Stick a fork in Hunter, he is done.

[Jham]

Can this forum please be less reactionary than the average fan base.  Hunter has his limitations at this point of his career.  I get that this will probably always be a prospect-heavy medium, but Hunter deserves more respect than he's receiving.  On the field, I think the whole team is pressing, but we're seeing improvements.  Of those who are struggling, Hunter is the least of my concerns.  (Compared to Sano and Buxton, Rosario, Santana, Escobar, Dozier post-extension, Vargas and Arcia who were my two favorite players).  Despite most of the team struggling to hit, and Hughes being 0-3 and playing some really good/hot baseball teams, we've actually hung in pretty well after a tough start.  Let's calm down and put down the pitchforks.  I mean, even Boyer is looking better of late.

[Cap'n Piranha]

 

Well, he isn't even playing, and when he does he has been just as bad of a fielder and a worse hitter than Hunter, so if we cut Hunter we should also cut Arcia. Arcia's ceiling at this point seems to be a well below average fielder, and a hitter who is trying to be Adam Dunn but isn't good enough. Torii Hunter is a player that some people say is just that minus the Adam Dunn part. Age shouldn't matter, performance should, and I am sorry to say that Hunter has played just as well as any Twin not named Joe Mauer.

 

Ahh, now we see the problem.  You think Hunter is the second best Twin right now.  His current stats are: .215/.257/.323, OPS .580.  4 2B, 1 HR, 4 BB, 12 K, 1 SB, 61 wRC+.  See below for several other Twins better than Hunter.

 

Dozier--.205/.294/.329, OPS .623.  6 2B, 1 HR, 10 BB, 20 K, 1 SB, 73 wRC+

Plouffe--.239/.311/.373, OPS .684.  3 2B, 2 HR, 7 BB, 13 K, 0 SB, 94 wRC+

Suzuki--.212/.305/.327, OPS .632.  0 2B, 2 HR, 6 BB, 8 K, 0 SB, 78 wRC+

 

And even though its in much fewer PA's, the below players are so outperforming Hunter, they should be getting more playing time if, you know, we just HAVE to play guys who will not be on roster the next time the Twins make the playoffs.

 

Robinson--.333/.389/.364, OPS .773.  1 2B, 0 HR, 3 BB, 7 K, 2 SB, 117 wRC+

Nunez--.421/.450/.632, OPS 1.082.  4 2B, 0 HR, 1 BB, 3 K, 0 SB, 203 wRC+

Herrmann--.250/.357/.417, OPS .774.  1 3B, 2 BB, 2 K, 0 SB, 118 wRC+

[Cap'n Piranha]

 

Can this forum please be less reactionary than the average fan base.  Hunter has his limitations at this point of his career.  I get that this will probably always be a prospect-heavy medium, but Hunter deserves more respect than he's receiving.  On the field, I think the whole team is pressing, but we're seeing improvements.  Of those who are struggling, Hunter is the least of my concerns.  (Compared to Sano and Buxton, Rosario, Santana, Escobar, Dozier post-extension, Vargas and Arcia who were my two favorite players).  Despite most of the team struggling to hit, and Hughes being 0-3 and playing some really good/hot baseball teams, we've actually hung in pretty well after a tough start.  Let's calm down and put down the pitchforks.  I mean, even Boyer is looking better of late.

 

I don't think this forum is being reactionary at all.  We're looking at a team that was one of the worst defensive outfields in baseball last year, and decided to go and sign one of the worst defensive outfielders.  It was a terrible decision then, and unsurprisingly, through 20 games, it's been terrible, as Hunter being in right has forced Arcia to left and Schafer to play center.  From the moment it was conceived, the decision to bring Hunter back was clearly a business decison, an attempt to pump a few more tickets, merch, and concessions out of the casual fan, rather than an attempt to honestly build a better team.

[Hrbowski]

 

Ahh, now we see the problem.  You think Hunter is the second best Twin right now.  His current stats are: .215/.257/.323, OPS .580.  4 2B, 1 HR, 4 BB, 12 K, 1 SB, 61 wRC+.  See below for several other Twins better than Hunter.

 

Dozier--.205/.294/.329, OPS .623.  6 2B, 1 HR, 10 BB, 20 K, 1 SB, 73 wRC+

Plouffe--.239/.311/.373, OPS .684.  3 2B, 2 HR, 7 BB, 13 K, 0 SB, 94 wRC+

Suzuki--.212/.305/.327, OPS .632.  0 2B, 2 HR, 6 BB, 8 K, 0 SB, 78 wRC+

 

And even though its in much fewer PA's, the below players are so outperforming Hunter, they should be getting more playing time if, you know, we just HAVE to play guys who will not be on roster the next time the Twins make the playoffs.

