Changes to rule(s) pertaining to breaking up the DP

[Paul Pleiss]

 

At some point "tough" became synonymous with dirty and cowardly in baseball.

I'm all for toughness, but baseball left that behind years ago. Now it's just phony nonsense.

Please elaborate how it's phony nonsense.

[TheLeviathan]

Please elaborate how it's phony nonsense.

How does karate kicking a prone infielder make you tough? How does throwing at someone's head for some alleged slight make you tough?

[tobi0040]

 

How does karate kicking a prone infielder make you tough? How does throwing at someone's head for some alleged slight make you tough?

 

Not sure.  But the toughest guy on the football field is the guy that drills the punter right after he punts.

[TheLeviathan]

 

Not sure.  But the toughest guy on the football field is the guy that drills the punter right after he punts.

 

Never have I heard that.  Ever.  Not even in jest.  Guys are taught against that because punters are protected and the penalties are harsh even for the slightest bump.

 

There are most definitely shady practices in all sports (football has more than a few, Talib was putting on a demonstration of them in the Super Bowl for instance) but at least in football you are starting from a point of physical play.  

 

The takeout slide is ridiculously ineffective at anything but hurting people.  There is nothing "tough" about it.  It's a dirty play and should be penalized as such, not encouraged as part of how you play the game.

[tobi0040]

 

Never have I heard that.  Ever.  Not even in jest.  Guys are taught against that because punters are protected and the penalties are harsh even for the slightest bump.

 

There are most definitely shady practices in all sports (football has more than a few, Talib was putting on a demonstration of them in the Super Bowl for instance) but at least in football you are starting from a point of physical play.  

 

The takeout slide is ridiculously ineffective at anything but hurting people.  There is nothing "tough" about it.  It's a dirty play and should be penalized as such, not encouraged as part of how you play the game.

 

The punter thing was a joke.  Vulnerable punter.....A second baseman standing there has to catch, jump, turn, and throw and is taken out.  Somewhat similar, albeit a little extreme

[TheLeviathan]

 

The punter thing was a joke.  Vulnerable punter.....A second baseman standing there has to catch, jump, turn, and throw and is taken out.  Somewhat similar, albeit a little extreme

 

Ah, it's hard sometimes to keep track of who is actually defending this stuff.  It is similar though, it's taking out someone defenseless with no net-gain to anyone if you do.  Baseball, at least, has finally caught up to penalizing that sort of thing.

[gunnarthor]

 

Please elaborate how it's phony nonsense.

Clearly, it's not.  Some people prefer baseball a certain way, others don't.  Levi gets a little worked up over this.  Others are less concerned.  It doesn't really matter.  What this thread was aimed to discuss - getting rid of the Utley slide - isn't likely to significantly change the way the game is played but, again, we'll have to see how it's enforced.  

[TheLeviathan]

 

Clearly, it's not.  Some people prefer baseball a certain way, others don't.  Levi gets a little worked up over this.  Others are less concerned.  It doesn't really matter.  What this thread was aimed to discuss - getting rid of the Utley slide - isn't likely to significantly change the way the game is played but, again, we'll have to see how it's enforced.  

 

I prefer things that largely only result in player injuries being eliminated.  I'd say it matters a lot that guys get hurt every year doing something not even close to a normal slide with the intent of hurting each other.  

 

I stopped playing baseball as a kid, but never was I taught that a flying leg kick was part of a normal slide.  You do that to hurt someone, not play baseball.

[gunnarthor]

 

I prefer things that largely only result in player injuries being eliminated.  I'd say it matters a lot that guys get hurt every year doing something not even close to a normal slide with the intent of hurting each other.  

 

I stopped playing baseball as a kid, but never was I taught that a flying leg kick was part of a normal slide.  You do that to hurt someone, not play baseball.

Again, clearly, this is something very emotional to you while others don't care as much.  I'm not sure this thread needed to be hijacked into accusations against head hunting, phony toughness and what-not.  We'll see how the rule is enforced and complain/applaud at that time.  The other commentary was not really needed.  

