Article: The Twins' Cheapness Isn't The Problem; It's The Symptom

[alarp33]

 

I think I've had this argument with you before so I am not going to have it again. Looking at your signature quote you have your mind made up. I'm sorry you feel that way. By the way, Theo's degree is in American Studies.

 

We haven't, but that's fair enough.  I don't expect you to be critical of your employer.  

 

My mind has been made up over 19 years of results, I'm not making some snap judgement on someone who is new to the job.  

 

As for my signature, he said it, not me. 

Edited February 25, 2016 by alarp33

[Jack Goin]

 

Thanks for the response, Mr. Goin.

 

Bill Smith had 20 years in baseball ops too when he took over as GM, and 24 years experience when he was subsequently removed from that role.

 

In 2010, 15 years into Rob Antony's Twins baseball ops tenure (having become Director of Baseball Operations in 1995, before replacing Smith as assistant GM in 2007), when asked if he "were going to sign a free agent, would he go after the guy with a higher RBI total or slugging percentage, Antony replied that he would prefer the player with the higher RBI total." http://www.startribune.com/where-traditional-scouting-and-statistical-analysis-intersect/88615982/

 

Then in 2014, Antony was the acting GM during the Bartlett and Kubel reunion, featuring Dave St Peter's infamous tweet of amazement "at focus on 25th man on the roster", followed 3 weeks later by the sudden retirement of the club's interesting choice for said 25th man.

 

I am sure they are great people and hard workers who have done a lot of great things for Twins baseball behind the scenes, but you have to forgive me if I am skeptical about their ability to head the baseball side of the organization (again) in a post-TR world.

I realize I can't win any arguments in these forums or even change anyone's mind for that matter. Thanks for being passionate about Twins baseball. 

 

[bird]

 

You can care, and try, but it is a scale, right? Not an on/off switch, it is a more like a dial. How far are they willing to turn the dial to 11, instead of 6, when they have a real chance to win?

 

 

The care and the try dials have absolutely nothing to do with it. Go to the operational philosophy buttons, the business disciplines buttons, the corporate culture buttons...

[Mike Sixel]

 

I realize I can't win any arguments in these forums or even change anyone's mind for that matter. Thanks for being passionate about Twins baseball. 

 

You actually have made me different here.....even if we don't likely agree on everything. 

[Mike Sixel]

 

The care and the try dials have absolutely nothing to do with it. Go to the operational philosophy buttons, the business disciplines buttons, the corporate culture buttons...

 

Whichever dials we want to look at, I'm not convinced they are turned to 11 when they should be, just based on what little data we have from the outside.....

[Otto von Ballpark]

 

I realize I can't win any arguments in these forums or even change anyone's mind for that matter. Thanks for being passionate about Twins baseball. 

That's the beauty of the internet -- nobody wins.

 

Thanks for doing your best to help Twins baseball from the inside.  I have a blast talking about the team, even when I'm complaining.

 

Oh, and thanks for chiming in here, of course. It's fun.

Edited February 25, 2016 by spycake

[bird]

 

Whichever dials we want to look at, I'm not convinced they are turned to 11 when they should be, just based on what little data we have from the outside.....

  no disagreement here

[bird]

 

Wow, I must admit, I didn't even know Yale offered such a thing.  

Well, they DIDN'T back in the 30's when you and I went to college. 

 

That's why I enrolled at Inver Grove Community College instead. 

Edited February 25, 2016 by birdwatcher

[USAFChief]

 

Well, they DIDN'T back in the 30's when you and I went to college. 

 

That's why I enrolled at Inver Grove Community College instead. 

And I look back fondly on my four years at Willmar State Junior College.

[The Wise One]

 

Just to be clear, I'm not saying the Twins should have traded Trevor Plouffe. However, every indication we've gotten from the club, and by rumor hounds around the league, is that they never even put him on the market to see what was available. They made the decision going into the offseason not even to look. And that's what's inexcusable.

Show your work. What is your proof they had no discussions with anyone. What GM talks about people they want to trade before it happens. Is it totally unreasonable to think that a GM would keep quiet about shopping a player. Since you think he should have been traded or shopped, what team did you expect him to go to? The team called idunno?

[USAFChief]

Show your work. What is your proof they had no discussions with anyone. What GM talks about people they want to trade before it happens. Is it totally unreasonable to think that a GM would keep quiet about shopping a player. Since you think he should have been traded or shopped, what team did you expect him to go to? The team called idunno?

He "showed" his work: "every indication from the club," and a lack of traffic from "rumor hounds."

