Article: Twins Minor League Report (6/6) - Berrios Shines, Michael Walks-off

[nicksaviking]

 

I want to see the science behind that...  although I think I get your point if you're just being figurative.  I saw Tonkin go up and down and be average to horrible out of the pen.  Chargois seems more legit and has risen quickly.  Some posters pound the organization for using full seasons of AA and brief stints in AAA before throwing guys into the deep end of the pool.  So if we accelerated him through AA and want him to get a good and established grip on AAA, what is the problem?  What is the rush?  If your premise regarding finite innings is true, it hurts no one to have him in AAA all season.

 

I guess I don't understand the last sentence. Shouldn't the goal to use as many workable innings at the majors instead of the minors?

 

Pitchers seem to leave the game due to physical deterioration much quicker than batters. Also, pitchers are the causation to the batters reaction, it is the batter that needs to adjust to the pitcher, not the other way around. Because of those two things, it is the pitchers that I'd call up early and let the batters season in the minors if needed. I understand this is the opposite approach the Twins appear to take.

 

On a more fundamental note, relief pitchers who throw 100 MPH don't tend to last long. Even if he is lights out for a few years, there's a very good chance he'll never get a shot at a true career-making free agent contract. Let him get his service time and give him a better chance of making his money.

 

Also, it's a lost season, he has options and he's already on the 40-man, what's the harm?

[Taildragger8791]

Barring a setback, I'm expecting Chargois will be up within a month or so which would still give him 2-3 months to adjust at the MLB level in preparation for next year. That would still be an impressively quick rise for a guy who has only 86 innings over 1.5 seasons played in the minors (not counting missing 2 full seasons due to Tommy John surgery). He hasn't been held back at all.
 
The catch-22 we seem to keep running into here is that you can't promote a guy who hasn't demonstrated sustained success at his current level, but as soon as someone does demonstrate that sustained success there are screams to promote and quit holding him back. Yes, there are some guys who have legitimate gripes about lingering at a level, and Chargois is not one of them (yet).

 

The Twins have been moving top performers faster over the last few years and if anything they have moved some guys too fast through the upper levels. Though I do wish they'd flip flop on the handling of pitchers (too slow at times) and hitters (too fast at times) based on the limited shelf life of many pitchers and fewer adjustments needed.

[Seth Stohs]

 

We all know the WHEN.
What day is the estimated super 2 cut off this year? He'll be up the next day.

 

It's usually around June 3rd or something... It may have bumped into May. Don't really know officially until after the season is complete. 

[alarp33]

 

Barring a setback, I'm expecting Chargois will be up within a month or so which would still give him 2-3 months to adjust at the MLB level in preparation for next year. That would still be an impressively quick rise for a guy who has only 86 innings over 1.5 seasons played in the minors (not counting missing 2 full seasons due to Tommy John surgery). He hasn't been held back at all.
 
The catch-22 we seem to keep running into here is that you can't promote a guy who hasn't demonstrated sustained success at his current level, but as soon as someone does demonstrate that sustained success there are screams to promote and quit holding him back. Yes, there are some guys who have legitimate gripes about lingering at a level, and Chargois is not one of them (yet).

 

The Twins have been moving top performers faster over the last few years and if anything they have moved some guys too fast through the upper levels. Though I do wish they'd flip flop on the handling of pitchers (too slow at times) and hitters (too fast at times) based on the limited shelf life of many pitchers and fewer adjustments needed.

 

He played in college, and is a reliever who is 25.5 years old.  He is the exact type of player who can and should move quickly through the ranks.  

 

Who says you can't promote a guy who hasn't demonstrated sustained success at his current level?  Were the Royals not aware of that rule when they used Brandon Finnegan down the stretch and in the post season the same year they drafted him?  

 

Relief Pitchers are far different than any hitters the Twins have promoted too fast, which was the other posters point that you didn't touch on

[diehardtwinsfan]

 

It's usually around June 3rd or something... It may have bumped into May. Don't really know officially until after the season is complete. 

 

It's based on a the top 20% (I think it's 20) of players.  You push the date back based on the number of players affected.  It's why it always changes.

[Otto von Ballpark]

It's usually around June 3rd or something... It may have bumped into May. Don't really know officially until after the season is complete.

Actually you don't really know until a couple years later when they become arb eligible (or not).

 

But teams seem to be able to predict this quite well, I don't think there have been too many surprises either way.

Edited June 7, 2016 by spycake

[Otto von Ballpark]

It's based on a the top 20% (I think it's 20) of players. You push the date back based on the number of players affected. It's why it always changes.

22%. It was bumped up from 17% a few years ago.

[mlhouse]

 

I want to see the science behind that...  although I think I get your point if you're just being figurative.  I saw Tonkin go up and down and be average to horrible out of the pen.  Chargois seems more legit and has risen quickly.  Some posters pound the organization for using full seasons of AA and brief stints in AAA before throwing guys into the deep end of the pool.  So if we accelerated him through AA and want him to get a good and established grip on AAA, what is the problem?  What is the rush?  If your premise regarding finite innings is true, it hurts no one to have him in AAA all season.  I don't think I'd hastily DFA anyone just to bring him up.  Someone will eventually be hurt or traded, and he'll be in line for the call, but to me, I'm not reorganizing my pen and 25 man for Chargois just yet.  There's just no need. 

