Article: Twins Being Overwhelmed By Underperformance

[Pitz]

Looks like there are a couple college catchers projected at the top of the draft next year. So there's that.

[TheLeviathan]

 

You may be right.

 

He's about to get some playing time in NY.

 

I'm waiting until he lands on a scrap heap somewhere before I declare it. 

 

There is a lower scrap heap than "traded straight up for John Ryan Murphy"?

[Riverbrian]

 

There is a lower scrap heap than "traded straight up for John Ryan Murphy"?

 

LOL

 

Yep... It's that scrap heap that Milone and Fein and O' Rourke and Graham just discovered.

 

BTW... Hicks batting 2nd for the Yanks tonight   

[chopper0080]

 

Look, I admire the amount of turd polishing you attempted here, but Aaron Hicks is just not good at baseball.  I'm not sure how many hundreds of at-bats you require to demonstrate this, but we're at 860.  And he's been putrid.

 

We appear to have targeted another putrid player, but let's not pretend we gave anything up.  The problem was that this was the solution to C and nothing was done to insure CF.

 

Aaron Hicks and his god awful play wouldn't have sufficed as Plan B either.

 

I believe Hicks has more to offer baseball than Mastro...

[OldTimeTwinkie]

When we drafted Hicks alot more teams wanted him as a pitcher than a position player. If we had him still how would he look as a power arm in the bullpen. We don't seem to be able to see the tree through the forest. Sharp baseball people could have done this with some vision.

[Mr. Brooks]

Look, I admire the amount of turd polishing you attempted here, but Aaron Hicks is just not good at baseball. I'm not sure how many hundreds of at-bats you require to demonstrate this, but we're at 860. And he's been putrid.

 

We appear to have targeted another putrid player, but let's not pretend we gave anything up. The problem was that this was the solution to C and nothing was done to insure CF.

 

Aaron Hicks and his god awful play wouldn't have sufficed as Plan B either.

Well 860 isn't always enough. Some players take longer than others to figure it out.

Hicks was a nearly league average hitter last year.

And, has roughly the same OPS+ as Torii had through 860 ab's.

He showed last year that he can be a good 4th ofer/fringe starter (1.2 WAR), and may not be done developing.

[USAFChief]

 

You may be right.

 

He's about to get some playing time in NY.

 

I'm waiting until he lands on a scrap heap somewhere before I declare it. 

HR #2 tonight.

[LaBombo]

 

Well 860 isn't always enough. Some players take longer than others to figure it out.
Hicks was a nearly league average hitter last year.
And, has roughly the same OPS+ as Torii had through 860 ab's.
He showed last year that he can be a good 4th ofer/fringe starter (1.2 WAR), and may not be done developing.

 

Another point in favor of Hicks as the 4th OF would have been that he's already a pretty good hitter when batting right-handed  (.257/.347/.418).    That made him a good choice to platoon with Arcia and pinch hit for him, in addition to his ability to serve as an excellent defensive sub for him.   It would also make him a good choice to spot start for Rosario occasionally against tough lefties.

[Richie the Rally Goat]

I got a laugh out of it. Puckett is my favorite player of all time, but even I admit he was getting a little tubby at the tail end of his career.

when he was wearing an eye patch?

[TheLeviathan]

 

I believe Hicks has more to offer baseball than Mastro...

 

We should hold ourselves to a slightly higher bar for CF.

Edited May 10, 2016 by TheLeviathan

[TheLeviathan]

 

Well 860 isn't always enough. Some players take longer than others to figure it out.
Hicks was a nearly league average hitter last year.
And, has roughly the same OPS+ as Torii had through 860 ab's.
He showed last year that he can be a good 4th ofer/fringe starter (1.2 WAR), and may not be done developing.

 

You know who he is a lot more like?  

 

Jason Repko.  Let's stop polishing Jason Repko into Torii Hunter.  He's still Jason Repko.  Plan B shouldn't be Jason Repko.

 

Did saying that name four times plant it firmly enough for some of you to take real stock of what Aaron Hicks actually is and not what you want him to be?