[TheLeviathan]

You're welcome to explain to all of us why Kang's broken leg serves to better baseball.  Or Justin Morneau's concussion.  Or any of the other injuries sustained by this practice.  

 

I, for one, like any sport that takes unnecessary injury out of the game by policing basic decency in the players.

[REPETE]

 

Again, clearly, this is something very emotional to you while others don't care as much.  I'm not sure this thread needed to be hijacked into accusations against head hunting, phony toughness and what-not.  We'll see how the rule is enforced and complain/applaud at that time.  The other commentary was not really needed.  

with any new rule, the enforcement is always the biggest concern.  The "Intention" of a new rule is what often gets lost in the enforcement.  Some umpires may take take it to the extreme, and start calling interference whenever there's ANY contact.  We know that early on, MLB Network will have a lot of discussion on what is considered a good, clean, HARD slide, when the first, close, interference is called.    

 

I have always hated the hard, rolling takeout slide where the player had absolutely no chance of ever touching 2nd base, and could never understand how that was considered legal, according to the existing rules.  I'm fine with a hard slide into the base on a close play at 2nd, but my concern is overzealous umpires.  Personally, I don't think we needed a new rule, but rather, just a clarification of the existing rule, much like MLB stated years ago, "we're going to have umpires start calling balls & strikes according to the rule book".  As mentioned many times before, only time will tell.  

[TheLeviathan]

The new rule is necessary when players have been allowed to fudge it for decades under the false pretense of being tough. It's been allowed to evolve into the nonsense of today, as all these things are when we use phony justifications to let real rules get blurred by unwritten ones.

[gunnarthor]

 

The new rule is necessary when players have been allowed to fudge it for decades under the false pretense of being tough. It's been allowed to evolve into the nonsense of today, as all these things are when we use phony justifications to let real rules get blurred by unwritten ones.

Seriously Dave?  Everyone got it the first 15 times you claimed baseball players were false phony tough guys.  The horse is dead.  Put the stick down.  Relax.  Baseball games start soon.  

[TheLeviathan]

 

Seriously Dave?  Everyone got it the first 15 times you claimed baseball players were false phony tough guys.  The horse is dead.  Put the stick down.  Relax.  Baseball games start soon.  

 

The problem is the horse I'm beating just doesn't get it.  If you're going to argue the rule is unnecessary, then look at where the problem started.  

[USAFChief]

 

The problem is the horse I'm beating just doesn't get it.  

Then by all means, keep beating it.  Harder.  Perhaps this will be the first dead horse in history to change it's mind.

[TheLeviathan]

That's the plan.

[h2oface]

Looks like Dozier doesn't like the new rule regarding stepping on the bag. Form an article on MLB.com 

Twins site.......

"Dozier, who started his career as a shortstop before moving to second base in 2013, said he's in favor of the rule that forces players to make a "bona fide slide" into second base, but he believes that reviews to make sure middle infielders touch second base while turning double plays is against the spirit of the original rule."

 

What? touching the base on a force out is against the spirit of the rule.... even the rules before this new one? What? NOT touching the base and getting an out.... that is what is against the spirit of the rules. 
 

[jctwins]

I was listening to the conversation during the radio broadcast today about the rules at second base, and how it will force the fielder to keep his foot down longer, which in a sense adds to the risk to the player that they are trying to protect.

 

Why wouldn't it be feasible to add a fielder's bag at second, not unlike what lower levels do at first base? It could be very small, but a protected square for the fielder's foot. You slide directly into it, you're ejected. It still allows the legit slide into the primary bag, with the body to do the takeout, but adds a little time for a reaction.

[USAFChief]

It took until day 3 of the season for this to come into play, and in a big way.

 

Toronto apparently scored two runs on a botched DP try by TB to take a 4-3 lead in the ninth. That is, until reply officials ruled Bautista's over slide and/or grab at second of the secondbaseman's leg to be in violation, and called both he and the batter out, ending the game 3-2 Tampa.

 

I'm sure you can find the replay. I think it was the right call.