 

Robinson--.333/.389/.364, OPS .773.  1 2B, 0 HR, 3 BB, 7 K, 2 SB, 117 wRC+

Nunez--.421/.450/.632, OPS 1.082.  4 2B, 0 HR, 1 BB, 3 K, 0 SB, 203 wRC+

Herrmann--.250/.357/.417, OPS .774.  1 3B, 2 BB, 2 K, 0 SB, 118 wRC+

I don't think that Suzuki will be on us next time we make the playoffs, and I don't see why people want to cut Hunter when we won't be able to put a better player out there. Buxton is not ready, what we have in AAA is not competent, and I think that Nunez has a better chance than Robinson to keep hitting, but his defense is worse than Hunter, and from a business perspective we will still have to pay Hunter his contract, and less fans will go to the ballpark because we will still be just as bad, and they will be angry about the team cutting Hunter.

[nicksaviking]

Or he could do the honorable thing and just retire/give the rest of his salary back to the Twins.

 

Thanks for nothing this time around Torii! Enjoy that 10 million you conned Ryan out of.

If it ain't going to me, I could give a mouse's butt about who gets that $10 million. It's not going to go towards improving the team at this point. Looks like it never was.

[Sam Morley]

Worst post ever on this site.

[Platoon]

I did not want to sign Hunter, I was aghast when they did it, and have not changed my opinion. But in expressing it I would hope to be able to do it with a little less fervor. On this team, in this situation, it was a decision that can only point in one of two directions. Either he was signed, despite statements to the contrary, to sell tickets and merchandise to the casual fan. Or he was signed because the people in the FO still thought he could play baseball? I am not sure which is worse? I like many, am absolutely sick of seeing him shoved down our throats during every broadcast. But truth be told, if someone offered me 10 m to play, I would do it, even knowing I can't. One thing is obvious, Target Field has more empty seats than ever. No one is turning out in droves to watch him play.

[nicksaviking]

Almost like it's winning that sells tickets? Absurd.

[Cap'n Piranha]

 

I don't think that Suzuki will be on us next time we make the playoffs, and I don't see why people want to cut Hunter when we won't be able to put a better player out there. Buxton is not ready, what we have in AAA is not competent, and I think that Nunez has a better chance than Robinson to keep hitting, but his defense is worse than Hunter, and from a business perspective we will still have to pay Hunter his contract, and less fans will go to the ballpark because we will still be just as bad, and they will be angry about the team cutting Hunter.

 

Let's just slow down with the cutting Hunter talk; no one on this forum thinks cutting Hunter will actually happen--I think we're all resigned to the fact that unless he gets hurt, he's playing 150+ games this year.

 

What I'm saying is that you're drastically overrating Hunter's ability--he's not good.  He's so not good that Aaron Hicks has better career stats than Hunter in OBP, SLG, BB/k, and has the added benefit of being able to actually run, and therefore could let Arcia move back to right (which is the only position he should be allowed to play), while also being an asset on the basepaths.  We could also bring up Danny Ortiz, who has never played in the bigs, so we have no idea if he's competent.

 

Finally, I could care less what Joe Q. Fan thinks when he goes to the ballpark, and to an extent, neither should the Twins.  Every organization should have as its goal to win a World Series, and every move they make should be weighed against whether it gets a team closer to that goal, or not.  Signing and playing Hunter every day does not get us closer to a World Series.  Not signing/playing him might not either, but at least we could find out if any of our outfield prospects have something.  Therefore, if sitting Hunter so Hicks can get run, or Ortiz can get his shot is the right move to make (which it is), it should be done, even if the casual fan gets upset.

[Hrbowski]

 

Let's just slow down with the cutting Hunter talk; no one on this forum thinks cutting Hunter will actually happen--I think we're all resigned to the fact that unless he gets hurt, he's playing 150+ games this year.

 

What I'm saying is that you're drastically overrating Hunter's ability--he's not good.  He's so not good that Aaron Hicks has better career stats than Hunter in OBP, SLG, BB/k, and has the added benefit of being able to actually run, and therefore could let Arcia move back to right (which is the only position he should be allowed to play), while also being an asset on the basepaths.  We could also bring up Danny Ortiz, who has never played in the bigs, so we have no idea if he's competent.