Edited May 10, 2016 by TheLeviathan

[markos]

 

Too long to quote completely...

... but I agree with basically everything. In order to compete this year, they needed the established players to hold the line, so to speak, and they needed a few of the young guys (Buxton, Sano, Berrios) to turn into superstars. So far neither is happening.

[alarp33]

You know who he is a lot more like?  

 

Jason Repko.  Let's stop polishing Jason Repko into Torii Hunter.  He's still Jason Repko.  Plan B shouldn't be Jason Repko.

 

Did saying that name four times plant it firmly enough for some of you to take real stock of what Aaron Hicks actually is and not what you want him to be?

I went to one Saints game last summer to check out the new Field, who was playing RF for the opposing team? Jason Repko.

 

That being said, Hicks is a good defender and can hit LH pitching pretty well. I think at worst he has a floor of very useful 4th OFer who starts a 2/3 times a week. Which is pretty useful, just maybe not what people here had hoped for

[TheLeviathan]

 

I went to one Saints game last summer to check out the new Field, who was playing RF for the opposing team? Jason Repko.

That being said, Hicks is a good defender and can hit LH pitching pretty well. I think at worst he has a floor of very useful 4th OFer who starts a 2/3 times a week. Which is pretty useful, just maybe not what people here had hoped for

 

I think he some value as a bench player, but his defense is overrated in CF (IMO).  He'snot good enough for a plan B for a risk like Buxton, not for me at least.

[Kwak]

 

There is a lower scrap heap than "traded straight up for John Ryan Murphy"?

Yes there is!  Traded for Hoey and "whatizname", and the grand champion:  traded for Subdurhan.

[alarp33]

I think he some value as a bench player, but his defense is overrated in CF (IMO).  He'snot good enough for a plan B for a risk like Buxton, not for me at least.

That's fair. I'd prefer him as a plan B than Danny Santana or Darin Mastroiani

[TheLeviathan]

 

That's fair. I'd prefer him as a plan B than Danny Santana or Darin Mastroiani

 

I wanted them to deal Plouffe and sign Fowler to play RF and be an option in CF. 

 

So, yeah, I agree that he's better than those two horrible options.

[tobi0040]

Looks like there are a couple college catchers projected at the top of the draft next year. So there's that.

Sign me up for Okey. Give me a catcher that can be up here in 2018.

 

I will pass on a HS CF or SS

Edited May 10, 2016 by tobi0040

[LaBombo]

 

I think he some value as a bench player, but his defense is overrated in CF (IMO).  He'snot good enough for a plan B for a risk like Buxton, not for me at least.

 

On the other hand,  Aaron Hicks was Plan A for two years running, when his floor/worst case scenario/tenth percentile projection was worse than it is now.

 

I completely agree that Hicks would have been a less-than-ideal 'break glass in case of spontaneous prospect combustion' option this year to placehold in CF if Buxton needed to brew longer.   But Hicks would also have been, at the very least, a step up fom the heady days of Clete Thomas trying to put out the fire in center field when Hicks himself flamed out in 2013.

 

And yet despite the Twins ending up turning to a worse option in Mastro again,  it's hard for me to be very down on the Twins for trading Hicks.    But it's not because I don't think they gave up a strong 4th OF candidate in Hicks.

 

No,  my reason for being ok with the Hicks trade was that it showed a realization (albeit an awfully belated one) on the part of the Twins that their faith in Suzuki as a starter was dreadfully misplaced.

 

That's how low my expectations have sunk with the Twins:   didn't like that they gave up Hicks,  didn't like who they got for him,  and yet happy about the trade because it meant that the Twins had finally realized Suzuki < MLB starter.

 

Baby steps.

Edited May 10, 2016 by LaBombo

[USAFChief]

On the other hand,  Aaron Hicks was Plan A for two years running, when his floor/worst case scenario/tenth percentile projection was worse than it is now.

