Article: How Brett Lawrie's Trade Altered My Thinking

[sploorp]

 

Hicks is not a Gold Glove defensive player. He has never won a Gold Glove and would not be considered for it this year. He also has some upside but I would not call it a TON.

 

John Ryan Murphy is not a backup catcher. He a young prospect catcher who looks to split time with Suzuki before eventually taking over the job full time.

 

Hold off on saying that Sano can't play OF and handing out grades. The Twins can cover a lot for him with Buxton and Rosario and you never know how a guy will play out there. 

 

There's just too many unknowns to go around throwing out final judgments.

 

 

Excellent post!  Even though I didn't quote the whole thing (I just wanted enough to spark readers minds), I agree every word - except the part about Jason Tyner.  Nobody should have to remember the Tyner.  Ever.

[sploorp]

 

 

Santanna

Gibson

Hughes

Milone

Nolasco

All on a short leash because of Duffey and Berrios in AAA. If they are not willing to go on DL for a phantom injury then cut them because they are not into winning.

And Mays makes 8.  Don't forget about Mays.  I think Mays should swap with Nolasco.  Mays has earned a spot in the rotation.  Let Nolasco prove that he can handle some multi inning relief appearances before letting him start again.

[Bill Brown69]

 

It's only "depth" if you don't move your big, power hitting stud of a young player to the outfield. 

 

Plouffe isn't the problem, the problem is Mauer.  Unfortunately that means Plouffe is the one that should move around, not Sano.

No, that actually means whoever is not a prime fielder at his position should move. If that means we are talking about the 4 of Mauer, Sano, Plouffe and Park that puts Plouffe as the player that doesn't move.

You are right in that Mauer should be in the running to move but,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

 

But back to my first post. Having one of Mauer,Plouffe,Arcia or Sano on the bench every day is not a bad thing over a long season.

 

If you can't/won't do the role asked of you then maybe you aren't interested in winning and I don't care who you are. Play 5 of 7 games and show me that you should be in there for 6!!

[zchrz]

Juggling an extra bat is not a bad thing at all, but doing so at the sake of Sano being the everyday 3rd baseman for as long as he possibly can is.  Juggle Plouffe, Mauer, Park, RF, and some Sano DH days to your hearts content but give 3rd to Sano. 

[kab21]

Weak 3B trade market?  Shocking...

 

[Riverbrian]

It's only "depth" if you don't move your big, power hitting stud of a young player to the outfield.

 

Plouffe isn't the problem, the problem is Mauer. Unfortunately that means Plouffe is the one that should move around, not Sano.

It's still depth unless someone declares that... (Insert player here) will never play... Let's say 3B again.

 

The Twins would never do that because it makes no sense.

 

That would be like taking a career catcher and moving him to 1B and saying he will never play catcher again.

 

The Twins just wouldn't do that.

[Riverbrian]

Random Thought

 

I have both Sano and Kris Bryant as keepers on my Fantasy baseball team. I'm grateful that Kris Bryant is also OF eligible and...

 

Bryant is OF eligible because Joe Maddon moved him to the OF for enough games to qualify.

 

Maddon did the same thing with Schwarber and it didn't kill Bryant or Schwarber or the Cubs.

 

I'm also happy that Sano might have OF eligibility because that flexibility is helpful to me as a fantasy team owner and It was also helpful to the Cubs and...

 

It will be helpful to the Twins.

 

Maybe just maybe we can get our best bats in the lineup...

 

Maybe

[TheLeviathan]

 

It's still depth unless someone declares that... (Insert player here) will never play... Let's say 3B again.

The Twins would never do that because it makes no sense.

That would be like taking a career catcher and moving him to 1B and saying he will never play catcher again.

The Twins just wouldn't do that.

 

So you think they're going to take Sano out of the outfield this year if Plouffe is hurt?

 

Or is it more likely Nunez plays and Sano stays in the outfield.  So that depth really isn't depth unless Sano has suddenly become a utility player.

[Riverbrian]

So you think they're going to take Sano out of the outfield this year if Plouffe is hurt?

 

Or is it more likely Nunez plays and Sano stays in the outfield.  So that depth really isn't depth unless Sano has suddenly become a utility player.

I'm Hopeful and that's as far as I'll go.

 

I'm hoping Molitor will be able to make a decision between Arcia and Nunez and make the best decision.

