Could Plouffe be Nontendered?

[Otto von Ballpark]

 

The Mets are cheap as well.  I would be shocked if the Twins made a deal with them... Plouffe is expensive, and frankly not all that good.  If you were the Mets would you trade something for Plouffe right now or wait to see how the market develops and play internal guys? Or give a marginally better 

prospect to get a cheaper, better player in Valencia?

You might be on to something.  The Mets did pick up Juan Uribe, Kelly Johnson, and Tyler Clippard last year at the deadline, but their former teams chipped in a bit of cash in each deal.

 

I suspect the Mets have no interest in paying extra June/July salary for anyone, so they will evaluate their internal options and perhaps make a move at the deadline.  At the point, though, the Twins might still be at a disadvantage, as Plouffe has one of the higher guarantees on the market (considering Hill & Prado both have salary relief already attached from their former teams).  And have the Twins ever included cash in a deal?

[dxpavelka]

If my name is Pohlad I make it known to Terry Ryan that he will not be making such a decision after the season.  Plouffe needs to be moved before the stretch run and Sano installed as the 3B.  Failure to do so will /would result in Ryan himself being removed before said Plouffe decision is made after the season.

[LaBombo]

 

I think it is going to come down to whether or not the Twins really think Sano is a 3B. Yes, I know that they have always publicly said it but I think Sano being in RF right now is partly due to their own doubts.

 

Honestly people need to get over this mythical missed opportunity to trade Plouffe this offseason. There wasn't a market for 3B and the return would have been minimal. The better choice was to hope that an injury would happen forcing a team to offer a reasonable trade for him.

Well,   the injury half of your scenario at the end has happened.   Or injuries,   if you include Sano.

 

Seriously,  though,  probably no one would argue that every franchise has strengths and weaknesses by position and by level throughout their organization.    And MLB in general does see mild fluctuations over time in the overall quality of the players at a given position.

 

That being said,  if Trevor Plouffe had NO VALUE to ANY other team in the league this winter,   and yet was conversely so valuable to the Twins on Opening Day that arguably its most valuable player OR prospect had to play out of position (way out of position,  as we've seen) to accommodate Plouffe,   then an in-season firing of the GM is not only justified but required.

[tobi0040]

If my name is Pohlad I make it known to Terry Ryan that he will not be making such a decision after the season.  Plouffe needs to be moved before the stretch run and Sano installed as the 3B.  Failure to do so will /would result in Ryan himself being removed before said Plouffe decision is made after the season.

If I was Pohlad I would conclude that I don't really like being the face of an MLB franchise, I have seen my inheritance exlode in value, and realize that I am not very good at owning and running a team.

 

So I would sell and go sit on a beach for the next 10 years.

[stringer bell]

There is no doubt in my mind that Plouffe is playing injured. He's dealing with the intercostal and a sore knee for sure. He should be disabled and allowed to play closer to 100%. Heck, it might increase his trade value.

[beckmt]

TR is good at getting A+ guys that turn out to have value.  Give it some time.

[birddog]

I don't care what percent of their contracts the Twins need to eat, Plouffe, Nolasco and Hughes must be gone. The thought of tendering Plouffe for $10 million is downright laughable. Not too long ago, there was a tremendous shortage of quality 3B, but now they are quite abundant. As mentioned earlier, the Twins must find out if Sano can play third or if he will just be a DH in which case we need to look at the interest in Park. 

 

Not sure if TR can make the right moves any more. Just hoping he doesn't sign Grossman for 4 years and $40 million.

[David HK]

 

Plouffe or Ryan?

(I hope for the Twins' sake that both are gone by July)

Throw in Molly and you got a deal.

[Thrylos]

 

There is no doubt in my mind that Plouffe is playing injured. He's dealing with the intercostal and a sore knee for sure. He should be disabled and allowed to play closer to 100%. Heck, it might increase his trade value.

 

The Mets just lost Wright today.  They will trade for someone within the week.  Might as well be Plouffe.  There are few buyers at this point and the Mets are one highly motivated one.  The Twins can play Nunez at 3B until Sano returns from the DL.

