Could Plouffe be Nontendered?

[Riverbrian]

 

Regardless of where Sano plays, I actually have been arguing that this team was not better with Plouffe in the lineup since this off season. The team has too many guys who don't make contact and don't get on base and due to his age and position, Plouffe should have been the most expendable of those guys. Even if Plouffe could outperform Polanco in OPS, the Twins need an upgrade at OBP. In my mind, Plouffe should have been removed or bench simply to get a guy in the lineup who can get on base.

 

Also he's a vet, so we all knew Molitor would bat him in the middle of the lineup instead of 7th or so as he should on most other teams. I'm not talking hindsight here either, I'm talking about 2015 Plouffe, not 2016.

 

Coming off of last year (lucky or not)... I would have been keeping Vet players and looking for some more. 

 

Now that 2016 has happened... I'm keeping youth. 

[nicksaviking]

 

I don't know.....OBP is nice, but if they have 7 20+ HR hitters.....well, they would be like the Orioles, right? The problem is that Sano, Park, Dozier, Plouffe, Rosario+ two guys that luck into it, aren't hitting 20+ HRs like the Twins planned (I believe that was their plan this year, lots of HRs).

 

 

That probably was their plan, and I don't mind trying something else, it's certainly a departure from past plans. However they should have foreseen that most of those HR would be of the solo variety.

[nicksaviking]

 

 

Coming off of last year (lucky or not)... I would have been keeping Vet players and looking for some more. 

 

I know. I didn't share that thought, but it was a popular sentiment around here last off season.

 

For the record, I think Trevor Plouffe would be a fantastic bench/utility player. Just not a good option to lock into 3B and the 4-5 spot in the lineup. I'd bet if need be, he could play all four corners and 2B.

[wsnydes]

 

Coming off of last year (lucky or not)... I would have been keeping Vet players and looking for some more. 

 

Now that 2016 has happened... I'm keeping youth. 

But that would stunt the growth of the future for the sake of the present.  They're stuck between flat out rebuilding (like they should be doing) and trying to remain relevant (which is what they have been doing for 4 years).

[Riverbrian]

 

Nick stole my thunder, but Plouffe has been wildly overrated here for the last few years.  He's a perfectly acceptable player, but not the kind of guy you just have to wedge into your plans.  And he was utterly redundant in this lineup.

 

Part of your advocacy about moving him to RF is based on an idea I find very wrong-headed.  Versatility is only versatility if the guy can actually field the position competently.  Technically we could play Glen Perkins in CF and call it versatility, but it ain't the kind I'm interested in.

 

The awesome thing about going the wrong direction is the ability to stop and turn around and go the right direction.  

 

This appears to be the part that the Twins are struggling with. I have fully supported Sano in RF but after watching the result... I recommend turning around. 

 

I agree with your comment on versatility. You have to be at least competent. 

 

The part where we may disagree is that I believe that there are a lot of MLB players who are shackled at one position when they could be playing more and should be playing more positions. For the teams benefit and theirs. 

 

Sano may not be one of those players and in my mind his move to RF has now become just another reference point for the multitude of missed assessments made because they are still trying to make it work. 

 

I supported the move and I'm saying... OK... start turning back around now. They are still trying to make it work. 

 

 

[Riverbrian]

 

But that would stunt the growth of the future for the sake of the present.  They're stuck between flat out rebuilding (like they should be doing) and trying to remain relevant (which is what they have been doing for 4 years).

 

I didn't make that determination. Terry Ryan did... Terry Ryan decided against a youth movement. 

 

The Twins should have torn it down and gone youth movement... 5 years ago.

 

They didn't and now we have Nolasco and Hughes. 

 

I would have simply worked under the assumption that something clicked a little last year so... let's see what we can do to help them in 2016 and I think most GM's would have done the same. 

 

Getting younger wouldn't have helped that. 

 

2016 is a disaster... I'm all for going young now. In the off-season... I was not.

[Vanimal46]

 

I know. I didn't share that thought, but it was a popular sentiment around here last off season.

 

For the record, I think Trevor Plouffe would be a fantastic bench/utility player. Just not a good option to lock into 3B and the 4-5 spot in the lineup. I'd bet if need be, he could play all four corners and 2B.