 

Now, that's not definitive, but that was the evidence cited. Often, trades do come out of nowhere, but perhaps just as often, there's speculation on sites like MLBTradeRumors for days or weeks before a trade happens. So I think it's fair for someone to take a lack of such speculation, coupled with statements from the club, as an indication.

 

Fair to disagree, as well, but certainly not reason to attack another poster for his interpretation.

[The Wise One]

 

He "showed" his work: "every indication from the club," and a lack of traffic from "rumor hounds."

Now, that's not definitive, but that was the evidence cited. Often, trades do come out of nowhere, but perhaps just as often, there's speculation on sites like MLBTradeRumors for days or weeks before a trade happens. So I think it's fair for someone to take a lack of such speculation, coupled with statements from the club, as an indication.

Fair to disagree, as well, but certainly not reason to attack another poster for his interpretation.

How many times is there a rumor on there about a Twin's player being traded?  Around deadline time there is speculation. Not so much in the off season. The last two trades of regular position players were Span and Revere. Not much of a peep before they happened. Please  free to correct,  but the last trade of a regular before those two was Hardy   The point of the OP, which usually gets forgotten about at point on a thread, was about showing your work.  Sorry, but perpetuating idle speculation that conversations they think have not happened  is old when the track record is considered. TR is very good about being silent in the off season of who he trades or who he signs as a free agent for that matter,  The inactivity of the "rumor mill" is no sign of anything when it comes to TR.  

Name a logical team for Plouffe to go to.  Is there a contender with a 3b significantly worse than Plouffe? That should be another clue as to why Plouffe's name is not in the print. There is not a team that would gain from having him as a 2 year plan.  At 7m for this year, he is not worth it for a rebuild team to take unless they only have to give up  a power pitcher that throws a straight fastball.

[bird]

Can we just agree that the Twins are less likely to be the source of a rumor than the team on the other side of the matter? Can we also stop arguing that, because the Twins were the subject of one trade rumor, that it means they aren't closed-lipped in general? Can we simply acknowledge that sometimes writers speculate about a trade that has involved no talks between teams? Can we stop speculating, based on the absence of rumors, that the Twins made no calls, or took no calls about a player, when in fact we are clueless? Can we stop saying there are no excuses when something we want to happen doesn't happen?  

 

 

Edited February 27, 2016 by birdwatcher

[Otto von Ballpark]

How many times is there a rumor on there about a Twin's player being traded? Around deadline time there is speculation. Not so much in the off season. The last two trades of regular position players were Span and Revere. Not much of a peep before they happened.

Technically, there were a lot of rumors about a Span trade from midseason 2012.

 

But I agree there wasn't a market for Plouffe this winter, I am not concerned if they didn't shop him.

[Otto von Ballpark]

Can we just agree that the Twins are less likely to be the source of a rumor than the team on the other side of the matter?

I'm not sure is a big difference in this regard. I was poking through MLBTR archives recently, we obviously had tons of rumors about signing Hunter and Buehrle. And of course tons of rumors before many of our mid season trades.

 

I think our perception is colored because we don't participate in that many trades, we often try to sign our big FA early in the off season, and when we do pursue trades, they are for less interesting guys (my MLBTR archive search also revealed zero rumors about Jepsen, involving any team, from 2015 prior to our trade for him).

 

So if there were a better 3B market this year, I wouldn't be really comfortable crediting the Twins tight-lipped nature if we didn't hear any activity around him. Of course, it is a moot point since the 3B market was terrible.

[Platoon]

And I look back fondly on my four years at Willmar State Junior College.

The question is: Does Willmar State College? I would have sworn JC was a two yr program?

[bird]

 

I'm not sure is a big difference in this regard. I was poking through MLBTR archives recently, we obviously had tons of rumors about signing Hunter and Buehrle. And of course tons of rumors before many of our mid season trades.

I think our perception is colored because we don't participate in that many trades, we often try to sign our big FA early in the off season, and when we do pursue trades, they are for less interesting guys (my MLBTR archive search also revealed zero rumors about Jepsen, involving any team, from 2015 prior to our trade for him).

So if there were a better 3B market this year, I wouldn't be really comfortable crediting the Twins tight-lipped nature if we didn't hear any activity around him. Of course, it is a moot point since the 3B market was terrible.

 

 

 

Yeah, I'll concede this point easily, but point out that the leak could come from Hunter's or Buehrle's agent. I'd suggest that as a slightly more likely source because of the potential benefit involved for the agent and his client. And for sure we agree on your last point. No rumors about Plouffe doesn't clearly suggest a whole lot. Ryan however did.

[bird]

 

The question is: Does Willmar State College? I would have sworn JC was a two yr program?