If the Mets get a 3B, there will be one less buying in the market.  Ryan has to act now.

[Mike Sixel]

Almost no trades are made before the draft.....

[wsnydes]

 

Almost no trades are made before the draft.....

I know you're right, but that doesn't mean that TR shouldn't pick up the phone.

[alarp33]

 

The Mets just lost Wright today.  They will trade for someone within the week.  Might as well be Plouffe.  There are few buyers at this point and the Mets are one highly motivated one.  The Twins can play Nunez at 3B until Sano returns from the DL.

If the Mets get a 3B, there will be one less buying in the market.  Ryan has to act now.

 

I'm all for Ryan trying to act now.  But you aren't listing any reason why the Mets would want Plouffe. He's better than the internal options, or other 5+ 3rd baseman seemingly "available"?   

 

 

[Vanimal46]

 

That's true, also if we don't trade Plouffe, we could non-tender him and try to sign him back at a reduced price.

I honestly wouldn't be opposed to that if he becomes the new Nunez. A 1-2 year deal for $5 mill a season sounds reasonable. If he's looking to start then it probably won't work out here. 

[Thrylos]

 

I'm all for Ryan trying to act now.  But you aren't listing any reason why the Mets would want Plouffe. He's better than the internal options, or other 5+ 3rd baseman seemingly "available"?   

 

He is better than their internal options.  Not sure who else is available, but Plouffe is under (optional) team control for this and next season, and if Ryan pays 1/2 of what he is owed, he might be made a better option than the competition.  Likely better on the field than other available options as well.

[Thrylos]

 

I honestly wouldn't be opposed to that if he becomes the new Nunez. 

 

The "new Nunez" conceptually is not far away from the "new Punto"; just about a manager's mancrush away...

[Winston Smith]

 

Almost no trades are made before the draft.....

There have been about 20 trades in the last 30 days so trades are made. It's just most are minor deals until July.

[Otto von Ballpark]

 

The Mets just lost Wright today.  They will trade for someone within the week.

The Mets lost Wright last year too, on April 14, and didn't trade for a 3B until the July deadline.

[alarp33]

 

He is better than their internal options.  Not sure who else is available, but Plouffe is under (optional) team control for this and next season, and if Ryan pays 1/2 of what he is owed, he might be made a better option than the competition.  Likely better on the field than other available options as well.

 

1) He's likely hurt. 

2) He's hitting .246/.277/.362 and those numbers don't look a whole lot better if you make the sample size the past year.  He's an average at best option in the field.  

3) Danny Valencia, Yunel Escobar, and others are also under optional team control for next year, and better players than Plouffe.  

4) Wilmer Flores costs them nothing, and is likely to match any production Plouffe would provide. Dilson Herrera is a decently thought of prospect available to play 2B, with a shift of Walker to 3B. 

 

 

 

 

[Riverbrian]

 

The Twins are 16-37, Plouffe is below replacement level, Sano has been a disaster in RF (which everyone expected).  Why isn't it ok to continue talking about Plouffe being traded? The minimal return would be an upgrade over what they could get for him today.  

 

Kab is talking about this past off season. From the outside it doesn't look like there was a decent trade market for 3B yet everyone seems to be worked up because he wasn't traded or basically given away.

 

I have no idea if the Twins tried to deal Plouffe or not but if you look at how cheaply Frazier and Lawrie came to the White Sox. How cheaply Escobar was sent to the Angels and how Alverez and Freese were not being signed until really really late in the off season and it looks pretty obvious that the Twins would have given Plouffe away and if that's the case... He has more value simply playing for the Twins instead. That's the part that Kab is talking about and I agree with him on this. 

 

Now that the Royals and Mets have some injury issues to address at 3B and maybe some other teams are not happy with their 3B production... maybe the market will loosen up and this may justify the trading of Trevor. I have no idea how the market will ebb or flow... just speculation from the outside on my part. 

 

 

[alarp33]

 

He has more value simply playing for the Twins instead. That's the part that Kab is talking about and I agree with him on this. 

 

 

This was kind of my point.  This just isn't true at all.  He forced them into a box with Sano, their most important asset, is costing them $7 million (hello Bullpen help), and has been TERRIBLE.  On a team that does not need his specific skill set in the least (Right handed, Little power, no on base skills).  