 

The management of Chargois to me exemplifies the ineptness of the Twins management.  They don't have a closer.  THey have a prospect at AAA that most minor league hitters cannot hit.  They are on a 115 loss pace.  

 

What's the rush?  FIrst, it isn't like Chargois is a young kid by MLB rookie standards.  Because of injuries his career has really been short circuited (Josh Bard is another example).  Chargois is 25 years old.  Are they going to short step him every year, bounce him around a while, and finally give him an opportunity when he is 30?

 

Second, when you are rebuilding not every prospect you bring up is going to pan out.  It takes some time to evaluate them fully under major league conditions.  We don't really need much more proof that JT Chargois can get minor league hitters out and throw really hard.  What we do need to know is if his stuff translates to MLB and if he can be a closer at this level.  THe only way to find that out is to get him up to the big leagues and see.  Having him prove he can strike minor league hitters more just postpones any chance that we can put a competitive team together.

 

Third,  all of the alternatives suck.  It would be different if Perkins was healthy or Jepsen was throwing like he did last season.  Or if there were several other closer candidates waiting in the wings throwing in short relief or in the minors.  But there isn't. ALl of teh veterans on the staff are not throwing well and Chargois is the obvious next candidate.

 

The lineup for the Twins should be Sano at 3B (when healthy, Plouffe traded a long time ago), Escobar/Nunez, Polanco playing utility2B (Dozier traded), Mauer because we cant dump his contract, Garver at C with Turner backing him up,  Kepler, Buxton, and Grossman in the OF, with Rosario as the 4th.  Park the DH.

 

The starters should be  Duffy, Berrio, Jay, Gibson, and Dean/Rogers.  Closer:  Chargois.  Bullpen:  TOnkin, Dean/Rogers, etc.

 

What is the problem with this?  We might lose 100 games???  Lets get this over with.  Evaluate the kids.  Develop them at the major league level.  Find the players who work and dump the players that do not.  

 

If we keep going at this half way crap we are going to be terrible for an even longer time.

[Jham]

I guess I don't understand the last sentence. Shouldn't the goal to use as many workable innings at the majors instead of the minors?

 

Pitchers seem to leave the game due to physical deterioration much quicker than batters. Also, pitchers are the causation to the batters reaction, it is the batter that needs to adjust to the pitcher, not the other way around. Because of those two things, it is the pitchers that I'd call up early and let the batters season in the minors if needed. I understand this is the opposite approach the Twins appear to take.

 

On a more fundamental note, relief pitchers who throw 100 MPH don't tend to last long. Even if he is lights out for a few years, there's a very good chance he'll never get a shot at a true career-making free agent contract. Let him get his service time and give him a better chance of making his money.

 

Also, it's a lost season, he has options and he's already on the 40-man, what's the harm?

Yeah, I think we're making the same point. There's no harm real harm in bringing him up, and no real harm in leaving him down. A tad more seasoning vs a dfa of a player we probably won't miss. Maybe I'm overly gun shy about calling players up on limited aaa success. I'm momentarily satiated with watching the guys who put up good numbers in aaa try to find their way through the mlb. I'm ok with being patient take than risk another aaa stage coach turning into an mlb pumpkin. Been that sort of season. Edited June 7, 2016 by Jham

[DocBauer]

I also want Chargois up, believe he's an important part of 2017 and beyond, and believe he will be up no later than July 1st. Probably sooner.

 

And I am not being snarky, nor am I trolling, but who would you propose is removed to make room at this time for him?

 

Barring a trip to the DL, we appear to be stuck with Hughex, who will move to the bullpen when Gibson comes back. Pressly and Tonkin are FINALLY getting extended opportunities and performing pretty well, Pressly after a rough start and some adjustments. You don't want send down Rogers, and Abad has been excellent. (Personally, I wouldn't break the bank or go long term, but I think Abad may have more value being kept).

 

Boshers? He's a fun story, but also pitched well at Rochester, and has been OK in limited ML time. Do we just release Jepsen at this point? Kintzler isn't part of the future, but he's been pitching decently. Is he the best candidate?

 

Really, what is the right move here?

[Otto von Ballpark]

 

And I am not being snarky, nor am I trolling, but who would you propose is removed to make room at this time for him?

Pat Dean, with Trevor May sliding into the rotation.

[DocBauer]

I could get behind this one 100%

 

[Darius]

As much as some are are grasping....there is no reason why Chagrois shouldn't be getting ML innings right now.

 

The current bullpen is a disaster. Chagrois is the most talented bullpen arm suitable to bring up at this point. As was said above, why not get his first few innings out of the way now, and prime him to close or set-up next year, if he's got the arm talent as advertised?

 

Do people think there is really alternate universes where 1) Chagrois gets called up today, and gets high leverage innings, and crashes and burns out of the league vs. 2) He gets called up in September, and gets high leverage innings, and turns into Rivera?

 

If the guy is going to be a good major league player, he's eventually going to be one, regardless of 20 (or whatever) additional innings in AAA. I don't know at what point this whole thing got blown out of proportion (needing X minor league time to succeed, and if not you'll fail). It's utterly preposterous.

[John Kelsey]

#FreeChargois