 

Hoping

 

I don't always get what I want

[Penthang]

I think it's telling that as winter meetings are coming to an end Sano was recalled from playing winter ball. Despite the lip service given to the Sano to outfield move I think they were trying to move Plouff and Ryan just didn't get an offer that he felt was worth it. Also, I wouldn't be surprised if the -out of options- Santana were the opening day center fielder until they feel Buxtons bat is ready to play.

[DocBauer]

For the record, I've never been a "Plouffe must go" believer. Depth of talent is a great thing, and there is  no reason you couldn't move guys in and out of spots and the lineup here and there. Also, I'm excited about Park's potential and think the move was a great one. But put these two ideas together, and there is a bit of a conundrum. I know these things often have a way of simply working themselves out, but there is a bit of an oddity to the roster right now.

 

To be fair, there is still time to work these things out. There are still CF options out there if the Twins feel Buxton is better served spending time in Rochester. There is still time for a Plouffe move if the right offer/opportunity comes along. And there are still some solid options for a RH hitting OF to mix and match with Rosario and Arcia if Sano were to be moved back to 3B with said theoretical Plouffe move.

 

I don't think it's time to hit the panic button on anything just yet. I'm still more concerned, at this point, with the bullpen, particularly from the left side.

[DocBauer]

 

I think Santana can have a solid career but not as a top of the order bat. Mostly as a super utility (rich mans nick Punto) who can be a stop gap at SS if need be (rich mans Nick Punto)

Agreed. As of now, that is also how I see him, super utility, versatile help offensively off the bench.

 

But if you look at his milb track record and his rookie year, and for a moment ignore his disappointing 2015, you can see the potential. He certainly wouldn't be the first guy to not be able to handle ever day duty in the infield but find himself in the OF. At that point, I could see him bloom with just a little more discipline. Based on talent, previous results, but again, ignoring '15. LOL

[Mike Sixel]

Punto was a good defender at multiple positions. Why do we think Santana will be?

[h2oface]

If I  were Sano, and was getting jerked around like this after all these years, I would want to be traded to a team that would at least give me a chance, just a chance, to show them that I can do the job I have been groomed to do before being asked to switch to an unfamiliar position just as I arrived.

 

Sano would probably have more trade value too.

Edited December 11, 2015 by h2oface

[alarp33]

 

Agreed. As of now, that is also how I see him, super utility, versatile help offensively off the bench.

 

But if you look at his milb track record and his rookie year, and for a moment ignore his disappointing 2015, you can see the potential. He certainly wouldn't be the first guy to not be able to handle ever day duty in the infield but find himself in the OF. At that point, I could see him bloom with just a little more discipline. Based on talent, previous results, but again, ignoring '15. LOL

 

What track record are you speaking to exactly? He was never a particularly good minor leaguer, yeah he was always a little young for his level but he was never really considered much of a prospect.  I guess he was decent in Fort Meyers in 2012? Why do you think his bat will translate to OF, it was sketchy even at SS.  Who do you prefer him over, Rosario, Buxton, Kepler or Sano?  So many questions... 

[Mike Sixel]

 

If I  were Sano, and was getting jerked around like this after all these years, I would want to be traded to a team that would at least give me a chance, just a chance, to show them that I can do the job I have been groomed to do before being asked to switch to an unfamiliar position just as I arrived.

 

Sano would probably have more trade value too.

 

How is Sano being jerked around? By maybe moving to the OF? Position changes happen all the time, even with elite players.

[h2oface]

 

How is Sano being jerked around? By maybe moving to the OF? Position changes happen all the time, even with elite players.

 

Yes. To get to this final level and not even get an opportunity to perform in the position that is familiar, that is the only position you have been groomed for throughout the long minor league progression, and thrown into one when he finally reaches the top level that is totally unfamiliar.  It is one thing to get the chance and fail, another to not even get a shot. 

Edited December 11, 2015 by h2oface

[Linus]

If I were Sano, and was getting jerked around like this after all these years, I would want to be traded to a team that would at least give me a chance, just a chance, to show them that I can do the job I have been groomed to do before being asked to switch to an unfamiliar position just as I arrived.

 

Sano would probably have more trade value too.

"All these years"? He's 22 and in the big leagues.

[h2oface]

 

"All these years"? He's 22 and in the big leagues.

 

You can make light of it if you like. All these 6 years with the Twins org as far as I can tell - 27% of his life. I can still identify with being 22, and what it is like. At 22, I would think I am being jerked around to not even get a chance to play third and prove myself once I got to the show, that I have earned being here with my talent and work and focus , and would embrace an organization that treated me with the respect and gave me a shot. The Twin's aren't doing him any favors, and never have. He would be relished on any club, and perhaps given the opportunity he has earned.