 

Obviously the whole team has been a trainwreck, but lets not act like people who said to give him away weren't correct in that this would be a better team with Kepler in RF and Sano at 3b 

[Riverbrian]

 

So instead we're marching a bad hitter out to the cleanup spot every day, forcing another guy who can't play OF to the OF, and realistically talking about cutting him for nothing after the season.

 

Who the hell cares what the return would've been?  Isn't it more than evident that the point many of us made in the offseason - move him, return be damned - was the right play?  Even if he goes on some hot streak in July, what is he going to fetch?

 

I won't defend the Twins Front Office evaluations of the players... they can't be defended but if you believe that Sano can play RF and I think the Twins did. 

 

The Twins are a better team with Sano and Plouffe in the lineup. 

 

Did it turn out that way... No it didn't... But if you believe that Sano can play RF giving Plouffe away would be incredibly questionable. 

 

Turns out... Sano may not be able to play RF everyday and this makes Sano as the everyday RF questionable.

 

Full Disclosure: I have been a consistent supporter of Sano in RF since the experiment was announced. I still don't mind the occasional start in RF for him now and in the future but based on his play... everyday in RF does not seem like good future planning going forward to me. 

 

I think the Twins have to be coming to that same conclusion and this means at some point... they will slam Sano back into 3B and that moment will come when Plouffe is no longer with the Twins. 

 

It's got to happen so the Twins should get out front and start giving Sano occasional starts at 3B when he gets off the DL. Instead of just slamming him back because they need a 3B after Plouffe is gone. 

 

The rest of 2016 should be used to prep for these type scenarios.. in my opinion.  

[wsnydes]

 

This was kind of my point.  This just isn't true at all.  He forced them into a box with Sano, their most important asset, is costing them $7 million (hello Bullpen help), and has been TERRIBLE.  On a team that does not need his specific skill set in the least (Right handed, Little power, no on base skills).  

 

Obviously the whole team has been a trainwreck, but lets not act like people who said to give him away weren't correct in that this would be a better team with Kepler in RF and Sano at 3b 

Signing Park only made this worse.  Without that, you simply allow Sano to DH another year and still allow your OF prospects to come up and earn a spot.  At that point, you could still move Plouffe at this years deadline and be no worse off.

[nicksaviking]

 

I won't defend the Twins Front Office evaluations of the players... they can't be defended but if you believe that Sano can play RF and I think the Twins did. 

 

The Twins are a better team with Sano and Plouffe in the lineup. 

 

Did it turn out that way... No it didn't... But if you believe that Sano can play RF giving Plouffe away would be incredibly questionable.

 

Regardless of where Sano plays, I actually have been arguing that this team was not better with Plouffe in the lineup since this off season. The team has too many guys who don't make contact and don't get on base and due to his age and position, Plouffe should have been the most expendable of those guys. Even if Plouffe could outperform Polanco in OPS, the Twins need an upgrade at OBP. In my mind, Plouffe should have been removed or bench simply to get a guy in the lineup who can get on base.

 

Also he's a vet, so we all knew Molitor would bat him in the middle of the lineup instead of 7th or so as he should on most other teams. I'm not talking hindsight here either, I'm talking about 2015 Plouffe, not 2016.

[MileHighTwinsFan]

Bottom line is that Plouffe is not a middle of the order bat.  I think he could easily be the 3b for the foreseeable future if they had confidence that Sano, Buxton, and Park could do the heavy lifting offensively. 

 

In my mind he slots nicely into the 7th spot in the order - but because we don't have proven and successful offense in the rest of the lineup, he is pushed into the heart of the order.

 

What will be interesting to watch is whether Kepler can stake his claim for a corner outfield spot.  If so, it seems like it makes little sense to keep Plouffe if you can field Buxton, Kepler, Rosario in the outfield and return Sano to third.  

 

I think there is a very reasonable chance that both Plouffe and Dozier are gone by September 1 and we have a lineup with Polanco at 2nd, Sano at 3rd and Buxton, Kepler and Rosario in the outfield. 

