, only to cut him this year), well, that's progress at least.

[Vanimal46]

Agreed. The response there is that they have better all around options in the INF, but had none in the OF. Arcia can't even play a corner spot, let alone CF.

 

Again, I'm simply stating what I believe to be the other side of this argument. It is very thin, I agree. But it's the only rational reason I can see as a benefit of this move.

I get where you're coming from. It's a paper thin rationale, but that's probably what the Twins are thinking.

 

We can chalk it up to having no backup plan in CF, and them being fascinated by a player who's been nothing but terrible offensively the last 2 years.

[TheLeviathan]

We burned Arcia's options and only once did the kid get 400 PAs and even then it was barely 400.

 

I get really annoyed with the mentality that players have to "force" or "earn" their way.  You know how that has to happen?  With actual, consistent playing time.  That means through struggles as well, especially when you aren't competing.  

 

In his first year up (2013) he was getting less PAs than Clete Thomas from June-August.  Clete Thomas.

 

In 2014 guys like Kubel, Fuld, and Parmelee were stealing at-bats.

 

In 2016 he's been relegated behind Danny Santana.

 

If that's what the Twins or anyone else think is the right way to "give someone a chance" - I want those people nowhere near the decision making process.

Edited June 20, 2016 by TheLeviathan

[wsnydes]

 

I get where you're coming from. It's a paper thin rationale, but that's probably what the Twins are thinking.

We can chalk it up to having no backup plan in CF, and them being fascinated by a player who's been nothing but terrible offensively the last 2 years.

Agreed completely.  At this point, there is no reason to consider using a roster spot on a defensive specialist (using it sarcastically).  While I'm not nearly as bent out of shape about Arcia's DFA, I am miffed by the timing and how it went down.  

[wsnydes]

 

We burned Arcia's options and only once did the kid get 400 PAs and even then it was barely 400.

 

I get really annoyed with the mentality that players have to "force" or "earn" their way.  You know how that has to happen?  With actual, consistent playing time.  That means through struggles as well, especially when you aren't competing.  

 

In his first year up (2013) he was getting less PAs than Clete Thomas from June-August.  Clete Thomas.

 

In 2014 guys like Kubel, Fuld, and Parmelee were stealing at-bats.

 

In 2016 he's been relegated behind Danny Santana.

 

If that's what the Twins or anyone else think is the right way to "give someone a chance" - I want those people nowhere near the decision making process.

And they're doing virtually the same thing with Polanco.  I'm not sure if adding him to the active roster to provide depth and not playing him is better or worse than sitting behind that list of crap veterans.  It's not good or smart, that is for sure.

[Mike Sixel]

It's very important Danny Santana be up here and playing, and Polanco be in AAA during his last option year, on  a team that is neither young, nor good.....

[jimmer]

My favorite part is when it's pointed out that even if Arcia goes somewhere, figures it out, and does well, it still won't make the decision the wrong one.  Like the Hughes and Suzuki extensions were the right moves at the time, and even though they didn't work out (predictable as could be), neither of those moves showed the FO to be wrong either.  This team has been very bad for a long time, both in performance and construction, yet it always amazes me how so many of their moves are the right ones.  How can a team that makes so many correct moves be bad for so long?  Worst team in baseball right now, in case anyone forgot.

Edited June 20, 2016 by jimmer

[tobi0040]

The reality is we could make individual cases to cut about half of our players. In a silo, you can make a case to cut Arcia. Limited defensively, high k rate, etc.. However, comparing players with gigantic warts against one another is the more appropriate analysis.

 

Across the last two seasons, Danny Santana has a wRc of 48. Among players with 400 AB he is second worst in the major leagues. His OPS is .559. Arcia’s wRc is 83 and 78, and his OPS is .717 and .658.

 

And look at our roster and the win column. We basically have two CF’s in Buxton and Kepler and at some point a third, Rosario will be back. And Escobar and Nunez can play SS and Beresford who is probably better than Santana anyway is a phone call away. Given all of the flexibility on our roster, the 4th OF role should have been a no brainer for a platoon bat and a guy who has a shot at hitting a HR in the bottom of the 9th. No player we have is better suited for that than Arcia.

 

Defensive flexibility has always been over emphasized by this franchise. A team losing 70% of their players should not be overly worried about who their 3rd SS is on a daily basis.

[wsnydes]

 

It's very important Danny Santana be up here and playing, and Polanco be in AAA during his last option year, on  a team that is neither young, nor good.....

I don't care where Polanco is playing as long as he's playing every day.

[HitInAPinch]

 

I'm no Santana fan, but he serves a function on the roster. Arcia really didn't anymore. As I said, you can quibble with the timing but this move was imminent one way or another, with Sano's return and Rosario's recall closing in.

I'm actually a fan of Danny Santana.  I think the real problem with him is 2 fold:

1. The Twins are playing him far too much and wearing him out
2. He's being played too much because Buxton still hasn't shown himself to be a full-time player.  Not sure what the Twins have as an alternate CF.

 

[jimmer]

I think the biggest problem with Santana is he can't field any position well, nor can he hit.  I have faith that Arcia, if given he chance somewhere, can at least DH against righties and be productive.

 

A team's backup CF shouldn't be an IF who can't hold down an IF job.

Edited June 20, 2016 by jimmer

[wsnydes]

 

 

I'm actually a fan of Danny Santana.  I think the real problem with him is 2 fold:

1. The Twins are playing him far too much and wearing him out
2. He's being played too much because Buxton still hasn't shown himself to be a full-time player.  Not sure what the Twins have as an alternate CF.

