Article: Urgency To Trade Plouffe Growing

[HitInAPinch]

Trading Plouffe and his $7 mil contract......

 

Padres traded James Shields to White Sox yesterday and sent along $29mil in cash.

Yeah, it can be done     

[gunnarthor]

 

Trading Plouffe and his $7 mil contract......

 

Padres traded James Shields to White Sox yesterday and sent along $29mil in cash.

Yeah, it can be done     

Yeah, I'm sure the Twins could move him if they paid a substantial part of his salary.  Not sure the Padres got much in that trade - a journeyman starter and a 16 year old lottery ticket?  

 

I'm honestly not sure what teams will be looking for help at third.  But I do think he will be traded.

[Boom Boom]

Agree, also at Sano's size, I don't think this is going to be a quick recovery. So it's more likely he comes back at DH not at third. No reason to look to just dump Plouffe. If you can get better value for Park, move him instead since Sano future is at first or DH.

Park won't be traded for two reasons. International free agents may not want to play for the Twins if they think they might get traded halfway into their first season.

 

Also, if he traded Park, TR would be admitting that his one offseason move was a head scratcher that only compounded a logjam problem. It's completely true, but the GM would never admit that mistake.

[KGB]

 

Park won't be traded for two reasons. International free agents may not want to play for the Twins if they think they might get traded halfway into their first season.

Also, if he traded Park, TR would be admitting that his one offseason move was a head scratcher that only compounded a logjam problem. It's completely true, but the GM would never admit that mistake.

That also the reason given to not trading Josh Willingham at peak value - hope they still don't believe that. I'm not sure what value Park has in the trade market, but he should not be off the table because you are worried about future signings. 

[Thrylos]

 

Park won't be traded for two reasons. International free agents may not want to play for the Twins if they think they might get traded halfway into their first season.

 

I'll give you a third, and a fourth, and a fifth:

 

3. His OPS+ is 107, which means he is 7% better than the average MLB hitter, even though he has not fully adjusted to the MLB vs Korean baseball; he will improve an already above average performance

 

4. The Twins have already prepaid a bunch for Park and what is left is 3 years at $2.5M and $3M which is practically pocket change, plus an option for less than what Plouffe made this arbitration year

 

5. He is the best fielding first baseman the Twins have above A-ball.

Edited June 6, 2016 by Thrylos

[diehardtwinsfan]

Park won't be traded b/c he shouldn't be traded.  Not because some arrogant GM cannot admit a mistake or b/c international free agents through the posting system who have very little control over where they would play would suddenly not play for the Twins. 

[Pitz]

 

Park won't be traded for two reasons. International free agents may not want to play for the Twins if they think they might get traded halfway into their first season.
 

This argument continues to make little sense to me for a variety of reasons. I really don't think it's much of an issue.

 

First and foremost, I would think that the prospect of playing for 100-loss team would be much more of a deterrent to a free agent wanting to sign.

 

Wouldn't a majority of players like to be traded to more competitive teams?

 

Also, if players are worried about being traded, can't they negotiate such things in their contracts?

[ken]

For a 100 loss team,nobody should be untouchable. If Park has value and you have a in house replacement, you should have him available.

[DocBauer]

Fine job Nick! Especially in trying to keep something fresh that has been re-hashed so many times already. And I know I'll be repeating myself again....but....

 

* I got the idea of keeping Plouffe. At its base, it was not a bad idea. We had no clue what we were going to have with Mauer or Park, and initially, we didn't know we'd even have Park. But we pretty much know what we have now, going forward, how the pieces are fitting/going to fit, and it's time to move Plouffe for whatever we can get. That's not an unsalted to Plouffe, just urgency.

 

* Sano stays and plays 3B. Everything I've seen of him says he can play the position solidly. Not perfect, not Gold Glove, but solid. And that's OK and enough, especially with his bat. (Especially compared to some other all bat 3B around) And do we have to once again explore how poor defensively Gaetti and Koski were when they cam up? And others on other teams before settling in? It's a process. It takes time. There is every reason to believe he will only get better.