 

Oh, and if you can find it, watch Harold Reynolds "explaining" the play on MLB Network. Just take 1000 mg of ibuprofen before you do, because Harold is going to make your head hurt trying to follow his logic.

[Otto von Ballpark]

The new rule was also invoked a few days ago (without replay) in a Nationals-Braves game too, although in a less important situation:

 

http://m.mlb.com/video/v572697283/wshatl-murphy-knocked-down-nats-awarded-two-outs/?game_pk=446879

 

Good call, as the runner clearly over-slid the base.

[Otto von Ballpark]

Here's the link to the video of the Toronto-Tampa play:

 

http://m.mlb.com/video/topic/6479266/v574646983/tor-tb-rays-awarded-dp-after-slide-rule-violation

 

An overslide AND a rather egregious leg grab.  I'm not even sure they needed to apply the new rule here, I think grabbing a fielder's foot was textbook interference before the new rule too.

[gunnarthor]

Wow, I think the Jays fans are right to be pissed (Atlanta fans, too).  If that's the new rule, we're a lot closer to the Japanese version of the game than I thought.  We'll see how umps are dealing with this in a few weeks but if this indicative of the how the new rule will affect games, that's pretty bad.

[USAFChief]

Here's the link to the video of the Toronto-Tampa play:

 

http://m.mlb.com/video/topic/6479266/v574646983/tor-tb-rays-awarded-dp-after-slide-rule-violation

 

An overslide AND a rather egregious leg grab.  I'm not even sure they needed to apply the new rule here, I think grabbing a fielder's foot was textbook interference before the new rule too.

Concur. That leg grab was interference last year, and 50 years ago. Sort of the exact definition of interference.

 

The only difference now is replay, an emphasis on the play at second, and willingness to call it.

[USAFChief]

As an aside, I wish the TB second baseman had gone back on the field after the call, paused to watch the Toronto bench for 10 seconds with a smirk on his face, threw his glove 20 feet in the air, and then slowly jogged back to his dugout.

 

You know...had "fun."

[ashbury]

Here's the link to the video of the Toronto-Tampa play:

 

http://m.mlb.com/video/topic/6479266/v574646983/tor-tb-rays-awarded-dp-after-slide-rule-violation

 

An overslide AND a rather egregious leg grab.  I'm not even sure they needed to apply the new rule here, I think grabbing a fielder's foot was textbook interference before the new rule too.

I'm not in favor of middle infielders getting broken legs, but man, takeout slides are part of the game. It's going to take me a while to get used to this new sport they are calling baseball.

[gunnarthor]

 

As an aside, I wish the TB second baseman had gone back on the field after the call, paused to watch the Toronto bench for 10 seconds with a smirk on his face, threw his glove 20 feet in the air, and then slowly jogged back to his dugout.

You know...had "fun."

I think that would be perfectly fine so long as Toronto was able to have "fun" the next game.  :-)

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

The new rule was also invoked a few days ago (without replay) in a Nationals-Braves game too, although in a less important situation:

 

http://m.mlb.com/video/v572697283/wshatl-murphy-knocked-down-nats-awarded-two-outs/?game_pk=446879

 

Good call, as the runner clearly over-slid the base.

Wow.

 

They are calling this extremely tight. I'm really not sure how I feel about this one. And I definitely don't want to see middle infielders turning into finger pointers like Murphy did.

[Mike Sixel]

Ya, he clearly reached out and grabbed the second baseman's leg there. That was just plain and simple interference, and had nothing to do with the new rule. Now, maybe w/o the new rule, he tries a different way to take out the player, and the new rule actually worked.....

[TheLeviathan]

Wait, you mean now we're going to play baseball like we do when we're 15?

 

I don't understand how the same people that want no celebrations in the game also want us to play it like it's the Thunderdome version of hte sport where broken legs are par for the course.  You know what this looks like?  Baseball when you're a kid.  When you're not deliberately trying to hurt each other but just, you know, have fun and play baseball.

 

Good for us all.

[tobi0040]

This is a non story.  Grabbing the guys leg should have been called a year ago.