Ricky Implies He Won't Go Quietly to the Pen

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

I recall a tweet he sent after the 2014 season where he said he wished he was still in LA (so do we Ricky, so do we)... started off 2015 by booing back at the fans during Opening Day lineup introductions... 

Yep and yep. You just listed why I don't like Nolasco.

 

But it's easy to misread these kinds of things. Maybe Nolasco is just a bit dense and doesn't realize the impact of what he's saying in the moment. Maybe he's a fierce competitor who doesn't take criticism well and reacts emotionally.

 

Those don't necessarily make him a clubhouse problem, they just mean he's kind of a petty jerk. It doesn't automatically mean he acts the same way around his teammates.

 

It's easy to conflate the fan perspective with the clubhouse perspective. Sports history is littered with public jerks who endeared themselves to their teammates because a man's public face does not necessarily reflect his private face.

[alarp33]

 

Yep and yep. You just listed why I don't like Nolasco.

 

But it's easy to misread these kinds of things. Maybe Nolasco is just a bit dense and doesn't realize the impact of what he's saying. Maybe he's a fierce competitor who doesn't take criticism well and reacts emotionally.

 

Those don't necessarily make him a clubhouse problem, they just mean he's kind of a petty jerk. It doesn't automatically mean he acts the same way around his teammates.

 

It's too easy to conflate the fan perspective with the clubhouse perspective.

 

I agree with you, none of us are in the clubhouse, and have no idea.  That is the perception he gives off, couple some isolated incidents like that with his recent agent comments, and I don't see a happy ending to this.  

[Willihammer]

 

Yep and yep. You just listed why I don't like Nolasco.

 

But it's easy to misread these kinds of things. Maybe Nolasco is just a bit dense and doesn't realize the impact of what he's saying in the moment. Maybe he's a fierce competitor who doesn't take criticism well and reacts emotionally.

 

Those don't necessarily make him a clubhouse problem, they just mean he's kind of a petty jerk. It doesn't automatically mean he acts the same way around his teammates.

 

It's easy to conflate the fan perspective with the clubhouse perspective. Sports history is littered with public jerks who endeared themselves to their teammates because a man's public face does not necessarily reflect his private face.

How's this for a misreading. Nolasco approached his agent, Sosnick, about going to bat for him with the Twins and his starting job. Sosnick, who reportedly has an excellent working relationship with the twins, used Doogie's question to get in front of the possibility, and make clear to Ricky and the Twins, that any complaining about roles would be done by Ricky directly.

 

But, that's way out there conjecture-wise. I agree we'll probably never know exactly what kind of person Ricky's like. And of course there is plenty of time for Ricky to change his tune and make the best of whatever circumstance he finds himself in this year.

[Otto von Ballpark]

Forget a real contender for now... If you are GM of a team like the Atlanta Braves - clearly in a rebuild, have shown a knack recently for shrewd trades (mainly by just picking on Dave Stewart)... would you trade for Nolasco if the Twins picked up all but $8 million over the 2 years, and put him in your rotation? He pitches terribly or gets hurt, you are out $8 million. BUT, if he is finally healthy, gets some guys out in the NL... you might have a pretty damn good deadline trade piece.

 

I think I would do that if I were in their shoes.

They didn't do it for Edwin Jackson.

 

If the Twins want to unload Nolasco that badly, there is probably something wrong with him, he will probably get released or go to long relief, and his value will be virtually zero in a month or two. Why spend $8 mil on it now?

 

And if it was at all likely Nolasco would be a "damn good" deadline piece, the Twins wouldn't be that desperate to unload him at those terms right now.

[BK432]

 

I don't know if any team would ever really do this but what if you have a starter 5a and 5b so to speak.  If one of these guys are going to the pen if they don't make the rotation why not just piggy back them every 5th start.  Have Nolasco start and go through the lineup 2 times then have Milone/Duffy come in for the next 2 times through.  Considering pitchers generally struggle more on the 3rd time through that would limit their exposure to getting rocked.