 

[Mr. Brooks]

I think it is going to come down to whether or not the Twins really think Sano is a 3B. Yes, I know that they have always publicly said it but I think Sano being in RF right now is partly due to their own doubts.

 

Honestly people need to get over this mythical missed opportunity to trade Plouffe this offseason. There wasn't a market for 3B and the return would have been minimal. The better choice was to hope that an injury would happen forcing a team to offer a reasonable trade for him.

A minimal return would be better than they'll be able to get for him now.

No team in baseball would consider him a starter right now.

[alarp33]

 

Regardless of where Sano plays, I actually have been arguing that this team was not better with Plouffe in the lineup since this off season. The team has too many guys who don't make contact and don't get on base and due to his age and position, Plouffe should have been the most expendable of those guys. Even if Plouffe could outperform Polanco in OPS, the Twins need an upgrade at OBP. In my mind, Plouffe should have been removed or bench simply to get a guy in the lineup who can get on base.

 

Also he's a vet, so we all knew Molitor would bat him in the middle of the lineup instead of 7th or so as he should on most other teams. I'm not talking hindsight here either, I'm talking about 2015 Plouffe, not 2016.

 

Right, Kepler and Polanco are sorely needed in this lineup because they seem to have on base skills, something the rest of the lineup lacks.  

 

Once Sano is healthy, if Plouffe can't be traded by then... Plouffe sits vs RHP, Arcia (LF or DH.. Grossman or Park to bench) Kepler (RF) and Sano (3B) play.  Arcia sits vs LHP, Plouffe (3B), Sano (RF), Kepler (LF) all play 

[Mike Sixel]

I don't know.....OBP is nice, but if they have 7 20+ HR hitters.....well, they would be like the Orioles, right? The problem is that Sano, Park, Dozier, Plouffe, Rosario+ two guys that luck into it, aren't hitting 20+ HRs like the Twins planned (I believe that was their plan this year, lots of HRs).

 

I can't recall what I said, but I'm pretty sure I wanted Sano at 3B to start the year, and didn't care that much what happened to Plouffe. This largely stems from not expecting to win Park, and then NOT HAVING A PLAN for what to do when they did, which Molitor largely admitted.

[Vanimal46]

 

I don't know.....OBP is nice, but if they have 7 20+ HR hitters.....well, they would be like the Orioles, right? The problem is that Sano, Park, Dozier, Plouffe, Rosario+ two guys that luck into it, aren't hitting 20+ HRs like the Twins planned (I believe that was their plan this year, lots of HRs).

 

I can't recall what I said, but I'm pretty sure I wanted Sano at 3B to start the year, and didn't care that much what happened to Plouffe. This largely stems from not expecting to win Park, and then NOT HAVING A PLAN for what to do when they did, which Molitor largely admitted.

Yep that was the plan to have a lineup full of HR hitters. I remember articles on this site before the season started proposing the idea if the 2016 Twins could break the franchise record of HRs in a season. 

Like you I wanted Sano at 3B as well, and wanted Plouffe traded in the off-season. But the lack of a trade market and the team thinking they were much closer to contention than they really are put a damper on that. 

[Riverbrian]

Plouffe didn't force them into a box with Sano. 

 

The Twins determined that Sano could play RF. 

 

This may end up being one of many wrong determinations made by the front office. 

 

 

[TheLeviathan]

 

I won't defend the Twins Front Office evaluations of the players... they can't be defended but if you believe that Sano can play RF and I think the Twins did. 

 

The Twins are a better team with Sano and Plouffe in the lineup. 

 

Full Disclosure: I have been a consistent supporter of Sano in RF since the experiment was announced.

 

Nick stole my thunder, but Plouffe has been wildly overrated here for the last few years.  He's a perfectly acceptable player, but not the kind of guy you just have to wedge into your plans.  And he was utterly redundant in this lineup.

 

Part of your advocacy about moving him to RF is based on an idea I find very wrong-headed.  Versatility is only versatility if the guy can actually field the position competently.  Technically we could play Glen Perkins in CF and call it versatility, but it ain't the kind I'm interested in.