My final comment: baseball needs the equivalent of a 15 yard taunting penalty.

My suggestion: fine the player as if he had been ejected.

All we would need is 15 or so mind reading umpires to determine to motivation behind a player's supposed taunting.

 

In some ways, this is classic blame the victim.....

Maybe he will not even be in the lineup. If so, I can almost guarantee he takes one in the ribs in his first AB against the Twins next year.

 

I don't think they will retaliate today, if he's in the lineup. It's too "obvious" (even though next April will also be obvious to those that are paying attention). 

 

That replay doesn't show the bat flip.

It shows him flipping the bat while staring into the visiting dugout at the :52 second mark.

 

Looks like Paul is asking Mr. Ramirez to exit the playing surface in an orderly fashion. Perhaps some slightly more colorful language is in use.

 

I'm not defending what he did or did not do, btw.......I'm arguing that throwing at him is wrong.

Yeah I am with you on this one.  I never understood throwing at guys.  I get coming inside to back them off the plate a little but throwing at hitters seems like there should be a larger penalty for that and what does it really solve anyway except for the other team throwing at your guys.

 

I agree with several others.  If you don't want to see a bat flip do your job better.

Yeah, so the world is full of narcissistic d-bags in many walks of life who think they're entitled to insult others if they so choose.

But why take exception to them? They have to wake up the next day only to discover they're still a narcissistic d-bag.

I agree that baseball needs some form of unsportsmanlike conduct penalty.  Not sure the answer here is more unsportsmanlike conduct as hitting him can lead to injury.  You cannot really take away the hit or run.  Ejection/fine might be the simplest answer.  I might be OK with occasionally hitting a batter if they could guarantee plunking the guy in the butt where it's only going to leave a bruise, but some guys go after the head, or you miss and break a wrist.  Not really worth it.  It's just childish.   

The problem with getting mad at a particular bat flip over another is that it employs the famous Supreme Court Justice Stewart line about obscenity - "I know it when I see it."

 

Whether or not people think a bat flip is too much is often a combination of the player's experience or inexperience,

the stakes (is the HR "meaningful" or not), and other factors like the player's history against the team, etc.

 

Without any obvious and clear line to cross, it's pretty silly to get mad at the one you've defined for the hitter.

 

 

 

 

Nolasco is furious with Ramirez (saying 'He'll get his")?   Embarrassing.   It didn't appear he even saw the pose or the flip as he turned to watched the ball.  If this wasn't your first pitching appearance since May Ricky, you might have a small (very small reason), to be annoyed.

 

The kid overreacted to the intentional walk in a blow out (still not getting Molly's over managing at that point).   Should the twins have responded in the fashion they did?   I have no problem with that?    Should it go any further than that.   No.

Edited October 1, 201511 yr by rghrbek

 

Nobody got upset when Puckett showed some emotion rounding the bases after ending game six.

Nobody gets upset about teams and players celebrating a walk off win.

Nobody gets upset about a pitcher fist pumping after a huge K to end a threat.

They get upset when actions AREN'T borne from emotion.

Which was the case in this instance.

 

Teams do get pissy about walk-offs and they do get pissed at showy pitchers.  

 

You could look up at least an hour's worth of clips of whiny players being mad at the emotion of Carlos Gomez alone.

I was on my way home when the play was happening, so I was listening on the radio. I remember saying "WHY?!?" when the intentional walk was called. If the score was close I could see a reason for it, but the last thing the Twins needed was more base runners in that situation. 

 

Gladden joked " Well, Ricky needs to get his work in on these things too" referring to the intentional walk.

 

It was less funny when Ramirez launched a three run bomb. The radio call mentioned Suzuki, Molitor, and Bruno on the top step, but the reaction this morning seems bigger than what was reported on air.

 

I don't think any one here is suggesting we should throw at him.

 

Some are guessing that they WILL throw at him though.

This debate is going on in two threads and there are people absolutely saying hit him.  One said hit the leadoff hitter, don;t even wait for it to be Ramirez. 

 

Most unwritten rules gives players the excuse to do stupid things that fans and people in the game will excuse. They absolutely cause more harm than good.

 

Papelbon was pissed at Harper because he didn't defend him when Papelbon did a stupid thing. Papelbon waits for Harper to break a stupid unwritten rule and then goes off on him. And pplayers and fan excuse it.

 

Unwritten rules give pitchers reason to throw 90+ MPH balls at pretty much defenseless batters. They give players reasons to fight each other.  But mostly what they do is allow a player to deflect the blame off of who is should be on by saying look at how he showed me up when I served up a meatball HR to a guy I intentionally walked a guy to get to.