 

This (and related ideas) are worth a whole other thread, but I do believe that teams will start to look at how the build pitching staffs in the next 3-5 years and there will be some changes. I don't think your idea is crazy - it's not the way I would do it, but it's an option.

 

Especially if in the next CBA they get an extra roster spot or two (or taxi squads) I think you may start to see smaller rotations, more frequent starts for SPs but less pitches and bigger bullpens. We shall see.

[alarp33]

 

They didn't do it for Edwin Jackson.

If the Twins want to unload Nolasco that badly, there is probably something wrong with him, he will probably get released or go to long relief, and his value will be virtually zero in a month or two. Why spend $8 mil on it now?

And if it was at all likely Nolasco would be a "damn good" deadline piece, the Twins wouldn't be that desperate to unload him at those terms right now.

 

What does Edwin Jackson have to do with this? They aren't the same player, Braves hadn't gone to a full out rebuild by then, anyways. 

 

I'm not following your 2nd paragraph? Because spending $8 million now is better than spending $12 million in a month or two, and having him pitch terribly doesn't exactly help the team win games?

 

I never said it was "likely", so I'm not sure where you got that from. I said its an outside the box idea, a gamble by a team like the Braves.  

 

[tobi0040]

 

Forget a real contender for now... If you are GM of a team like the Atlanta Braves - clearly in a rebuild, have shown a knack recently for shrewd trades (mainly by just picking on Dave Stewart)... would you trade for Nolasco if the Twins picked up all but $8 million over the 2 years, and put him in your rotation?  He pitches terribly or gets hurt, you are out $8 million.  BUT, if he is finally healthy, gets some guys out in the NL... you might have a pretty damn good deadline trade piece. 

 

I think I would do that if I were in their shoes. 

 

Teams like the Braves want young upside guys to get reps.  That is the smart play, not a middling 30 something with an recent awful track record.

 

Plus, they already have Teheran, Bud Norris, Kyle Kendrick in the rotation.  They want Manny Banuelos to get innings.  And their #2 and #3 prospects are close with tons of upside.  They came over in the Simmons and Miller trades.

 

Sean Newcomb is their #2 and finished at AA last year.  Crazy 2.38 ERA and 168 k's in 136 IP.   #3 is Aaron Blair, knocking on the door in AAA

[alarp33]

 

Teams like the Braves want young upside guys to get reps.  That is the smart play, not a middling 30 something with an recent awful track record.

 

Plus, they already have Teheran, Bud Norris, Kyle Kendrick in the rotation.  They want Manny Banuelos to get innings.  And their #2 and #3 prospects are close with tons of upside.  They came over in the Simmons and Miller trades.

 

Sean Newcomb is their #2 and finished at AA last year.  Crazy 2.38 ERA and 168 k's in 136 IP.   #3 is Aaron Blair, knocking on the door in AAA

 

Bud Norris??  I'll take any perceived upside from Nolasco over Norris, however small both may be.  

 

Newcombe and Blair likely won't start the season in the Majors though... 

 

Just trying to think outside the box, I could potentially see a team like the Braves taking a gamble for a small amount of money on something like that.  

[Sam Morley]

 

For good or bad, the Twins don't like the idea of paying a player to pitch for another team. It's not out of the realm of possibility but it's unlikely.

 

 

They should like it, especially if that player is Ricky Nolasco, and he's pitching for Detroit, Cleveland, KC, or Chicago.

 

[Otto von Ballpark]

What does Edwin Jackson have to do with this? They aren't the same player, Braves hadn't gone to a full out rebuild by then, anyways.

 

I'm not following your 2nd paragraph? Because spending $8 million now is better than spending $12 million in a month or two, and having him pitch terribly doesn't exactly help the team win games?

 

I never said it was "likely", so I'm not sure where you got that from. I said its an outside the box idea, a gamble by a team like the Braves.