 

Finally, I could care less what Joe Q. Fan thinks when he goes to the ballpark, and to an extent, neither should the Twins.  Every organization should have as its goal to win a World Series, and every move they make should be weighed against whether it gets a team closer to that goal, or not.  Signing and playing Hunter every day does not get us closer to a World Series.  Not signing/playing him might not either, but at least we could find out if any of our outfield prospects have something.  Therefore, if sitting Hunter so Hicks can get run, or Ortiz can get his shot is the right move to make (which it is), it should be done, even if the casual fan gets upset.

Right field is harder to play than left in Target Field, so I don't see why Arcia should play right.

[bird]

Hunter probably doesn't make the Premature Fork Hall of Fame alongside illustrious past inductees like LaTroy Hawkins, Michael Cuddyer and its most recent inductee Trevor Plouffe. However, he is a worthy nominee, so thank you for that, Dave.

[DaveW]

 

Hunter probably doesn't make the Premature Fork Hall of Fame alongside illustrious past inductees like LaTroy Hawkins, Michael Cuddyer and its most recent inductee Trevor Plouffe. However, he is a worthy nominee, so thank you for that, Dave.

Again, irrelevant analogies. Those guys weren't 39 years old when they were struggling for the Twins.

[DaveW]

Hunter was a 0.0 WAR player last year, and is a 0.0 WAR player this year. If that isn't "done" I don't know what is.

[twinsnorth49]

How on earth is it premature to suggest a 39 year old outfielder might be done? Isn't that like, the opposite of premature?

[Jham]

 

I don't think this forum is being reactionary at all.  We're looking at a team that was one of the worst defensive outfields in baseball last year, and decided to go and sign one of the worst defensive outfielders.  It was a terrible decision then, and unsurprisingly, through 20 games, it's been terrible, as Hunter being in right has forced Arcia to left and Schafer to play center.  From the moment it was conceived, the decision to bring Hunter back was clearly a business decison, an attempt to pump a few more tickets, merch, and concessions out of the casual fan, rather than an attempt to honestly build a better team.

 

I respectfully disagree.  I heard Ryan talk about the signing.  He admitted Hunter may not be an upgrade defensively, but he stated that the free agent market wasn't loaded with outfielders that could both field AND hit.  Based on career numbers and last year's numbers, Hunter is a significant offensive upgrade, well not necessarily a downgrade defensively as we were already bad.  Who should we have signed who would take a one year deal?  I know playing prospects is a popular idea on this forum, but the average fan might be tired of the parade of failing minor leaguers.  I'd rather see Hunter try to relive the glory days than watch a never-ending carousel of Parmalee/Colabello/Hicks playing themselves out of the league one by one.  Bear in mind, most fans would rather see someone they've heard of than some fringe prospect they haven't.  Doesn't make them worse fans, and their money is just as good as ours.  Just because every hipster is guzzling down the latest greatest hop-heavy micro-brew doesn't mean the stadium should stop selling Miller Lite.  Our fan base is more than Twins Daily.  I don't believe Hunter is a problem on this team.  I do not think he is the difference between winning or losing this season, and I do not think that plying Hunter this year will cost us any wins in the future whatsoever.

 

We had extra money.  We needed to fill out the roster.  We have few vocal leaders.  We have few veteran hitters.  The free-agent market was week.  And we had extra money.  Is he perfect? No.  Does he solve our defensive shortcomings? No.  Is he an upgrade offensively?  Absolutely.  

[glunn]

I fail to see any basis for arguing that Hunter "conned" Ryan.  Is there any evidence that Hunter was deceptive?  It seems to me that Hunter received a rich offer and he accepted, but maybe I am missing something here.

[Richie the Rally Goat]

Just so we're clear, it isn't even 20 games into the season, right? Hunter started out pretty good last year but had an OPS beginning with a 6 near midseason before picking it back up. Last year in June -- incidentally, 20 games -- he hit just .194/.211/.278. Let's slow down just a little bit.

 

Incidentally, I think we'll find his clubhouse stuff to be appreciated by teammates after he's gone. The vibe is certainly different in there right now, whether it's because of him, Molitor, or someone else.

yeah, but the clubhouse stuff is almost always appreciated by a departing vet. That was one of the pros to Pelfrey stated earlier in his Twins career, and look at how he handled being sent to the bullpen.