That very well could be how Plouffe sticks around the majors as he enters his 30's. I wouldn't mind if he was in that role for this team next year. But I assume he's going to want to start some place. It shouldn't be in Minnesota anymore. 

[HitInAPinch]

 

Wright is always injured......they should never count on him. Any time from him should be considered bonus to your plan A. 

Wright is now out for 6 - 8 weeks.  Fire up them trade rumors!!

 

 

http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2016/06/david-wright-expected-to-miss-extended-period.html

[HitInAPinch]

Look who's on the 'plausible' list:    

 

http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2016/06/mets-royals-trade-options-wright-moustakas.html

[Mike Sixel]

 

I didn't make that determination. Terry Ryan did... Terry Ryan decided against a youth movement. 

 

The Twins should have torn it down and gone youth movement... 5 years ago.

 

They didn't and now we have Nolasco and Hughes. 

 

I would have simply worked under the assumption that something clicked a little last year so... let's see what we can do to help them in 2016 and I think most GM's would have done the same. 

 

Getting younger wouldn't have helped that. 

 

2016 is a disaster... I'm all for going young now. In the off-season... I was not.

 

As usual, though, the FO did neither....did not go even younger, did not go out and get the team a bullpen or an OF veteran. They just stayed pat other than Park, and Abad. Maybe they felt that was enough....but if they felt that, well, that's an issue.

[Riverbrian]

If I was Trevor... I would be begging Molitor for the chance to play other positions. Begging and bringing gifts to bribe. 

 

His market is limited as a 3B only. If he shows he can play OF along with 3B and 1B. 

 

He just increased his value and his odds of having a longer career. 

[TheLeviathan]

 

The part where we may disagree is that I believe that there are a lot of MLB players who are shackled at one position when they could be playing more and should be playing more positions. For the teams benefit and theirs. 

 

IMO, that should be established long before the major leagues and certainly not auditioned there.  Sano's conversion to RF is about as terribly as I can imagine that being handled.

[Thrylos]

 

1) He's likely hurt. 

2) He's hitting .246/.277/.362 and those numbers don't look a whole lot better if you make the sample size the past year.  He's an average at best option in the field.  

3) Danny Valencia, Yunel Escobar, and others are also under optional team control for next year, and better players than Plouffe.  

4) Wilmer Flores costs them nothing, and is likely to match any production Plouffe would provide. Dilson Herrera is a decently thought of prospect available to play 2B, with a shift of Walker to 3B. 

 

1 is a guess. 

 

2 Yes, but he can do better; has a career 98 OPS

 

3. The As and Angels are 4 and 5 games under .500.  Too early for them to throw in the towel.  Not sure that Valencia & Escobar are better than Plouffe, esp with the glove. They are swinging hot bats this seasons.

 

4. .167/.242/.267  Flores' slash line this season and he has played a grand total of 34  games at 3B in the majors... 

 

[David HK]

 

Regardless of where Sano plays, I actually have been arguing that this team was not better with Plouffe in the lineup since this off season. The team has too many guys who don't make contact and don't get on base and due to his age and position, Plouffe should have been the most expendable of those guys. Even if Plouffe could outperform Polanco in OPS, the Twins need an upgrade at OBP. In my mind, Plouffe should have been removed or bench simply to get a guy in the lineup who can get on base.

 

Also he's a vet, so we all knew Molitor would bat him in the middle of the lineup instead of 7th or so as he should on most other teams. I'm not talking hindsight here either, I'm talking about 2015 Plouffe, not 2016.

I was in the same corner through the off season.  Then, was utterly astounded at the Sano to the OF announcement.  I'm not going to rehash that stuff, but I was also in the camp of 'well, if you're going to be gacking up RF anyway, why not put the vet out there, as he's been before, and leave your budding young slugger at his familiar position, and not make him try to do an extra major thing in his first full season?'  I mean, if you're going to totally surrender your RF flank anyway, why the heck would you....  oh, never mind.

So now we see the fruits of that 'thinking' process.  And yep, as you said, Molly just sticks him out there in the 4 or 5 time and again, for no other reason than, well, he's a vet, ain't he?  

[alarp33]

1 is a guess.