 

Think about this.  Pretty much all of the violence in the game is because some unwritten rule was broken.  Many unwritten rules say don't make me feel bad when I fail at my job and the opponent make me pay for it (like when a pitcher serves up a meatball and it gets crushed) because I will look for any reason to make it about your actions instead of about me throwing up a meatball.

 

Excellent post.

Ramirez should have been ejected. Hitters who flip their bats like that for home runs that land in the first row have no respect for the game, and I wouldn't care if he was suspended for the rest of the season. As for Nolasco and Molitor; who may have overreacted, next year would be a better time to settle this.

 

hrowing at hitters seems like there should be a larger penalty for that and what does it really solve anyway except for the other team throwing at your guys.

 

 

On top of that, it puts a runner on the bases.  What if that guy ends up scoring or, better yet, what if he scores and the team wins by one run?  Now how does that decision look?  Now how would it look if all that happened tonight and we didn't make the playoff by one game. 

I don't think screaming F*** You's from the top step of the dugout with kids sitting in the stands behind the dugout is a very classy thing. But I guess the unwritten rules says that's ok if somebody does bat flip.

 

I don't think screaming F*** You's from the top step of the dugout with kids sitting in the stands behind the dugout is a very classy thing. But I guess the unwritten rules says that's ok if somebody does bat flip.

You mean that isn't the right example to set for the kids?

 

It shows him flipping the bat while staring into the visiting dugout at the :52 second mark.

 

Looks like Paul is asking Mr. Ramirez to exit the playing surface in an orderly fashion. Perhaps some slightly more colorful language is in use.

To me, it looks like Ramirez is looking out to field the whole time, not into the dugout.  He carried the bat with him at the beginning of his trot, by the time he flipped it he would have been near the middle of the Twins dugout and would have had to turn his head almost completely to the side to look in there.

 

I think the direction of the bat flip and the height of the flip are what angered the Twins.

 

And I am no lip-reader, but Suzuki's profanity is clearly evident.

 

You mean that isn't the right example to set for the kids?

 

Well not quite.  You're supposed to also hurl a baseball or a fist at the offender along with swearing.  

Molly should have flew out of the dugout with one hand in the air flipping the bird and the other hand cupping his junk and then met him at home plate with a firm kick to his wheeener! Problem solved.

 

You mean that isn't the right example to set for the kids?

What do kids have to do with this? This is a man's game, or so I've been told. 

 

Molly should have flew out of the dugout with one hand in the air flipping the bird and the other hand cupping his junk and then met him at home plate with a firm kick to his wheeener! Problem solved.

 

Absolutely!  I'm sure that will end all bad blood and ungentlemanly conduct!

 

Nothing like being an even bigger jerk to teach a jerk to behave!

If we all could survive Junior High and High School where this kind of nonsense occurred regularly, we can probably put up with it on a much less frequent basis now.  This surely can't be more than an event that a normal human being should exert any more energy on than rolling their eyes.

maybe when I wrote "staring into the dugout" is a bit much, but the visiting dugout is on the first base side in Cleveland -  I wish I could freeze frame the video (with a better angle) to show Ramirez. to me it looks like he's watching the ball for a few steps, then flips the bat in the general direction of the dugout on the first base side and watches the bat (that part gets cut out by the video going to a different angle at this point). Hard to say how long he looked towards the dugout, and impossible to know what Ramirez's intent was.

 

I think we've thoroughly Roshomon'd the event.

 

A Twins win tonight and a playoff berth after the weekend feels like sufficient payback to me, no need to hit a Cleveland batter with a pitch.

How about this one....all Twins players and coaches spontaneously step to the top step of the dugot and do a golf clap for him while laughing uncontrollably! The guy would feel about an inch tall!!!!

 

If we all could survive Junior High and High School where this kind of nonsense occurred regularly, we can probably put up with it on a much less frequent basis now.  This surely can't be more than an event that a normal human being should exert any more energy on than rolling their eyes.

 

Labeling this stuff high school behavior is being very generous.  I've seen kindergartners with better conflict resolution skills.

 

Labeling this stuff high school behavior is being very generous.  I've seen kindergartners with better conflict resolution skills.

"Non refundable boom daddy to the chin!"

He was yelling "Get the **** off the field!!!"

Bingo on Molitor. Suzuki was a little easier to read. ;-)

I expect today's game to be very professional on both sides. That was an unusual lack of discipline for both sides. Molitor and Francona don't stand for a lot of showboating.

Well, from Francona's point of view, the last thing you need is some young punk player doing/saying anything to get the opponent that you play tomorrow fired up.  Generally, the payback is against the next batter followed by a warning/ejection.  Don't need that either.

 

The reality is that you just lost 2 of 3 at home...what's to celebrate?  You want to celebrate your highlight in the 1 game that you won?  Fabulous.  Celebrate all the way to a .333 winning record and a front row seat on your couch to watch the playoffs on TV.