 

* I am now of the belief they shouldn't stop with Plouffe, but move on from Dozier as well. Not because I'm frustrated with Dozier...and I am...and not because I don't like Dozier...he's one of my favorite Twins the past few years, along with Plouffe...but because it just makes sense.

 

Dozier is young enough to be part of the rebuild. But what about Polanco? ASSUMING he really can't play ML SS for anything other than fill-in, he should possess all the tools to be a quality 2B who could still fill in at SS & 3B occassionally. While his ML sampling is disgustingly small to this point, everything in his talent bases and past production indicates he can hit, make some contact, take some walks, drive the ball with XB and occassionally HR power, run well and steal some bases, and has been a clutch hitter. Every year he starts out batting in the 1 or 2 spot and slides to the 3 spot to drive in runs. (Same thing Gordon has been doing lately)

 

Escobar and Nunez can share SS competition for now, with the likes of Santana and Beresford as addition INF support until Gordon is ready. This is not a bad INF overall, is young, and filled with potential.

[LaBombo]

 

Every time an ex-Twin has a good series against us ppl make out like we made a huge mistake. Danny Valencia was awful for years. He has a spotty mlb history. Leave him out of this.

Valencia has slugged over .500 every year since leaving the Twins,  with the exception of his age 29 season split between franchises.

 

He's nothing like a David Ortiz - level gaffe,  but he's also not a free pass for the Twins' Way either.   They let him go for essentially nothing while they were among the worst teams in baseball.

 

And just to be clear,   I'm infinitely more concerned about the Twins not having a system in place to extract value from a Danny Valencia during a 90 loss season than I am about the Twins not having Danny Valencia.

Edited June 6, 2016 by LaBombo

[diehardtwinsfan]

funny, when Danny was let go, I don't think there was too much consternation over here. 

[Mike Sixel]

 

funny, when Danny was let go, I don't think there was too much consternation over here. 

 

Doesn't make it right or wrong.....we aren't in control of the Twins' future.

[KirbyDome89]

Agreed that Sano at 3B would be better than in RF but I just want to be clear that Sano should be at 3B because he's a better defender, which in turns helps the team. He is no more at risk of crashing into a wall or getting hurt diving for a ball than Buxton or Kepler. Injuries are random and they're part of the game. IMO tommy john surgery and a couple hamstring pulls since joining professional baseball in 2010 doesn't make a guy injury prone. 

[Mike Sixel]

Btw, add Swihart to the list of out of position players that may be out for the year......I think maybe teams should stop putting guys that have no real experience out there in the OF.....

[jimmer]

 

 

5. He is the best fielding first baseman the Twins have above A-ball.

besides mauer

[KGB]

 

Trading Park makes no sense at all; even less if the reason you trade him is to keep Plouffe. Park may become a consistent MLB power hitter, something the Twins could use.

Park's perceived value is why you should listen to offers, just like Josh Willingham, he might not get more valuable than this.  Nobody is saying you should give him away.  You wouldn't be trading Park to keep Plouffe, you would be trading Park to have a place to play Sano.  Sano history in the minors doesn't show he going to be a much better fielder at third than he is in right field. If you trade Plouffe and find out Sano can't play third, you have not made anything better and you have put yourself in a bad trade position because you again have to trade a player to get Sano to DH.

 

Other than trading the young players, all options should be considered.

 

 

[Rosterman]

Well, when Sano is ready to come off the disabled list, send him to AAA Rochester for 7-10 games, partly for the heck of it, and mainly to play THIRD BASE every single game. Buy yourself 10 more days of a looksee at Kepler and Buxton (and Grossman) and maybe Arcia.

 

Sano is NOT the future outfielder for the Twins. He is the future third baseman, possibly a first base guy down the line, and settling into a David Ortiz role eventually. The Twins have more than enough guys to play and back-up the outfield.

 

Sadly, Plouffe is jsut a rental for a team and will only bring back a low-level prospect. He's too expensive to be packaged with another expensive contract. In that case, a team will stay in-house or grab someone similar to Nunez. In trading Nunez, the Twins don't solve the Sano issue, and possibly weaken themselves right now at shortstop.

