Article: Urgency To Trade Plouffe Growing

[LaBombo]

 

We will never have all the access they do or the resources. We do know that 28 teams have more wins than us since 2011. By year end the Astros may put us dead last.

 

That's primarily my standard as well.  The Twins' farm system was really the only cause for optimism in 2012-14,  and so far this year it's produced mostly just cringes and mutterings about 'just wait 'til 2017'.

[Mike Sixel]

There are two potential problems with that sort of sentiment.

 

The first is that it appears to set the bar for Twins front office management at the somewhat disappointingly low level of 'No dumber than the average fan'.

 

The second is that in a case of the fan base being generally right when the FO is wrong, the flip side of that sentiment often turns into some version of 'We don't have access to all the information the front office does, so we're not qualified to second-guess'.

 

In a way, though, guess it balances out. The first issue more or less dooms the Twins to futility, and the second part sort of disqualifies us from having an opinion about that doom in the first place.

Where is the love button?

[wsnydes]

 

Where is the love button?

I thought this was a SFW forum.

[CampQ]

Valencia has slugged over .500 every year since leaving the Twins, with the exception of his age 29 season split between franchises.

 

He's nothing like a David Ortiz - level gaffe, but he's also not a free pass for the Twins' Way either. They let him go for essentially nothing while they were among the worst teams in baseball.

 

And just to be clear, I'm infinitely more concerned about the Twins not having a system in place to extract value from a Danny Valencia during a 90 loss season than I am about the Twins not having Danny Valencia.

Actially in '12 he slugged .299 and in '14 he slugged .371. '13 and '15 were good seasons.

 

I do agree with your larger point

[alarp33]

 

Actially in '12 he slugged .299 and in '14 he slugged .371. '13 and '15 were good seasons.

I do agree with your larger point

 

Valencia has slugged over .500 every year since leaving the Twins, with the exception of his age 29 season split between franchises.

 

He played with the Twins in 2012, and 2014 was the exception he made.  

[CampQ]

Valencia has slugged over .500 every year since leaving the Twins, with the exception of his age 29 season split between franchises.

 

He played with the Twins in 2012, and 2014 was the exception he made.

Ah, noted. Thank you

[Otto von Ballpark]

 

Thought it might be worth pointing out that a week ago MLB Trade Rumors published a list of 10 current trade candidates and had Plouffe at #8 (as well as Abad at #10.)

 

This opinion doesn't represent "the industry," and doesn't necessarily mean that the Twins would get a lot for him, but it does seem that people outside the fan/homer sphere think there's some trade value there.

That list isn't all about trade "value" -- it's also about a likelihood to deal.  The Twins should undeniably be a seller, and Plouffe could be in line for a nontender this winter or an unpalatable arbitration award.  Those are probably the bigger factors in his ranking than his actual trade value.

[mnfireman]

"A day late and a dollar short".....sums up the Twins dealings (or lack thereof) with Plouffe and Dozier. Except it is a year late, well 56 games late and million$ short. The only way to get any return is to package them, either individually or together, with Nolasco, Hughes and Jepson, and maybe even Ervin Santana (though I think he is a better rebound candidate than the other 5).Then bring on the kiddie parade and let them take their lumps (can't play too much worse than .286 baseball with the youngster's and I won't get so p****d off about veteran's giving the games away). 

[alarp33]

 

. The only way to get any return is to package them, either individually or together, with Nolasco, Hughes and Jepson, and maybe even Ervin Santana (though I think he is a better rebound candidate than the other 5).

 

Packaging under-performing vets with Bad pitchers making way too much money does not increase trade value. It makes those under-performing vets untradeable.  

[LaBombo]

 

The Twins were in good company in cutting Valencia.  Boston, Baltimore, Kansas City and Toronto always dropped him. 

The Blue Jays waived him during a 93 win division championship season,  having resigned themselves to AL MVP Josh Donaldson as their 3B.   No other team has waived Valencia or let him walk.  

 

With the exception of his four week August stay at Boston's Tudor Wharf Residence Inn,  all of Valencia's production after the Twins has been for winners.   The Twins were the only other loser to move him,  and did so in the middle of 4 consecutive 90+ loss stinkbombs.

 

Once again,   and I can't emphasize this enough,   Danny Valencia isn't the problem.    He's a minor symptom of the problem,   which is that over the past 5 years the Twins have often come perilously close to not being able to differentiate between a ballplayer and a ficus plant.

Edited June 6, 2016 by LaBombo

[CampQ]

To be fair I don't know what a ficus plant looks like

[Circus Boy]

 

Trade him already. 

 

Somehow the Twins value their assets so far above the market assessment.  So far that they are the worst team in the league.

 

Think about it... the Twins can't trade their young talent because they are on the verge of being so good.  And, they can't trade their veterans because they are the glue that holds the team together and won't get fair market value.

 

Meanwhile, the Twins and their players, young or old, are just plain lousy.

 

Hello?  No one values the Twins players because they are on a lousy team and underperform and aren't worth anything -- in Plouffe's case, $7M, is a lot of clams.