 

Maybe Hunter rounds into form at the dish, but he is still a terrible signing. Look at all the goofy hoops the lineup has to go through to fake a competent outfield. There's no way he can hit enough to compensate for all three outfield positions.

[Richie the Rally Goat]

I respectfully disagree.  I heard Ryan talk about the signing.  He admitted Hunter may not be an upgrade defensively, but he stated that the free agent market wasn't loaded with outfielders that could both field AND hit.  Based on career numbers and last year's numbers, Hunter is a significant offensive upgrade, well not necessarily a downgrade defensively as we were already bad.  Who should we have signed who would take a one year deal?  I know playing prospects is a popular idea on this forum, but the average fan might be tired of the parade of failing minor leaguers.  I'd rather see Hunter try to relive the glory days than watch a never-ending carousel of Parmalee/Colabello/Hicks playing themselves out of the league one by one.  Bear in mind, most fans would rather see someone they've heard of than some fringe prospect they haven't.  Doesn't make them worse fans, and their money is just as good as ours.  Just because every hipster is guzzling down the latest greatest hop-heavy micro-brew doesn't mean the stadium should stop selling Miller Lite.  Our fan base is more than Twins Daily.  I don't believe Hunter is a problem on this team.  I do not think he is the difference between winning or losing this season, and I do not think that plying Hunter this year will cost us any wins in the future whatsoever.

 

We had extra money.  We needed to fill out the roster.  We have few vocal leaders.  We have few veteran hitters.  The free-agent market was week.  And we had extra money.  Is he perfect? No.  Does he solve our defensive shortcomings? No.  Is he an upgrade offensively?  Absolutely.

 

i very much agree with the notion of "no more Parmelee" and this is one of the best arguments I've read on the pros for signing over priced washed up old has beens. But Torii was one of the first free agent signings of the offseason. This wasn't a desperation move, and SSS he hasn't upgraded the hitting. Maybe he will upgrade the hitting over the season, but it won't be enough.

[DaveW]

I'm not sure how his numbers last year support him improving anything on this team, he posted a 0.0 WAR last year which literally means there are about 150  AAAA guys you could replace him with and get the exact same "production" overall.

His defense is atrocious at this stage of the game and he doesn't hit enough to be a viable DH (plus the Twins have plenty of DH types already) It sucks because I liked Hunter as a player but it is as clear as day he is done. If the Twins signed him for a 1 year 3 mil contract to be a bench/role/mentor player I wouldn't have an issue, but giving him big money, a spot every day in RF was and remains a huge mistake, one that isn't going to pay off this year or future years.

[Blackjack]

 

Wasn't the mantra when Hunter was signed 'there is no such thing as a bad one year contract'.  As far as I know, its still a one year contract.

 

If Hunter shouldn't be in right field, who from the minors has earned the chance??

 

[Mike Sixel]

Parade of minor leaguers?

 

For a rebuilding team, they have promoted almost no one at all the last few years. that's, you know, part of the problem.......

[Thrylos]

Hunter a "class act"?   Why?

 

for punching a teammate in the locker room?

for declining a good offer from the Twins to sign up elsewhere as a free agent?

for returning into the division and playing for the strongest team in the division?

for multiple incidents of foot in mouth disease in public forums throughout the years and attacking reporters?

 

Nope. 

 

He is not even an "aging veteran".  He is an "aged" player.  The oldest position player in the majors.  He is what he is.  And TR has a horrible habit in bringing in old ex-Twins who are over the hill.  (Kubel, Guerrier, Bartlett, Guardado v2, Trombley v2 etc) and sign geriatric players.  Nothing unusual.  

 

The numbers (and the videos and the scouting reports were out there on Hunter this off-season.)   The blame is on Ryan.  Stick a fork in him.  He is way overdone.

 

 

[bird]

 

How on earth is it premature to suggest a 39 year old outfielder might be done? Isn't that like, the opposite of premature?

First of all, it wasn't a suggestion that he MIGHT be done. I'd be in agreement with that.

 

It's just a tad premature for an all-out declaration, based on last year's offensive production. (Yeah, I know about WAR. Bill James told me.) We're 20 games into 2015. How on earth is it NOT premature to stick a fork in him already? Isn't that like, the epitome of premature?

 

 

It's obvious to all of us that he's a mere shell of what he was, and I hated the signing myself. But to declare him "done"? I'm not at all focused on Hunter, but rather on Rosario, Buxton, Hicks. Those guys haven't convinced the field staff that they'd be an immediate improvement, even though I would personally rather watch those guys struggle instead of watching a declining Hunter.