 

Like trading away Mientkieweicz and Pierzynski, you do it to bring in the new guy who will give you x-amount of years at x-value, and the potential is there to outshine your current roster holder.

 

But I do say send Sano down for a rehab at Rochester to play third base, rather than just throw him into the spot. And if you still must keep Trevor, sadly, make him the super reserve (ala Cuddyer in the past) and have him play the outfield and first to increase his value to others as a tradechip.

 

[DocBauer]

Making the Plouffe move, Sano counter move also helps settle the OF.

 

I just don't think there's much question that Buxton and Kepler will be a part of it. Buxton may actually be ready to stick now. Hopefully, Kepler is ready "enough" now so that he can continue to grow and learn at the ML level. That's 2/3 of our OF.

 

Who's the third guy? I don't know, could be Rosario if he starts playing good defense again and can hit like the player he was in the minors, and most of last year for the Twins. Maybe it's Palka. Maybe a defensive speedster like Granite. Maybe 26 yo Grossman is a better overall find than previously thought, and instead of being a 4th OF, maybe he's just a solid, all around ML OF. Maybe.

 

But I'd rather settle my infield and settle settle 2/3 of my OF...including better defensively...with 1 final spot to fill

[Wizard11]

One more cliche to add to the mix..."addition by subtraction". At this point doubling down on a bad decision in an attempt to get "perceived value" for Plouffe is hubris. Ditch him already. On another note, I am curious and mildly hopeful that R. Grossman turns into a serviceable starter. He has an excellent pedigree in that he was once viewed as a good prospect and may be a late bloomer. It has been awhile since Shane Mack and we are due for a success story of such ilk. (Yes, I know Mack was a rule 5). I realize the probable outcome for Grossman is likely something much less.

[Platoon]

besides mauer

You beat me to it, no comparison. I don't think I have ever seen Mauer take a throw accidentally standing in foul territory. Park is better than I thought, but not Mauer. I know Park has some slugging numbers, but I'm not sure if they currently transfer into wins. Well, obviously they do not. But while he has ten HR's most are solo. And most are from off speed cookies. Maybe he will catch up, I don't know. But so far he hasn't seemed to be a bat that any team is going to try and figure out how to work around! Edited June 6, 2016 by Platoon

[gocgo]

When Sano comes back, why should it be an automatic that we put him back in right field?  Never mind trading Plouffe or the market for him.  If the Twins have both on the roster, what's the harm in putting Sano at 3rd and putting Plouffe in right?  Is Plouffe gonna be worse than Sano in right?  Maybe, but who cares?  We stink.  Is Sano gonna be worse than Plouffe at 3rd?  Maybe, but who cares?  We stink.  Long term, Plouffe isn't in our plans.  Sano at 3rd is in the plans.  So, why not put the future into motion now?  Why management keeps trotting Sano out to right field as if that is is future position on the team is beyond comprehension.

[tobi0040]

The other thing is Plouffe has a career .809 OPS against lefties.

 

So had TR not been satisfied with the return, at least we could be using him appropriately especially when Arcia was up here. At this point it doesn't matter, but it would make me more optimistic about the franchise if we caught up to where the league was five years ago

 

*i get the first platoon was longer than five years ago. But it seems more widespread in about 2010 or so

Edited June 6, 2016 by tobi0040

[Craig Arko]

 

Doesn't make it right or wrong.....we aren't in control of the Twins' future.

I've been saying this for years; I usually get asked to leave.

[bird]

 

Believe it or not there are plenty who do. I lost faith in his ability to be the GM we need back in 2007, but plenty on this board seem to completely trust his judgment. 

 

I don't think you're making a valid assessment. I wouldn't be so quick to categorize your pals here in such black and white terms. You run the risk of unfairly labeling people as undiscerning apologists when the reality is simply that they hold a view different than your own.

 

It's a very small minority on this board who completely trust Ryan's judgement. In other words, very few people on here do. There is a larger minority on this board who have not completely "lost faith" in his ability as a GM. I'm part of this larger minority, and yet, just like I felt about Gardy, I can get behind the idea of a change. However, just like in the case of Gardy's replacement, I think there's a real good chance Ryan's replacement won't be the cure-all some people expect, even if the replacement is a person with a solid reputation within the blogging sphere.