Edwin Jackson was in a similar situation last spring, and I am sure Cubs fans made a lot of similar suggestions to yours, that is all. Maybe it wasn't the Braves, although they dealt Kimbrel around opening day last year, but there are always rebuilding teams around. Interestingly, the Braves did eventually pick up Jackson last year... after the Cubs released him in July. They were in no rush to add him as an $8 mil long shot gamble in March

 

If the Braves don't pick up Nolasco for $8 mil now, he will be the Twins long reliever and/or get released. Then he will be available to the Braves for the prorated portion of the minimum salary. When a guy's value is as low as Nolasco's right now, or Jackson's last spring, and falling, teams generally aren't in a rush to buy the guy before the value hits zero, unless they also get another piece in the deal (like the Diamondbacks sending a prospect with Arroyo to the Braves last year).

 

Your Braves scenario is about as unlikely as Nolasco earning his $12 mil paycheck with the Twins, which you have all but dismissed as a possibility.

[gocgo]

I could see us being able to trade Ricky, but we'll probably have to pick up half of the salary.  There are plenty of teams out there that will be willing to pay $12.5 for two years for an experienced starter.  At this point, I'd take it if I were the Twins.  A chance to recoup half of a bad contract for the next 2 years for a guy that really doesn't fit?  Take it.

[Otto von Ballpark]

Bud Norris?? I'll take any perceived upside from Nolasco over Norris, however small both may be.

 

Norris is younger, and had a 108 ERA+ as recently as 2014. And he signed for 1 year, $2.5 mil.

 

Guys like that are exactly why teams aren't eager to help the Twins and take Nolasco off their hands for 2/8 in March.

[sane16]

Send Ricky to the bullpen!
Maybe he will buy out his own contract in order to escape.
Then the Twins will be off the hook.

[Blake]

 

And that's a possibility but I think people are overreacting to the text message. Yeah, it looks bad - and it reinforces my general dislike of Nolasco - but as far as "clubhouse problems" go, it barely moves the needle.

 

Maybe Nolasco apologizes tomorrow and accepts a bullpen role. Maybe he was frustrated in the moment, said something stupid to his agent, and this "problem" vanishes within the week.

 

Or maybe he's a jerk and becomes a legitimate problem. Time will tell. It's the type of decision that needs to be made internally, not based on a single text message that didn't originate from the player himself.

 

I have to wonder at the thought process of the agent and Nolasco, putting out this kind of information. It's not like Nolasco has pitched so well that teams will be falling all over themselves to sign him to his next contract. And I cannot think this will help down the road, should Mr. Nolasco manage to do a better job this year.

 

Frankly, the whole things seems rather bizarre.

 

[alarp33]

 

Your Braves scenario is about as unlikely as Nolasco earning his $12 mil paycheck with the Twins, which you have all but dismissed as a possibility.

 

You are putting a lot of words in my mouth, which doesn't really help any rational discussion.

 

I never said my Braves scenario had any bit of likeliness attached to it. I threw a hypothetical on a message board out there. I also never "dismissed the possibility" that the Twins would end up paying Nolasco his full $12 million this year.  

 

I said what I would do/ try to do. I'm not the GM... I think it is possible they could trade him by picking up a large chunk of the salary, that is all.  

[tobi0040]

I am just going to assume that we have   dangled Ricky to every team probaly a few times. If he was a free agent he would likely get a minor league deal.  Therefore, we are kidding ourselves to think anyone will take salary back

[Linus]

My prediction is that Ricky out pitches Duffy this spring and Duffy ends up in the pen or starting at AAA.

[nicksaviking]

The Twins did seem to deal with this last year with Pelfrey, who only got his starting spot because of the Santana suspension. Pelfrey took the job and was OK last year which is exactly what I'm worried about here. I don't want a just "OK" Nolasco taking away a spot from a young guy with more promise. Still, the positive take is that Ryan didn't appear to be swayed by Pelfrey grousing, he was all but inked into the bullpen prior to the suspension.