 

Trade him for a bag of fries.  Anything!

 

At least a large size, though.

[Vanimal46]

 

At least a large size, though.

And a twist cone. Maybe the best 89 cents you can spend at McDonald's...

[Pardon My Dinger]

What the hell is a bag of fries?

[Pardon My Dinger]

Don't get me wrong--whatever it is, I'm sure i'd rather have it than Plouffe. 

[Vanimal46]

 

What the hell is a bag of fries?

You've never been to 5 Guys? They will show you what a bag of fries is... 

[DocBauer]

One more cliche to add to the mix..."addition by subtraction". At this point doubling down on a bad decision in an attempt to get "perceived value" for Plouffe is hubris. Ditch him already. On another note, I am curious and mildly hopeful that R. Grossman turns into a serviceable starter. He has an excellent pedigree in that he was once viewed as a good prospect and may be a late bloomer. It has been awhile since Shane Mack and we are due for a success story of such ilk. (Yes, I know Mack was a rule 5). I realize the probable outcome for Grossman is likely something much less.

I find Grossman to be an interesting, somewhat undervalued story at this point. And I wrote about him a few weeks ago in another thread. I didn't do extensive research on him so I'm not sure how high he has ever ranked as a prospect. But he is a switch hitter with a decent frame. He is no big power threat or speed demon, but he has shown pop and decent power at times, and had double digit SB most years. His career milb triple slash is: .271/ .379/ .392. Nothing spectacular, but solid.

 

Thus far, 16 games I believe, still a SSS, but his defense has looked solid and he hasn't flailed away or looked over matched at the plate. While I'm sure his current production is in no way sustainable, 12 BB against 12 SO is encouraging.

 

I'm not saying we got a star or steal here, but he's young enough with enough ability that we may have uncovered a useful player off the bench, or maybe, who knows, a solid, all around functional 3rd OF. Bit of a stretch maybe, but there might be something to work with here.

[Mr. Brooks]

The reason I'd want to trade Park is not because I don't like him, but because I don't think we'll be ready to compete during his productive years.

 

I know most of the board sees this year as a painful speed bump that we'll be past soon, but I just don't agree.

 

I think this team is still 3+ years away from even considering contention.

 

We only have 1 starting pitcher above A ball ( aside from maybe Kohl Stewart and his 1 AA start) that has a chance to be anything better than league average, and he's scuffling with control at AAA right now.

 

That's great that we have Buxton and Sano and Kepler and Polanco, but until Jay and Gonsalves and Stewart get closer to the big leagues our pitching staff has no chance to compete in this league, none.

[Thrylos]

 

Thought it might be worth pointing out that a week ago MLB Trade Rumors published a list of 10 current trade candidates and had Plouffe at #8 (as well as Abad at #10.)

 

This opinion doesn't represent "the industry," and doesn't necessarily mean that the Twins would get a lot for him, but it does seem that people outside the fan/homer sphere think there's some trade value there.

 

That opinion was that of Jeff Todd who wrote that stuff.  One guy's opinion.

[Thrylos]

 

To be fair I don't know what a ficus plant looks like

 

Here (bet has better range than Brian Buscher)

 

http://www.ikea.com/gb/en/images/products/ficus-nitida-potted-plant__0138745_PE298525_S4.JPG

[LaBombo]

 

To be fair I don't know what a ficus plant looks like

 

The easy tell is that the ficus is much less likely to bunt without a sign.

[Platoon]

At least a large size, though.

I prefer macdonalds thank you. I forgot 5 guys. Best ever though was a cafe in a motel in Wadena. Sorry, no drive through! Edited June 7, 2016 by Platoon

[Kwak]

First, with both Escobar and Sano on the DL makes dumpind Plouffe for "fries" stupid--somebody actually useful would be a different story. Second, there is no reason to rush either Escobar or Sano back to the lineup. The Twins would be better off  losing as often as possible and keeping those two in hot tubs so that they are completely healed. Third, Plouffe can be traded as soon as a replacement IF is found (signed) to takeover--and he should net far more than what the Twins received (zip) from eliminating Valencia back in the day. It is becoming apparent that Sano doesn't belong in the field--anywhere. Evidence: Frank Thomas, Ortiz, Fielder. Sano has displayed an uncanny ability to pull a hamstring while on the bases, there is no need to give him further opportunities. Sano will always be subpar in the field, simply keep him at DH and put an end to experimenting. Last, consider trading Sano. Face it, the Twins needs are HUGE--starting pitching, 3B, OF, bullpen. A trade might fetch solutions to many problems--and for a guy who is a defensive liability. It is also likely Sano is never signed by the Twins to the monster contract anyway. It's likely better to do it now before the rest of baseball decides the Twins will lose him anyway.