 

 

It is a two yr program. But what's the big deal with being held back twice? They MUST have been fond of Chief.

[Rosterman]

We also have to admit that the 2015 season, we wanted the Twins to improve. Few expected them to be in the hunt to the final weekend. They did improve, just a tad better than the best we hoped for...most people were hoping they would approach, say, 75 wins.

 

The call is still out on Santana. We can't do anything but cut Nolasco, so we need to give him one more look. Hughes, most feel, shouldn't have been extended. Now that he has, Ryan should be willing to trade him if he shows drastic improvement over 2015.

 

The reason for trading Plouffe, future cost. He is still worth his salary this season (we hope). But is he a $10 million player? Could he have been packaged with another Twin of some value (Kyle Gibson, perhaps) with a bigger return from another club. I don't like reading that Sano MIGHT NOT get time at third base, as Plouffe is still a tradeable asset during mid-season, and would hope that Sano gets some time there (which is why I would have rather seen the reverse, start Plouffe in the outfield if need be and Sano at third and go from there, if we are keeping him). If something happens to Plouffe I don't want to see Nunez or any of the infielders signed for AAA playing there fulltime, of even a switch of Escobar so we can see more of Polanco.

 

Yes, you do buy a top-flight free agent if you are in a position to win the pennant and move onto the World Series? Are the Twins there yet? No. They are still thinking about their rebuilding blocks, staying competitive to keep the fans coming, and playing for 2017 and beyond. Maybe next off-season they will make a major splash as well as potentially rid themselves of some excess payroll. But even then, the guys coming up this year will have to prove themselves again in 2017 that -- good or bad -- what they did this season was not a fluke.

[jimmer]

'The reason for trading Plouffe, future cost. He is still worth his salary this season (we hope). But is he a $10 million player?'

 

10M a year, in today's game, isn't that much for a starting caliber veteran.  Plouffe has been worth 20M+ or more for the last two seasons. I have zero doubt he'll be worth his 7M+ salary this year.

Edited February 27, 2016 by jimmer

[spinowner]

 

If it was just injury with Nolasco, I would be more understanding.  But it feels like more than that.  And he seems very un-Twins like in personality, which suggests the Twins indeed targeted him more out of desperation than aggressiveness, which is a bad way to operate in FA.

I just now decided to catch up on this thread, so I apologize for being a bit out of sync.

My comment on this is that at that juncture the Twins were desperate. Everyone knew they were not going to contend for the postseason. No elite FA would have signed with them. They needed someone/anyone who had a track record of eating innings. Even looking back, I think the Nolasco signing made sense based on what we knew at that time. Sometimes things work out well and sometimes they don't.

[Brock Beauchamp]

It will be interesting to monitor the four year competition between Nolasco and Garza and their quest for the "Overpaid Waste of Space" championship.

 

Initially, Nolasco had a big lead after Garza posted a respectable 1.4 WAR in 2014 but Matt stormed back into the discussion with a horrific -1.7 WAR last season.

 

Current standings:

 

Nolasco: -0.8 rWAR

Garza: -0.3 rWAR

 

I suspect this one will go down to the wire.

[spinowner]

 

It will be interesting to monitor the four year competition between Nolasco and Garza and their quest for the "Overpaid Waste of Space" championship.

 

Initially, Nolasco had a big lead after Garza posted a respectable 1.4 WAR in 2014 but Matt stormed back into the discussion with a horrific -1.7 WAR last season.

 

Current standings:

 

Nolasco: -0.8 rWAR

Garza: -0.3 rWAR

 

I suspect this one will go down to the wire.

Ha. Interesting way to look at it. I'd bet on Garza to take the title. Actually I wouldn't bet on it. If one of them is put into involuntary retirement how would you factor that in?

[Otto von Ballpark]

To be fair, a counting stat isn't the ideal comparison. Garza could have been shut down earlier last year if the Brewers were playing meaningful games.

[Brock Beauchamp]

To be fair, a counting stat isn't the ideal comparison. Garza could have been shut down earlier last year if the Brewers were playing meaningful games.

Absolutely. I'm just having a bit of fun.

[barbarosa]

Bottomline is we are not privy to the inside thinking or lack their of (in our opinons) of the Management/FO.  This is not a business where it is our business, nor right to know what they are thinking or planning in long terms.  We can just see the pieces and guess at what they might do, or listen to the ramblings of FO which feeds us whatever they want...

 

Of course most of us would love to see some excitement in the decision making matrix/process, and all of us would love to see the Twins management somehow make all those decisions to have a top rated, talented, and winning team again; but we are going to just have wait  to see how THEY want to run OUR team.  And hope for the wins in the process.