 

2 Yes, but he can do better; has a career 98 OPS

 

3. The As and Angels are 4 and 5 games under .500. Too early for them to throw in the towel. Not sure that Valencia & Escobar are better than Plouffe, esp with the glove. They are swinging hot bats this seasons.

 

4. .167/.242/.267 Flores' slash line this season and he has played a grand total of 34 games at 3B in the majors...

 

Valencia has a .908 ops since June 1 last year, Escobars is .794. Not really comparable to Plouffe. Valencia has a 147 wRC+, Plouffe is 85. This isn't a small sample size (Flores' 60 at bats this year is... Though I'm not th biggest fan of his I don't think he's any worse of an option than Plouffe)

 

As for defense, I can't say I watch a ton of A's and Angels games, but you're watching different Twins games than me if you think Plouffe's D is in any way a positive... I would say it's average if I'm being kind.

 

Edit: "He's hurt" is a guess, you are right. If its an inaccurate guess, what's the answer for a .526 OPS since returning from the DL. He's old? He stinks?

[Ncgo4]

Sano is the biggest player to ever start in the outfield. Ever. It is now firmly established that he has hamstring issues. He has also fully demonstrated he cannot field the position. If any one ever puts him back into RF they s/b fired on the spot.

 

There can be no reason ever for him to be put back in the outfield.

[kab21]

 

Sano is the biggest player to ever start in the outfield. Ever. It is now firmly established that he has hamstring issues. He has also fully demonstrated he cannot field the position. If any one ever puts him back into RF they s/b fired on the spot.

There can be no reason ever for him to be put back in the outfield.

He would also be one of the biggest ever (The Panda and MCab were also terrible fielders) to play 3B so that is irrelevant. Sano likely can't play defense anywhere. Even 3B.

It seems the answer here is to swap Park and Sano which means the Twins still need a 3B. Perhaps Polanco could play there. If not him then it is Nunez or Escobar.

 

Plouffe is probably better than all of them regardless what his 2 months of stats say. He is a streaky hitter (usually 2 great months/yr) and I would not be surprised at all if he ends up with his typical .250/.310/.430/.740 stat line. 

[tobi0040]

He would also be one of the biggest ever (The Panda and MCab were also terrible fielders) to play 3B so that is irrelevant. Sano likely can't play defense anywhere. Even 3B.

 

It seems the answer here is to swap Park and Sano which means the Twins still need a 3B. Perhaps Polanco could play there. If not him then it is Nunez or Escobar.

 

Plouffe is probably better than all of them regardless what his 2 months of stats say. He is a streaky hitter (usually 2 great months/yr) and I would not be surprised at all if he ends up with his typical .250/.310/.430/.740 stat line.

Pretty interesting study about size and 3b defense.

 

Scott Rolen was 6'4 and 247. He won 8 gold gloves and had a dWAR of over 20. He was still providing positive defensive value at 36 and 37.

 

http://www.beyondtheboxscore.com/2012/3/15/2872579/height-weight-and-converting-to-third-base

[old nurse]

 

Pretty interesting study about size and 3b defense.

Scott Rolen was 6'4 and 247. He won 8 gold gloves and had a dWAR of over 20. He was still providing positive defensive value at 36 and 37.

http://www.beyondtheboxscore.com/2012/3/15/2872579/height-weight-and-converting-to-third-base

Rolen started playing at 200#. Note as time went on, the gold gloves went down. The weight went up. For the year listed in your story Rolen played under 600 innings of 3b. Not a full time starter there

[tobi0040]

Rolen started playing at 200#. Note as time went on, the gold gloves went down. The weight went up. For the year listed in your story Rolen played under 600 innings of 3b. Not a full time starter there

At 35 and 36, a year away from his last year he played 200 games at third and had a dWAR of 2.4. Not to mention his bat is worth more at 3b.

 

By any objective measure, Sano's value is at least 2-3 wins better at third. He would not post -3 d war as his bat has to be worth another 1 plus. That is a conservative number and doesn't factor in a more subjective thought that RF may be hurting his offense.

[TheLeviathan]

I'd like to see the guy actually play 3B before we use a scale to determine he can't.  Nothing about his limited time there has indicated he's terrible at it.