[tobi0040]

First, with both Escobar and Sano on the DL makes dumpind Plouffe for "fries" stupid--somebody actually useful would be a different story. Second, there is no reason to rush either Escobar or Sano back to the lineup. The Twins would be better off losing as often as possible and keeping those two in hot tubs so that they are completely healed. Third, Plouffe can be traded as soon as a replacement IF is found (signed) to takeover--and he should net far more than what the Twins received (zip) from eliminating Valencia back in the day. It is becoming apparent that Sano doesn't belong in the field--anywhere. Evidence: Frank Thomas, Ortiz, Fielder. Sano has displayed an uncanny ability to pull a hamstring while on the bases, there is no need to give him further opportunities. Sano will always be subpar in the field, simply keep him at DH and put an end to experimenting. Last, consider trading Sano. Face it, the Twins needs are HUGE--starting pitching, 3B, OF, bullpen. A trade might fetch solutions to many problems--and for a guy who is a defensive liability. It is also likely Sano is never signed by the Twins to the monster contract anyway. It's likely better to do it now before the rest of baseball decides the Twins will lose him anyway.

If Sano does not sign a longer deal in the next 12 months, I think you have to strongly consider it. It is the only way to get a coup type return. Billy Bean figured this out years ago.

 

The longer you wait, the more money he has in his pocket and less time before the big contract

[DocBauer]

I know it's become an old arguement, but if we fast forward a bit and DO move Plouffe to the Mets, the Royals, whoever, and Sano is back at 3rd where he belongs, I'd still like to audition Mauer and/or Park in the OF somewhere.

 

And I'm not talking about repeating the same issue as playing Sano out of place. I'm just talking about future roster construction and versatiliy.

 

Park shows some real potential as a hitter, while battling to learn the ML game. Not a surprise there. But he's showing potential, and has less than a half season thus far. (To those who already are sour on him or think he should be moved) And I find him to be a quality defensive 1B. Mauer seemingly HAS rebounded from the past two years. And he's not going anywhere.

 

But while Buxton and Kepler should be counted on for 2/3 of the OF, that leaves one spot open. Rosario could still claim that 3rd spot. Grossman could be a nice role player. We still don't know for sure what we have in Arcia and he needs to play. There is hope for Walker, but he's got a ways to go yet. Palka could be a player. Maybe a defensive speedster like Granite will be the final piece.

 

But for roster and lineup construction...and the possibility of Walker or Vargas providing a potential big bat as a DH, why not just see if Mauer/Park could provide even more roster flexability?

[CampQ]

The easy tell is that the ficus is much less likely to bunt without a sign.

Unless it is listing heavily towards home plate. Then it always bunts without a sign.

 

Your ficus plant reminded me of a surely spurious story about Plato. For the sake of argument with some precocious Athenian youths Plato defined man as a featherless biped. A few days later Diogenes the Cynic walked through the Agora holding a plucked chicken.

[SwainZag]

 

First, with both Escobar and Sano on the DL makes dumpind Plouffe for "fries" stupid--somebody actually useful would be a different story. Second, there is no reason to rush either Escobar or Sano back to the lineup. The Twins would be better off  losing as often as possible and keeping those two in hot tubs so that they are completely healed. Third, Plouffe can be traded as soon as a replacement IF is found (signed) to takeover--and he should net far more than what the Twins received (zip) from eliminating Valencia back in the day. It is becoming apparent that Sano doesn't belong in the field--anywhere. Evidence: Frank Thomas, Ortiz, Fielder. Sano has displayed an uncanny ability to pull a hamstring while on the bases, there is no need to give him further opportunities. Sano will always be subpar in the field, simply keep him at DH and put an end to experimenting. Last, consider trading Sano. Face it, the Twins needs are HUGE--starting pitching, 3B, OF, bullpen. A trade might fetch solutions to many problems--and for a guy who is a defensive liability. It is also likely Sano is never signed by the Twins to the monster contract anyway. It's likely better to do it now before the rest of baseball decides the Twins will lose him anyway.

 

You had me until you suggested the Twins trade Sano.  

[nicksaviking]

 

First, with both Escobar and Sano on the DL makes dumpind Plouffe for "fries" stupid--somebody actually useful would be a different story. Second, there is no reason to rush either Escobar or Sano back to the lineup. The Twins would be better off  losing as often as possible and keeping those two in hot tubs so that they are completely healed. Third, Plouffe can be traded as soon as a replacement IF is found (signed) to takeover.

 

I'd think Polanco is ready to be given a fair shot.

 

The urgency really isn't about getting a good return for Plouffe, the urgency is to move guys who might not be movable once the A's, Angels, Yankees, Tigers, Brewers, Phillies, Rockies and other teams also decide they will not compete this year.

 

The Twins already know they're sellers.

[Otto von Ballpark]

I'd think Polanco is ready to be given a fair shot.

 

The urgency really isn't about getting a good return for Plouffe, the urgency is to move guys who might not be movable once the A's, Angels, Yankees, Tigers, Brewers, Phillies, Rockies and other teams also decide they will not compete this year.

 

The Twins already know they're sellers.

Problem is, by the same token, most teams are not yet committed to being buyers. We saw the steep price the Padres paid to get out ahead of the market with Shields.

[HitInAPinch]

Ah, I was following this Forum for awhile.  Then someone brought up ficus trees.