AA and AAA

[glunn]

My biggest belief between the two would be pitchers need work at AAA because it is critical for them to prove they can get outs while throwing in the strike zone. In AA, many of the hitters are less disciplined and chase more pitches. This is why I feel AA is the top proving ground for hitting prospects. If they are successful at AA, it shows they can force top talent level pitchers to pitch in the zone which is critical to make the jump to the majors. It is also the reason I think pitching prospects need to go to AAA where they will face less talented hitters, but those who are more disciplined and will force them to develop "out pitches" in the strike zone.

What you say makes a lot of sense to me.

[greengoblinrulz]

a guy like Plouffe is a tough example of the difference between AA & AAA as he's become a totally different player the last 3/4yrs as he's developed his power. Bill Smith was also his GM his first couple yrs in AAA & thats not a guy to analyze talent.

 

Watching the Braves & their new SS....22 yr old Andrelton Simmons got 43gms in AA this yr. Went from SSeason to A+ to AA to majors in 2 calender yrs.

This is the new style of baseball that MN needs to catch up with. ONE of the reasons IMO why they are so far behind the curve of other teams.

[Badsmerf]

a guy like Plouffe is a tough example of the difference between AA & AAA as he's become a totally different player the last 3/4yrs as he's developed his power. Bill Smith was also his GM his first couple yrs in AAA & thats not a guy to analyze talent.

 

Watching the Braves & their new SS....22 yr old Andrelton Simmons got 43gms in AA this yr. Went from SSeason to A+ to AA to majors in 2 calender yrs.

This is the new style of baseball that MN needs to catch up with. ONE of the reasons IMO why they are so far behind the curve of other teams.

Are you suggesting they move their top talent more quickly through the system? I would be a big fan of it. I have a different idea of prospect development though. I think you need to consistently challenge players (that can handle it). As they develop specific skills they should be allowed to advance. Service time be damned. A productive MLB player is going to develop or isn't. Delmon Young was promoted aggressively and it wouldn't have mattered if he was held back because he is stubborn and just can't hit very well. Then you have Plouffe who possibly benefited from extra time to develop. Its possible he could have developed with the Twins, but we will never know. My point is every prospect should be treated differently.

[diehardtwinsfan]

the problem with moving top talent rapidly is that you end up with guys like Gomez or Young.... or on the other side, the guy finally figures it out as he gets expensive... Sano would get killed in MLB right now... no reason to be agressive with him just because he's highly rated.

[DaveW]

the problem with moving top talent rapidly is that you end up with guys like Gomez or Young.... or on the other side, the guy finally figures it out as he gets expensive... Sano would get killed in MLB right now... no reason to be agressive with him just because he's highly rated.

Yeah, I'm still convinced the Mets ruined Gomez.

 

Young IMO was always going to be a lost cause with his approach, but Gomez could have been a decent player if they wouldn't have rushed him through the system IMO.

[diehardtwinsfan]

Yeah, I'm still convinced the Mets ruined Gomez.

 

Young IMO was always going to be a lost cause with his approach, but Gomez could have been a decent player if they wouldn't have rushed him through the system IMO.

I agree that Young walked a finer line than Gomez, but both could have spent more time in the minors. The approach, while tougher, certainly wasn't the only issue. Vlad Guerrero had a pretty nice career as a free swinger... Young's contract forced him up sooner than he should have been... as such, he got expensive as he figured things out, and quite frankly the contract didn't give him much of an incentive to change his approach...

[Rosterman]

Young and Gomez are fine examples. Both rushed, both are now expensive. Both may still hit a big prime when they get to 28-31, but at what cost to a franchise. Sometimes, being in the minors teaches humility and responsibility. You still are playing a game that may be fun, but you have to realize that nothing in life is truly easy and does take hard work.

[Badsmerf]

Young and Gomez are fine examples of guys that moved rapidly through a system and failed in the MLB. However, both had unwarranted advancements. There are also plenty of examples of guys who were moved quickly that succeeded.

[alarp33]

a guy like Plouffe is a tough example of the difference between AA & AAA as he's become a totally different player the last 3/4yrs as he's developed his power. Bill Smith was also his GM his first couple yrs in AAA & thats not a guy to analyze talent.