Edited June 6, 2016 by birdwatcher

[LaBombo]

 

funny, when Danny was let go, I don't think there was too much consternation over here. 

There are two potential problems with that sort of sentiment.

 

The first is that it appears to set the bar for Twins front office management at the somewhat disappointingly low level of 'No dumber than the average fan'.

 

The second is that in a case of the fan base being generally right when the FO is wrong, the flip side of that sentiment often turns into some version of  'We don't have access to all the information the front office does, so we're not qualified to second-guess'.

 

In a way,   though,   guess it balances out.   The first issue more or less dooms the Twins to futility,  and the second part sort of disqualifies us from having an opinion about that doom in the first place.

Edited June 6, 2016 by LaBombo

[whosafraidofluigirussolo]

Thought it might be worth pointing out that a week ago MLB Trade Rumors published a list of 10 current trade candidates and had Plouffe at #8 (as well as Abad at #10.)

 

This opinion doesn't represent "the industry," and doesn't necessarily mean that the Twins would get a lot for him, but it does seem that people outside the fan/homer sphere think there's some trade value there.

[Vanimal46]

Yeah I'm not going to read into that list just yet. They're only highlighting players from the worst of the worst teams out there. More sellers will come into focus over the next month and a half. 

[tobi0040]

The second is that in a case of the fan base being generally right when the FO is wrong, the flip side of that sentiment often turns into some version of  'We don't have access to all the information the front office does, so we're not qualified to second-guess'.

We will never have all the access they do or the resources. We do know that 28 teams have more wins than us since 2011. By year end the Astros may put us dead last.

[ken]

 

There are two potential problems with that sort of sentiment.

 

The first is that it appears to set the bar for Twins front office management at the somewhat disappointingly low level of 'No dumber than the average fan'.

 

The second is that in a case of the fan base being generally right when the FO is wrong, the flip side of that sentiment often turns into some version of  'We don't have access to all the information the front office does, so we're not qualified to second-guess'.

 

In a way,   though,   guess it balances out.   The first issue more or less dooms the Twins to futility,  and the second part sort of disqualifies us from having an opinion about that doom in the first place.

The Twins were in good company in cutting Valencia.  Boston, Baltimore, Kansas City and Toronto always dropped him. 

 

[by jiminy]

What I don't understand is, Why not have Plouffe and Sano just swap positions right now?

 

Plouffe has played the outfield before. Would it really lower Plouffe's trade value that much to remind people he has positional flexibility?

 

I can imagine three legitimate reasons for starting Plouffe at third over Sano at the start of the season. But they are all fading:

 

1) Plouffe was the better third baseman, and they were trying to win now. That rationale is obviously moot.

 

2) They think Sano has no future at third. If that's the case, his positions are DH, 1B, and outfield. With the unexpected acquisition of Park, that left outfield. So they parked him there until Mauer got injured or Park got sent to the minors, neither of which happened. And the team is so bad there's no real harm in letting Sano learn a new position up here, where he can face major league pitching. If that's the thinking, fine, I guess. But his transition is not going so well and should perhaps be reconsidered.

 

3) They still want Sano at third long-term, but felt the need to puff up Plouffe's trade value by keeping him the starting third baseman. And hey, it's possible holding out till there were injuries at third on the Mets and KC worked. But if this is the plan they better unload him quick before Sano breaks something, like a bone, ligament, or the outfield wall.

 

If a trade happens soon, their patience may still pay off. As stated above, Plouffe's value in the off-season was obviously zero, based on the Freese contract. Maybe it's more now.

 

But I still don't see  the downside of a positional swap now. There are even some advantages. For instance, suppose Sano flops at third. Wouldn't you rather find that out BEFORE you give away his only replacement? Sure, you'd then have to play Plouffe in the outfield, not sit him on the bench, or his trade value would diminish. But so what? Is it really that important for Grossman to play every day?