 

And that wasn't the first time that happened. In 2011 Kevin Slowey made a big stink about the idea of going to the pen. At that time, Slowey's complaints also had no effect and he too was banished to the pen. Of course in this case Slowey appeared to have been bumped because the Twins still wanted to get their money out of Nick Blackburn despite his historically awful 2010 season.

 

I don't know. The money likely is a factor, but I also have a strong sense that Ryan does not like to be told what to do by someone who's not paying his salary. I half suspect an implied ultimatum like this might be counter-effective. Ryan's not going to like the perception, even if unfounded, that the players can turn the screws on him. This particularly if Nolasco truly is viewed as a malcontent within the organization. I think this was a dumb move, at least dumb in the sense that the agent shouldn't have told Doogie and made it public.

[gocgo]

What about the possibility of starting out with Nolasco in the rotation over Berrios and Duffy strictly for the purpose of showcasing him in order to trade him?  Once we are into June, trade him and bring up Berrios or move Duffy/May from the BP into the rotation.  Let's face it.  No one is going to give us a bag of salted nuts for him now (unsalted maybe).  Roll the dice and showcase Nolasco.  If he performs well, trade him.  If not, demote him.

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

I think this was a dumb move, at least dumb in the sense that the agent shouldn't have told Doogie and made it public.

It was a very stupid move. The player has absolutely nothing to gain with this statement while it has the downside of creating ill-will between everyone involved, including the fans.

 

Few fans in Minnesota like Nolasco. He has no leverage in this situation. If he wants to voice an opinion, he needs to do it in private because no one is going to support him publicly. No one.

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

What about the possibility of starting out with Nolasco in the rotation over Berrios and Duffy strictly for the purpose of showcasing him in order to trade him?

I think both Ryan and Molitor are more interested in winning ballgames than showcasing a player for trade.

[Linus]

The Twins did seem to deal with this last year with Pelfrey, who only got his starting spot because of the Santana suspension. Pelfrey took the job and was OK last year which is exactly what I'm worried about here. I don't want a just "OK" Nolasco taking away a spot from a young guy with more promise. Still, the positive take is that Ryan didn't appear to be swayed by Pelfrey grousing, he was all but inked into the bullpen prior to the suspension.

 

And that wasn't the first time that happened. In 2011 Kevin Slowey made a big stink about the idea of going to the pen. At that time, Slowey's complaints also had no effect and he too was banished to the pen. Of course in this case Slowey appeared to have been bumped because the Twins still wanted to get their money out of Nick Blackburn despite his historically awful 2010 season.

 

I don't know. The money likely is a factor, but I also have a strong sense that Ryan does not like to be told what to do by someone who's not paying his salary. I half suspect an implied ultimatum like this might be counter-effective. Ryan's not going to like the perception, even if unfounded, that the players can turn the screws on him. This particularly if Nolasco truly is viewed as a malcontent within the organization. I think this was a dumb move, at least dumb in the sense that the agent shouldn't have told Doogie and made it public.

This. TR believes strongly in being a stand up guy. This was not a stand up move and I'm sure Ryan doesn't appreciate it. Ricky would be a bad poker player - he has no cards and is going all in.

[tobi0040]

 

My prediction is that Ricky out pitches Duffy this spring and Duffy ends up in the pen or starting at AAA.

 

I think you maybe assuming it is a race on even footing.  I think Nolasco has to outpitch him by a wide margin

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

I think you maybe assuming it is a race on even footing.  I think Nolasco has to outpitch him by a wide margin

My thoughts as well. Nolasco needs to be lights-out and/or Duffey needs to implode.

 

I think Ricky needs to drastically out-pitch Milone as well. He's on the outside looking in no matter how you frame the conversation.

[Boom Boom]

Or Nolasco has a leg up on Duffey because the Twins don't want to fold on the big contract. They can also send Duffey to the minors.

 

I know what Mollie and TR said... but the manager doesn't get to make that decision, and I only believe what TR says when I see it for myself.