 

Watching the Braves & their new SS....22 yr old Andrelton Simmons got 43gms in AA this yr. Went from SSeason to A+ to AA to majors in 2 calender yrs.

This is the new style of baseball that MN needs to catch up with. ONE of the reasons IMO why they are so far behind the curve of other teams.

 

Simmons is a rare case that really compares to no one in the Twins system IMO. He is an elite defensive SS, and was clearly ready to play SS for a major league team. The Braves called him up because he immediately shored up their middle IF and didn't expect/need much from his bat.

[Shane Wahl]

Damn, a lot of things to respond to. A lot of good thoughts here. So the top of the New Britain lineup: Hicks, Herrmann, Arcia, Colabello, and Bigley is on a roll right now. I personally would like to see them promote everyone except for Arcia (maybe that's ironic since he is the best prospect . . . but perhaps players like him don't need to bother with AAA). The other four certainly need to advance even that small step, see some closer-to-the-majors, pitching, etc. This is starting to look a little like the New Britain situation last year. You know: Dozier, Benson, Parmelee, Herrmann, and Solarte . . . . how did not promoting to AAA appropriately turn out there, again??!!

[Shane Wahl]

I mean I know such pieces like Rene Rivera, Clete Thomas, and Michael Hollimon are so valuable to have hanging around . . .

[chopper0080]

Damn, a lot of things to respond to. A lot of good thoughts here. So the top of the New Britain lineup: Hicks, Herrmann, Arcia, Colabello, and Bigley is on a roll right now. I personally would like to see them promote everyone except for Arcia (maybe that's ironic since he is the best prospect . . . but perhaps players like him don't need to bother with AAA). The other four certainly need to advance even that small step, see some closer-to-the-majors, pitching, etc. This is starting to look a little like the New Britain situation last year. You know: Dozier, Benson, Parmelee, Herrmann, and Solarte . . . . how did not promoting to AAA appropriately turn out there, again??!!

What is interesting is I agree, but think Arcia is probably the most ready of your aformentioned prospects to make the jump to the majors from a hitting standpoint. Where I would hesitate in promoting everyone but Arcia is that leaves him little protection in that lineup. Pitchers won't have to pitch to him which could hurt his development in commanding the strike zone as a hitter. All premier players want to help their team, and to put a young hitter who seems to command the strike zone in a situation where teams don't have to throw him strikes could very well lead to him expanding his strike zone in order to try an make an impact in the game as is expected of him. It might be a bit far fetched, but I have seen it happen.

 

I am curious to see what Hicks does if promoted to AAA where there are less talented pitchers but ones who are more technically sound. In my opinion he either struggles because pitchers can bait him to chasing pitches outside of the zone or he blows up because he is able to crush more balls coming into the zone.

 

All in all, I guess I would prefer to see the Twins move these guys up sooner if they aren't comfortable allowing them to make the jump from AA to the Majors. I understand the Twins don't want to call guys up to sit the bench, but it isn't like we are fielding a hugely competitive major league club right now. If the Twins do trade Span, I would love to see what Arcia could do in RF if the Twins think he can consistently lay off pitches outside the strike zone.

[chopper0080]

I mean I know such pieces like Rene Rivera, Clete Thomas, and Michael Hollimon are so valuable to have hanging around . . .

Agreed

[Shane Wahl]

What is interesting is I agree, but think Arcia is probably the most ready of your aformentioned prospects to make the jump to the majors from a hitting standpoint. Where I would hesitate in promoting everyone but Arcia is that leaves him little protection in that lineup. Pitchers won't have to pitch to him which could hurt his development in commanding the strike zone as a hitter. All premier players want to help their team, and to put a young hitter who seems to command the strike zone in a situation where teams don't have to throw him strikes could very well lead to him expanding his strike zone in order to try an make an impact in the game as is expected of him. It might be a bit far fetched, but I have seen it happen.

 

I am curious to see what Hicks does if promoted to AAA where there are less talented pitchers but ones who are more technically sound. In my opinion he either struggles because pitchers can bait him to chasing pitches outside of the zone or he blows up because he is able to crush more balls coming into the zone.