 

Kepler can play some CF.

[tobi0040]

I'm actually a fan of Danny Santana.  I think the real problem with him is 2 fold:

• The Twins are playing him far too much and wearing him out
• He's being played too much because Buxton still hasn't shown himself to be a full-time player.  Not sure what the Twins have as an alternate CF.

A professional athlete is getting worn out playing baseball about half the time over two years?

[HitInAPinch]

 

Poor comparison to Ortiz because Ortiz was a very good hitter with the Twins.     Injuries and a determination that they would rather have Dougie M's defense at 1st   than Ortiz and his bat was questionable at the time but it was mostly the injuries.    Ortiz had an .809 OPS with the Twins.    Arcia's best year two years ago was .752.  Big difference.

Yeah, Ortiz was a good hitter with the Twins.  The argument against Ortiz seemed to come from Tom Kelly, who wanted Ortiz to hit " The Twins Way".  i.e. slap the ball to the opposite field, instead of swinging for the fences.  Win some, lose some...

[alarp33]

For everyone saying Santana serves a purpose.  He's been the worst player in all of baseball since the start of 2015.  What purpose is he serving?

[HitInAPinch]

 

A professional athlete is getting worn out playing baseball about half the time over two years?

Quite a bit of difference training to be a SS as opposed to covering a wide range in CF.  

[wsnydes]

 

 

I'm actually a fan of Danny Santana.  I think the real problem with him is 2 fold:

1. The Twins are playing him far too much and wearing him out
2. He's being played too much because Buxton still hasn't shown himself to be a full-time player.  Not sure what the Twins have as an alternate CF.

 

I agree, he is playing far too much.  But it's not because he's wearing out.

[Nick Nelson]

 

I'd argue that the learning part should be in the minors, but yeah. In any event, the epitome of this is Rosario, who, somehow, is apparently is 'more deserving' than Arcia, even though he takes horrendous at bats, can't get on base, and makes bonehead decision after bonehead decision.. 

All of those things are true of Arcia, as well. Rosario at least can run and play defense, and has hit at some point in the last 2 years. Yet this concept is inexplicable to you?

[alarp33]

 

Quite a bit of difference training to be a SS as opposed to covering a wide range in CF.  

 

65 of his 68 starts in 2015 were at SS.  Was he worn out when he hit .215/.241/.291 last year?

[alarp33]

 

All of those things are true of Arcia, as well. Rosario at least can run and play defense, and has hit at some point in the last 2 years. Yet this concept is inexplicable to you?

 

When did Rosario hit?  His .289 OBP in 2015 was him "hitting"?

[tobi0040]

Quite a bit of difference training to be a SS as opposed to covering a wide range in CF.

So a professional athlete who is about 135 pounds is wearing down because he has to sprint about 50 yards 3-5 times a game, because he trained for shorter runs?

[jimmer]

 

When did Rosario hit?  His .289 OBP in 2015 was him "hitting"?

because of the unsustainable amount of triples making his OPS look decent.

Edited June 20, 2016 by jimmer

[blindeke]

Do the Twins have a problem working with Latino players? Or am I imagining things that aren't there?

[HitInAPinch]

 

65 of his 68 starts in 2015 were at SS.  Was he worn out when he hit .215/.241/.291 last year?

Santana was a terrible SS: great arm, terrible footwork.  One thing leads to another.   Pretty good reason why he's almost exclusively and OF now. 

[HitInAPinch]

 

So a professional athlete who is about 135 pounds is wearing down because he has to sprint about 50 yards 3-5 times a game, because he trained for shorter runs?

Umm, Arcia in LF and Sano in RF?

[tobi0040]

All of those things are true of Arcia, as well. Rosario at least can run and play defense, and has hit at some point in the last 2 years. Yet this concept is inexplicable to you?

What level of offensive futility are we willing to accept for defensive flexibility and how does that compare to defensive futility?

 

We are giving up 150 basis points in OPS between Arcia and Santana, about double the wRc. And obviously upside. Seems to me Santana is worse with the bat than Arcia is with the glove. And Santana is not a gold glover. In fact, Santana has negative defensive value if you look at WAR.

Edited June 20, 2016 by tobi0040

[Everyday Eddy]

If Danny Santana is worn down from his moderate use in CF,   then that just magnifies even more why he shouldn't be a major leaguer.    That's an extremely weak excuse for poor hitting from an athletic guy in his mid 20s

[tobi0040]

Umm, Arcia in LF and Sano in RF?

The FO can't make one decision OK because of another terrible decision they made.

[alarp33]

 

Santana was a terrible SS: great arm, terrible footwork.  One thing leads to another.   Pretty good reason why he's almost exclusively and OF now. 

 

So he couldn't hit at SS, because he was terrible there.  He's equally terrible as a CFer, and equally cannot hit, but this time because he's too tired? Got it.  So why is he in the Major Leagues?

[jorgenswest]

Yeah, Ortiz was a good hitter with the Twins.  The argument against Ortiz seemed to come from Tom Kelly, who wanted Ortiz to hit " The Twins Way".  i.e. slap the ball to the opposite field, instead of swinging for the fences.  Win some, lose some...

Through age 25, Ortiz and Arcia had very similar offense relative to the league with an OPS+ of 103 and 101 respectively. Through age 24, Arcia had the edge. A difference is the opportunity Ortiz was given in his age 25 season by Kelly.