[tobi0040]

I'd like to see the guy actually play 3B before we use a scale to determine he can't. Nothing about his limited time there has indicated he's terrible at it.

Yup. Same could be said about May in the rotation. For a team who needs a whole host of young guys to step up, they seem to determine really quick that guys can't play the positions that hold the most value.

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

In the short amount of time he has gotten to actually play third base this year, Sano has made every play and is actually ranked tops in the majors.

[USAFChief]

I'd like to see the guy actually play 3B before we use a scale to determine he can't.  Nothing about his limited time there has indicated he's terrible at it.

Perhaps you could give the same leeway to him playing right field. More than a quarter of a season before using a scale to determine he can't.

[tobi0040]

Perhaps you could give the same leeway to him playing right field. More than a quarter of a season before using a scale to determine he can't.

I think we can safely assume he would be better at 3b than RF. I would argue Kepler is probably worth 3-4 more wins defensively than Sano ( -2 or -3 vs. +1) in RF. But a bat is more valuable at 3b than RF, so I would rather rule out 3b. Then maybe RF and 1b before making him a DH.

 

This team is not good enough to be bungling these decisions that cost wins

[DocBauer]

So instead we're marching a bad hitter out to the cleanup spot every day, forcing another guy who can't play OF to the OF, and realistically talking about cutting him for nothing after the season.

 

Who the hell cares what the return would've been?  Isn't it more than evident that the point many of us made in the offseason - move him, return be damned - was the right play?  Even if he goes on some hot streak in July, what is he going to fetch?

THIS.

 

Listen, I've always liked Plouffe over all. And there is a part of me that still gets why he was brought back. But he just doesn't fit the future of this team. Sano may never be great defensively at 3B, but has shown he can play the position decently. And I dont think it's a stretch to say he can and will get better with more time and repetition. And really, he's going to be better there than the OF.

 

No to next year. And it's time to move him this year to make room for Sano, and just get the best return for him you can. But like him or not, he's got to be worth more than just a non-tender.

[tobi0040]

No to next year. And it's time to move him this year to make room for Sano, and just get the best return for him you can. But like him or not, he's got to be worth more than just a non-tender.

Terry likely saw Plouffe play in high school. And saw him grow up. And maybe Terry was at his wedding.

 

But if we do the right thing and bring in an external GM, moving Plouffe will be a no brainer day 1 decision, right after orientation, the bullying videos, and right before lunch and the tour of Target Field.

[TheLeviathan]

 

Perhaps you could give the same leeway to him playing right field. More than a quarter of a season before using a scale to determine he can't.

 

Treating those two things as if they're equal is ridiculous.  One position he had never played until about 3 months ago and the other he's been playing for 3+ years.  

 

I'm not using his height or weight to determine he can't play RF at the major league level.  I'm using his actual on-field performance.  Which is indisputably bad.  Horrific.  Terrifying.  Worthy of Benny Hill music on a loop.  

 

And further, I'm using the fact that the only reason we moved him to the position he can't play is for a decidedly mediocre player who isn't even playing up to those meager standards.

[jimmer]

 

 

And further, I'm using the fact that the only reason we moved him to the position he can't play is for a decidedly mediocre player who isn't even playing up to those meager standards.

Well, that was one reason.  We also filled the spot in the lineup he's best suited, DH.  Lest we forget, he was DH most of his time with the Twins last year, where he flourished.

 

We also can't toss away the notion that the Twins didn't think he could play 3B at the MLB level (whether one agrees with that evaluation or not, it might have been a motivation). Though one wonders why they'd think he couldn't play a position he's played for awhile, while also believing he could play a position he had never played before and do so at the ML level with any kind of competency.  Wasn't hard to see, well in advance and with no need of hindsight, to know how that would work out.

[TheLeviathan]

 

Well, that was one reason.  We also filled the spot in the lineup he's best suited, DH.  Lest we forget, he was DH most of last year, where he flourished.

 

Agreed, though I wouldn't have minded that move as much had 3B still been open for Sano.  

 

But a lot of this bungled mess is due to a continued belief (a completely asinine one) that just any ol' infielder can play the outfield.  Which has failed with Bartlett, Santana, Escobar, Nunez, Sano....and perhaps I'm missing more?