 

All in all, I guess I would prefer to see the Twins move these guys up sooner if they aren't comfortable allowing them to make the jump from AA to the Majors. I understand the Twins don't want to call guys up to sit the bench, but it isn't like we are fielding a hugely competitive major league club right now. If the Twins do trade Span, I would love to see what Arcia could do in RF if the Twins think he can consistently lay off pitches outside the strike zone.

Yeah, Arcia is the only player in the organization above Beloit who I can see it being potentially ok to have jump AAA altogether.

 

I am not sure if this has been answered yet, but are the pitchers in AAA or AA more like those in the majors? Maybe that's a ridiculous question, but I cannot imagine the answer being AA. At the very least, those in AAA are much like 4-5 starters in the majors, right?

 

I find it hard to believe that most players wouldn't benefit more from consistent promotions up to AAA instead of playing them for 2 years or more at any level along the way, including AA. I understand that there are playing-time concerns, especially with catchers and with areas of some depth (OF, for the Twins), that makes it not totally clear-cut. Yet I still look at that 2011 New Britain lineup and what has become of it in 2012. I don't want a repeat of 2012 in 2013.

[Shane Wahl]

Addendum and clarification: I mean consistent promotions if they are producing. I actually think the Twins did well with Benson and Parmelee all the way until about late July or early August last year. They've done well with Hicks so far as well. I don't want to see that fall apart (again).

[diehardtwinsfan]

Addendum and clarification: I mean consistent promotions if they are producing. I actually think the Twins did well with Benson and Parmelee all the way until about late July or early August last year. They've done well with Hicks so far as well. I don't want to see that fall apart (again).

I would think communication would go a long way here... just me. But when you give a kid a September call up, the advice is simple: this is to get a look at you and make assessments for improvement. Expect to spend next year in AAA, even if you do well.

[chopper0080]

Yeah, Arcia is the only player in the organization above Beloit who I can see it being potentially ok to have jump AAA altogether.

 

I am not sure if this has been answered yet, but are the pitchers in AAA or AA more like those in the majors? Maybe that's a ridiculous question, but I cannot imagine the answer being AA. At the very least, those in AAA are much like 4-5 starters in the majors, right?

 

I find it hard to believe that most players wouldn't benefit more from consistent promotions up to AAA instead of playing them for 2 years or more at any level along the way, including AA. I understand that there are playing-time concerns, especially with catchers and with areas of some depth (OF, for the Twins), that makes it not totally clear-cut. Yet I still look at that 2011 New Britain lineup and what has become of it in 2012. I don't want a repeat of 2012 in 2013.

This is purely my opinion, but I believe in AA, hitters face major league talent, and in AAA, hitters face major league approaches. It has always been my belief that you can tell when a pitcher is ready to jump to the majors if he can get guys to swing and miss on pitches in the strike zone consistently. Pitchers at AA generally feast on batters who do not make them do this because of their less refined approaches as a hitter which is a reason as I see AA being a pitchers league. What this means as a batter is if he can show he can consistently force these talented pitchers to pitch into the strike zone and then execute against those pitches, he is pretty close to major league ready. If a player can't do this consistently or does, but isn't conecting as much as he should (just missing pitches) then he probably needs to move to AAA where he should get more pitches in the zone, but with less electric stuff to where he can work on making solid contact and gaining confidence against fringe major league talent.

 

So yes, time in AAA can be very valuable to hitters and very necessary for them to build confidence. However, I don't feel top hitters need to spend time in AAA if they can generate walks and hit consistently at the AA level.

[Rosterman]

AA is pretty even competitvely for all the players. But still, you might be lucky if half the guys on New Brits roster this year, for example, get a major league inning of play. AAA is for guys on the cusp of being a major league regular, sharing roster space with guys who can come up and be that extra infielder, 4th outfielder, back of the line starter or emergency bullpen guy -- players who can hold their own briefly in the majors while the backups already in the majors move to more formidable roles...and the timing is usually short. You bring up Burroughs to sit on the bench, but keep Parmelee playing everyday, for example. You bring up Parmelee to play everyday if your first abseman goes down. If an outfielder goes down for say two weeks, you let Mastro play everyday and bring up a Carson or Wilkin to back him up. If the outfielder goes down for the rest of the season, then maybe you bring up Benson to see how he plays everyday until you can't stand it anymore. And you often get short-term great results from AAAA guys because they try so hard to remain in the majors, but eventually they peter out and become AAAA fodder again.