[bird]

 

Parade of minor leaguers?

 

For a rebuilding team, they have promoted almost no one at all the last few years. that's, you know, part of the problem.......

 

This statement makes no sense, mike. Almost no one at all in the past few years? 

 

1. The Twins have promoted at least 15 players from their system to the majors in the last 2-3 years. A third of the current roster in fact: Gibson, Arcia, Vargas, Herrmann, Santana, May, Thompson, and Thielbar. Hicks, Pressly, Tonkin, Achter, Pinto, Polanco, and Darnell have also made appearances.

 

2. The "rebuild" isn't done of course, and "rebuilds" include outside acquisitions. The only players still with us are Mauer, Dozier, Plouffe, and Perkins, so you're looking at 80% plus turnover in the past 2-3 years.

 

3. The next wave of promotions has been delayed, but most experts are still excited about Buxton, Sano, Polanco, Rosario, and Meyer. Doesn't it seem reasonable to hold off a bit of criticism about their promotion activity simply based on the reality that prospects dictate their own promotion schedule by virtue of their performances?

 

To say that a problem exists because they've hardly promoted anyone is just plain false. Yes, they still have to fix "part of the problem", but this is a function, you know, of how much time it takes to fix a problem that got really big in a hurry. It's not a function of inaction any way you look at it.

 

[Otto von Ballpark]

 

Last year in June -- incidentally, 20 games -- he hit just .194/.211/.278. Let's slow down just a little bit.

Last June, Hunter also missed a week for a hamstring problem.  Did that affect his numbers then?  (He was particularly bad coming back from that absence, with an OPS of .281 in his first 7 games back.)

 

 

Since he returned to MLB for good in August 2000, the only calendar months when he has posted a sub-.600 OPS have been June 2014, May 2012, and June 2011, and all three of those months he missed games due to injury.

 

Should we be concerned that he is posting these numbers when apparently healthy?

 

Hunter currently has a 51 wRC+ at Fangraphs.  8 qualified players posted equal or lower marks in April 2014, and only 1 finished the season average or better (Curtis Granderson).

[Mike Sixel]

 

This statement makes no sense, mike. Almost no one at all in the past few years? 

 

1. The Twins have "paraded" at least 15 players from their system to the majors in the last 2-3 years. A third of the current roster in fact: Gibson, Arcia, Vargas, Herrmann, Santana, May, Thompson, and Thielbar. Hicks, Pressly, Tonkin, Achter, Pinto, Polanco, and Darnell have also made appearances.

 

2. The "rebuild" isn't done of course, and "rebuilds" include outside acquisitions. The only players still with us are Mauer, Dozier, Plouffe, and Perkins, so you're looking at 80% plus turnover in the past 2-3 years.

 

To say that a problem exists because they've hardly promoted anyone is just plain false. Yes, they still have to fix "part of the problem", but this is a function, you know, of how much time it takes to fix a problem that got really big in a hurry. It's not a function of inaction any way you look at it.

 

Fair points. I don't really view it as a parade of prospects, others might disagree. I do think looking at guys that came up and failed is something I wasn't thinking of.

 

And, it was about a parade of prospects, not about veterans added to the roster......those are two different discussions.

[twinsnorth49]

Personally I think he's closer to done than not. That's my interpretation, which is really all this is about.

[SheboyganBrats]

I questioned the signing of Hunter when it occurred, and the concerns I had at the time have been borne out thus far this season.  I do think he's "done" and the Twins should have focused on signing a center fielder.  But, Ryan did the deed and we've got him for better or, most likely, the worse.  My hope is that one of the prospects in the minors-- Buxton, Hicks, Rosario, etc.-- forces himself onto the major league roster during the course of this season.  At that point, I hope Hunter is the leader the Twins say he is, and he graciously accepts a lesser role as part time player and bat off the bench.  And it would bolster my faith in Ryan, if I could believe this is what he had in mind.

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

Someone explain to me that "sweep scoop" technique he uses. A tiny bit more effort and he could be in position to make an easy feet-first slide catch or heaven forbid, and head first dive.

[dxpavelka]

We're still at the small sample size of a season.  365 days ago many were making travel plans for Chris Colabello's Hall of Fame induction ceremony.  2 days ago many were ready to bench or ship Santana out.  Now he's 4th on the team in average and hitting 25 points higher than the team average.