[Thrylos]

 

Technically Nolasco could refuse a minor league assignment and opt for free agency, nullifying his contract, but there is no way he would do that, since he can simply refuse and stay on the MLB roster and force the team to release him.

 

 

Nope. He is a 5+ year veteran thus has the right to refuse that assignment.  Then if the Twins don't want him, they can release him and have to pay the full contract $.

[Brock Beauchamp]

Or Nolasco has a leg up on Duffey because the Twins don't want to fold on the big contract. They can also send Duffey to the minors.

 

I know what Mollie and TR said... but the manager doesn't get to make that decision, and I only believe what TR says when I see it for myself.

The manager doesn't get final say over who makes the roster but he does have final say over which players play and how often.

 

And it's highly unlikely Duffey doesn't make the roster, which gives Molitor final say over where/when he pitches.

 

Everybody wants to win and I can't see a situation where Ryan asks Paul to play an inferior player so he can build trade deadline value.

[tobi0040]

 

The manager doesn't get final say over who makes the roster but he does have final say over which players play and how often.

And it's highly unlikely Duffey doesn't make the roster, which gives Molitor final say over where/when he pitches.

Everybody wants to win and I can't see a situation where Ryan asks Paul to play an inferior player so he can build trade deadline value.

 

This does come up a lot, but in fairness we simply don't know the inner politics/decisions for the Twins. In theory that is how it works.  The GM says these are your 25 guys and the manager plays them where he sees fit.  But I have long suspected Terry Ryan plays a bigger role than that.

 

My personal opinion is that when Gardy was let go and we were looking at managers, internal candidates such as Molitor and Doug M. were more likely because they were more likely to let Terry have his way on such decisions, versus say a Joe Madden who we never contacted.

 

A few examples are Sano to RF or May to the pen.  Sano was going to make the roster obviously and in theory Paul made the call.  I just think the reality it was at a minimum more of a joint discussion.

 

I totally understand that we have no way of solving this.  Hopefully we can all agree that we don't know for sure how these decisions are made.

 

 

[Otto von Ballpark]

 

You are putting a lot of words in my mouth, which doesn't really help any rational discussion.

 

I never said my Braves scenario had any bit of likeliness attached to it. I threw a hypothetical on a message board out there. I also never "dismissed the possibility" that the Twins would end up paying Nolasco his full $12 million this year.  

 

I said what I would do/ try to do. I'm not the GM... I think it is possible they could trade him by picking up a large chunk of the salary, that is all.  

Not trying to put words into your mouth.  I think maybe I'm just not coming through clearly.

 

If he's worth the ~$8 mil risk for the Braves, the Twins would just as well hold on to him -- they're only risking the same ~$8 mil anyway if they view $18 mil as unrecoverable (which is what it would mean to ship him out with $18 mil attached).

 

I'll drop it, I think we've both had our say.

[Otto von Ballpark]

 

Nope. He is a 5+ year veteran thus has the right to refuse that assignment.  Then if the Twins don't want him, they can release him and have to pay the full contract $.

That's exactly what I said -- he can refuse the assignment.

 

However, after he has refused the assignment, he technically has the additional option to elect free agency and forfeit his salary.  He obviously wouldn't choose to do that because of the money, but it is technically an option for him.  If he doesn't elect free agency, he remains on the Twins 25-man roster until we release him, collecting his full salary.

 

See here:

http://www.thecubreporter.com/book/export/html/3531

 

 

Per Article XIX-A of the CBA, any player on an MLB 40-man roster who has accrued at least five years of MLB Service Time (as well as an international player with Article XIX-A contractual rights) has the right to refuse an Outright Assignment to the minors, or the player can elect to be a free-agent immediately upon being outrighted, or he can accept the Outright Assignment and defer his option to elect free-agency until after the conclusion of the MLB regular season.

 

I'm guessing no one has ever actually elected free agency in such a scenario, but it is technically an option.