[Shane Wahl]

Again, I agree that top hitters can jump. And I still say that if competition is even marginally better in AAA, then players should be promoted to AAA before we think they are MLB ready. See Ryan Howard.

[chopper0080]

Again, I agree that top hitters can jump. And I still say that if competition is even marginally better in AAA, then players should be promoted to AAA before we think they are MLB ready. See Ryan Howard.

I totally agree. AAA is great to build up hitters confidence before heading to the bigs because the get more pitches inthe zone to hit and the stuff is not quite as nasty.

[Shane Wahl]

Is there really any reason, if the Twins promote Evan Bigley to AAA, why Aaron Hicks, Chris Herrmann, Oswaldo Arcia, Chris Colabello, Joe Benson, and Deibinson Romero shouldn't be promoted as well? Are they really simply going to use AA as the testing ground? I know Plouffe is an odd case, but compare him to Chris Parmelee and to Ben Revere 2011.

 

And one can just look at other players throughout baseball to see that most of them spent at least a few hundred plate appearances at AAA (aside from truly elite players). This is frustrating to me. What is going to be the status next year for these guys? Chris Parmeleed?

[Kirby_waved_at_me]

It was mentioned way back in this thread, but a big part of AAA rosters are held for guys that are injury insurance for the Major league team. The result of that is that guys like Clete Thomas, Rene Rivera, Sean Burroughs, etc are getting regular at bats at AAA over top prospects so they can be ready to fill in at the major league level should the need arise.

And because these players (AAAA or retreads or whatever you want to call them) are taking up at bats, the best prospects are staying a level lower so they can play everyday and develop.

It's almost like the insistence to carry three catchers on the MLB team - just in case several players are injured in a row, the Twins (and it seems, most if not all of the MLB teams) would rather call up someone like Thomas, Rivera, Burroughs instead of calling up a top prospect. It keeps the team from having to A) have a guy play too far above his development level and be forced to start their MLB service time early.

I don't necessarily agree that the roster filler in AAA is the most efficient way to develop the young prospects, but I get why teams operate that way. The Twins seem to have had less high-impact players that have deserved the aggressive promotion. There are some players in the system now that might change that trend a bit and see time at AAA and the majors sooner.

[chopper0080]

Is there really any reason, if the Twins promote Evan Bigley to AAA, why Aaron Hicks, Chris Herrmann, Oswaldo Arcia, Chris Colabello, Joe Benson, and Deibinson Romero shouldn't be promoted as well? Are they really simply going to use AA as the testing ground? I know Plouffe is an odd case, but compare him to Chris Parmelee and to Ben Revere 2011.

 

And one can just look at other players throughout baseball to see that most of them spent at least a few hundred plate appearances at AAA (aside from truly elite players). This is frustrating to me. What is going to be the status next year for these guys? Chris Parmeleed?

Probably because the Twins are more comfortable with Hicks, Benson and Arcia jumping straight to the majors from AA and keeping giving their fringe roster players in AAA at bats, which is probably what they view Bigley as right now. A guy who may develop into a major league player, but they want to give more at bats at an upper level.

[Shane Wahl]

Probably because the Twins are more comfortable with Hicks, Benson and Arcia jumping straight to the majors from AA and keeping giving their fringe roster players in AAA at bats, which is probably what they view Bigley as right now. A guy who may develop into a major league player, but they want to give more at bats at an upper level.

Probably correct about Bigley. I wonder--how far do we have to go back to find a Twins AA-to-MLB success story other than Joe Mauer?

[chopper0080]

Probably correct about Bigley. I wonder--how far do we have to go back to find a Twins AA-to-MLB success story other than Joe Mauer?

Probably awhile. Remember that during tha majority of the past 12 years we have been pretty competitive and so we haven't had spots to jump players from AA to the Bigs. Also, you could argue the Twins have the best crop of bats in it's mid level system that it has had in a long time.