 

I completely agree that Hicks would have been a less-than-ideal 'break glass in case of spontaneous prospect combustion' option this year to placehold in CF if Buxton needed to brew longer.   But Hicks would also have been, at the very least, a step up fom the heady days of Clete Thomas trying to put out the fire in center field when Hicks himself flamed out in 2013.

 

And yet despite the Twins ending up turning to a worse option in Mastro again,  it's hard for me to be very down on the Twins for trading Hicks.    But it's not because I don't think they gave up a strong 4th OF candidate in Hicks.

 

No,  my reason for being ok with the Hicks trade was that it showed a realization (albeit an awfully belated one) on the part of the Twins that their faith in Suzuki as a starter was dreadfully misplaced.

 

That's how low my expectations have sunk with the Twins:   didn't like that they gave up Hicks,  didn't like who they got for him,  and yet happy about the trade because it meant that the Twins had finally realized Suzuki < MLB starter.

 

Baby steps.

I don't think they expected Murphy to displace Suzuki as the starter.

[TheLeviathan]

On the other hand,  Aaron Hicks was Plan A for two years running, when his floor/worst case scenario/tenth percentile projection was worse than it is now.

 

I completely agree that Hicks would have been a less-than-ideal 'break glass in case of spontaneous prospect combustion' option this year to placehold in CF if Buxton needed to brew.

Baby steps.

Yeah, he might have been better than Clete Thomas or whomever, but if we are going to keep calling up raw AA center fielders we should have a much better plan B. Hicks has been putrid, again, and wouldn't be doing this team any more favors than Murphy did.

[alarp33]

 

Yeah, he might have been better than Clete Thomas or whomever, but if we are going to keep calling up raw AA center fielders we should have a much better plan B. Hicks has been putrid, again, and wouldn't be doing this team any more favors than Murphy did.

 

The Manager doesn't seem to understand platoons any better than the previous manager either, so I will agree if Hicks was here he probably wouldn't be used the way he could be valuable. 

 

IE: Since Mid-April when Arcia started receiving steady playing time, 4 of the 6 games he hasn't started has been vs Righties.  Kepler's 1 start in a week coming vs Rodon, etc. 

[tobi0040]

 

The Manager doesn't seem to understand platoons any better than the previous manager either, so I will agree if Hicks was here he probably wouldn't be used the way he could be valuable. 

 

IE: Since Mid-April when Arcia started receiving steady playing time, 4 of the 6 games he hasn't started has been vs Righties.  Kepler's 1 start in a week coming vs Rodon, etc. 

 

Yeah, we just need a new GM and manager to come in.  Take a fresh look at how things have been running.  Laugh to each other a bit.  And then find the low hanging fruit that is laying all over this franchise.  TR, Gardy, and Molitor have been stepping around it for years.

 

On a side note, Fowler would have been nice last year as a stop gap CF and corner OF as Levi points out, many of us were pounding the table for Colby Rasmus.  He has been awesome the last two years and TR loves his one year deals (1-8 last year and took the qualifying 1-16 this year).  .789 OPS last year and .830 this year in all 3 OF spots.  A slight improvement over what we have been rolling out there and he is only 29.

 

He could have been had for Hunter's salary last year, or Milone and Duensing's.  This year, Fien and Milone would have covered half of it. You know, the guys we just gave away

Edited May 10, 2016 by tobi0040

[jokin]

 

Yeah, we just need a new GM and manager to come in.  Take a fresh look at how things have been running.  Laugh to each other a bit.  And then find the low hanging fruit that is laying all over this franchise.  TR, Gardy, and Molitor have been stepping around it for years.

 

On a side note, Fowler would have been nice last year as a stop gap CF and corner OF as Levi points out, many of us were pounding the table for Colby Rasmus.  He has been awesome the last two years and TR loves his one year deals (1-8 last year and took the qualifying 1-16 this year).  .789 OPS last year and .830 this year in all 3 OF spots.  A slight improvement over what we have been rolling out there and he is only 29.

 

He could have been had for Hunter's salary last year, or Milone and Duensing's.  This year, Fien and Milone would have covered half of it. You know, the guys we just gave away

 

We still have Tommy. He's scheduled to start for Rochester tonight.