 

My thinking is that Plouffe and Sano split time at third, and if Sano can show that he can become a major league third base sacker, then Plouffe's highest value will come at the trade deadline, if he is to be traded. If Sano can't cut the mustard at third after given a fair lengthy chance, then a change would be appropriate to keep his bat in the lineup, if he is hitting like he has.

Edited December 12, 2015 by h2oface

[gil4]

 

 Why don't you look at how the Angels handled Trout, while Buxton won't ever reach his level...

I'm not necessarily ready to concede that yet.

[DocBauer]

What track record are you speaking to exactly? He was never a particularly good minor leaguer, yeah he was always a little young for his level but he was never really considered much of a prospect.  I guess he was decent in Fort Meyers in 2012? Why do you think his bat will translate to OF, it was sketchy even at SS.  Who do you prefer him over, Rosario, Buxton, Kepler or Sano?  So many questions...

 

alarp33, forgive me if I attempt to be brief. I posted concerning this matter a couple weeks ago in the forums section, and hit high points a couple pages ago in this thread. As of NOW, to repeat, I see a versatile and diverse role player. But the potential for more absolutely exists.

 

Santana was never in a Twins top 10 prospect list, but he was in various top 20 lists. He was always, at worst, in the "keep an eye on" lists with reference to speed, power for his size/position, and overall athleticism. He turned 25 just a few weeks ago, was 24 during his disappointing 2015 season, and only 23 during his rather outstanding 2014 season...skipping AAA almost entirely, playing only 24 games total. He was 22 in '13 at AA, 21 at Ft Meyers and 20 at Beloit. He split 2010 between Beloit late and Elizabethton early as a 19 yo. He made his debut in the states in the GCL as an 18 yo. Look at his steady and rather aggressive progress through the system and you will see a player generally young at each and every level.

 

Career milb AVG/OB of .276/ .319 and 6 straight seasons of double digit SB with a high of 30 in '13 at AA before making his ML debut in 2014. Milb OB 43 points above his BA. Yes, we want the OB higher, but again, consider the relative youth and potential. And when we talk potential, reflect on his 2014 rookie season at 23 yo...forget the awful and out of whack 2015 for a moment...and put it all together. At just a recently turned 25 yo, with his speed, decent pop, quick hands and some compromise between his milb numbers and his rookie campaign, I feel it's not unrealistic to think he could become an exciting and solid top of the order producer.

[kab21]

So far Santana is following Casilla's career path (different types of hitters).  Both had excellent defensive tools but neither could consistently make the routine plays.  Both showed flashes with the bat but they have also struggled mightily at times.  I think this year is his last chance with the Twins.

 

I think Santana will be used as a MI/OF utility player this which gives the Twins some additional flexibility for the 4th and final bench spot since all of the defensive positions will be covered many times over with Santana and Nunez as well as the positional flexibility of Rosario (LF to CF), Sano (RF? to 3B), Park (DH to 1B) and a few others.  Most likely the 4th spot goes to Arcia but keeping Vargas isn't impossible (but unlikely).

[h2oface]

 

I think it's telling that as winter meetings are coming to an end Sano was recalled from playing winter ball. Despite the lip service given to the Sano to outfield move I think they were trying to move Plouff and Ryan just didn't get an offer that he felt was worth it. Also, I wouldn't be surprised if the -out of options- Santana were (sic) the opening day center fielder until they feel Buxtons bat is ready to play.

 

That would seem to be a lose lose to me. Santana hardly proved his bat was ready, both in MLB and in MiLB. So you start Santana, whose bat is just as suspect, if not more, than Buxton's, and the defense is not as good then, either.

Edited December 12, 2015 by h2oface

[Penthang]

Yes. To get to this final level and not even get an opportunity to perform in the position that is familiar, that is the only position you have been groomed for throughout the long minor league progression, and thrown into one when he finally reaches the top level that is totally unfamiliar. It is one thing to get the chance and fail, another to not even get a shot.

While I would not argue that Plouff is the overall better player, he is established at that position. It happens a fair amount that when a team has a player they want up now, they find a place for them if they are blocked at there native position. It does usually happen at least a few months before they get called up (roster management), but it's certainly a common enough practice.

Like a few have pointed out it seems to me it's a four player juggle. If I were the manager, I'd prefer to see Sano get the majority of the starts at 3rd and playing right when Mauer doesn't with Plouff splitting time with Park at first. Just a thought.