 

Ultimately, I believe we will see these three called up in Sept and then given a chance to battle for an outfield spot or two next Spring with the losers replacing those filler outfielders who are at AAA this year. This is one reason I believe if Span/Revere isn't traded by the deadline, I would expect one of them to be traded in the offseason for a pitcher. This would allow the Twins to have Willingham, Span/Revere, Mastroianni/Bigley, and Hicks/Benson/Arcia all battling for the three OF spots, a DH spot, and a reserve spot with the rest getting time at AAA. Not a terrible plan, and it keeps players getting consistent at bats and talent/flexability on both rosters.

[bird]

There are a bunch of good reasons not to move Arcia, Benson, Hicks, et al en mass to AAA :

1. The AAA guys are better at filling in at MLB. Most of the roster has already logged time in the bigs this year.

2. With the exception of Arcia, none of those players is putting up truly dominant numbers. And even Arcia has work to do against lefties. Hicks has six fielding errors.

3. They don't have enough worthy candidates in Fort Myers to replace them. Lance Ray, Angel Morales, Daniel Ortiz. None have an OPS above .750.

4. New Britain is playoff bound. And since staying in AA is not harmful to their development, why not let them play and win together there?

[diehardtwinsfan]

Benson started the year in AAA, and if he continues to hit in AA, I think it's only fair to give him more at bats there... I tend to agree on Arcia and Hicks. Let them both finish the year in NB.

[Shane Wahl]

There are a bunch of good reasons not to move Arcia, Benson, Hicks, et al en mass to AAA :

1. The AAA guys are better at filling in at MLB. Most of the roster has already logged time in the bigs this year.

2. With the exception of Arcia, none of those players is putting up truly dominant numbers. And even Arcia has work to do against lefties. Hicks has six fielding errors.

3. They don't have enough worthy candidates in Fort Myers to replace them. Lance Ray, Angel Morales, Daniel Ortiz. None have an OPS above .750.

4. New Britain is playoff bound. And since staying in AA is not harmful to their development, why not let them play and win together there?

So Ben Revere 2011 and Chris Parmelee 2012 were just fine with the AA-to-MLB jump, right? The question still stands: outside of Mauer, name a AA-to-MLB jump that has worked out well for the Twins? Going back to the 80s?.

 

Hicks is having a very good year and Herrmann is the one catching prospect above low-A that is achieving at all. Clete Thomas and Rene Rivera matter more at AAA than Hicks and Herrmann? please.

[Shane Wahl]

Probably awhile. Remember that during tha majority of the past 12 years we have been pretty competitive and so we haven't had spots to jump players from AA to the Bigs. Also, you could argue the Twins have the best crop of bats in it's mid level system that it has had in a long time.

 

Ultimately, I believe we will see these three called up in Sept and then given a chance to battle for an outfield spot or two next Spring with the losers replacing those filler outfielders who are at AAA this year. This is one reason I believe if Span/Revere isn't traded by the deadline, I would expect one of them to be traded in the offseason for a pitcher. This would allow the Twins to have Willingham, Span/Revere, Mastroianni/Bigley, and Hicks/Benson/Arcia all battling for the three OF spots, a DH spot, and a reserve spot with the rest getting time at AAA. Not a terrible plan, and it keeps players getting consistent at bats and talent/flexability on both rosters.

I agree with the idea, but it just hasn't worked so far (of late). Parmelee's 2012 season is a damn disaster. What a waste. Same with Tosoni and even Revere last year. I am flabbergasted by the notion that Dozier, Parmelee, Solarte, Benson, and Herrmann were better off in 2011 not getting promoted to AAA at the beginning of August so they could see the next level of pitching and build towards facing MLB pitching this year. Christ, Solarte was lost either because of the Twins being stupid or his awareness that the Twins promote so damn slowly and inappropriately at times.

 

Would anyone seriously look at this organization and say that Dozier, Parmelee, and Benson wouldn't have benefitted from 100 PAs at AAA last year?

[old nurse]

I. Christ, Solarte was lost either because of the Twins being stupid or his awareness that the Twins promote so damn slowly and inappropriately at times.

?

Solarte? done nothing with Texas in the PCL which I believe to be a hitter's league. Griping to gripe?