[alarp33]

 

Yeah, we just need a new GM and manager to come in.  Take a fresh look at how things have been running.  Laugh to each other a bit.  And then find the low hanging fruit that is laying all over this franchise.  TR, Gardy, and Molitor have been stepping around it for years.

 

On a side note, Fowler would have been nice last year as a stop gap CF and corner OF as Levi points out, many of us were pounding the table for Colby Rasmus.  He has been awesome the last two years and TR loves his one year deals (1-8 last year and took the qualifying 1-16 this year).  .789 OPS last year and .830 this year in all 3 OF spots.  A slight improvement over what we have been rolling out there and he is only 29.

 

He could have been had for Hunter's salary last year, or Milone and Duensing's.  This year, Fien and Milone would have covered half of it. You know, the guys we just gave away

 

I was big time pounding the table for Rasmus after the 2014 season, of course they preferred familiarity to someone who could play CF, was younger, had upside, etc.  

 

Austin Jackson got 1 year $5million, he hasn't hit much, but we all saw the defense over the weekend.  If you had traded Plouffe, Jackson is a pretty damn nice RFer and backup plan at CF.  

 

 

[jokin]

 

 

I don't think they expected Murphy to displace Suzuki as the starter.

 

I was going to do an article just before opening day, entitled:

 

" Murphy.... 54-81-100?"

 

The gist of said article was to have TD community members guess which number of games would be closest to the number of starts at Catcher for JR Murphy. At that point in time, my guess is most would have put their guess at above "81" and many more at "100", as the consensus coming out ofST seemed to be that Murphy would easily ease into the starting role by the ASG.

 

I'm thinking the organization's projection would have been between 54 and 81.

 

 

My guess would have been "just below 54". ***

 

***(I just didn't know that should have been more clearly stated as 54 starts for Rochester.)

 

 

[chopper0080]

 

We should hold ourselves to a slightly higher bar for CF.

 

Hicks as a backup plan if Buxton fails is a higher bar than trading away your young, struggling depth.  Elevating players who aren't ready, and then turning to Mastro when it fails, that is a window into the organization's overall failure.

 

I'm not saying that Hicks is ever going to be a viable MLB player.  But when you are rebuilding, having young athletic players to backup young athletic players is a formula for success.  You never know when or if athletic talent will take off in MLB, why trade it for a more limited player who hasn't shown anything.

[TheLeviathan]

 

Hicks as a backup plan if Buxton fails is a higher bar than trading away your young, struggling depth.  Elevating players who aren't ready, and then turning to Mastro when it fails, that is a window into the organization's overall failure.

 

I'm not saying that Hicks is ever going to be a viable MLB player.  But when you are rebuilding, having young athletic players to backup young athletic players is a formula for success.  You never know when or if athletic talent will take off in MLB, why trade it for a more limited player who hasn't shown anything.

 

If that's the extent of your bar for backup plans than you must have liked Danny Santana and Jordan Schafer?

 

I guess my bar is "be at least competent baseball players" - of which we've had no one who qualifies for about 5 or 6 years now.  And Aaron Hicks would've been no different.

[USAFChief]

 

If that's the extent of your bar for backup plans than you must have liked Danny Santana and Jordan Schafer?

 

I guess my bar is "be at least competent baseball players" - of which we've had no one who qualifies for about 5 or 6 years now.  And Aaron Hicks would've been no different.

Aaron Hicks had virtually a league average bat last year (97 OPS+) in 390 PAs, with enough defensive ability to play CF, at age 25, and trending up with the bat.

 

That isn't "at least competent?"

 

Is it possible you're letting your opinion of him influence your analysis?

[Otto von Ballpark]

FWIW, Hicks hit his second HR last night, and added a sac fly in a Yankees win. He has basically doubled his OPS the past week, although it is still poor, he has put some distance between himself and Murphy in their "competition".

 

Although I suppose Murphy has shortened the distance too, in a way, by moving to Rochester.