Article: Torii Hunter Signing Is Hard To Figure

[Nick Nelson]

Last offseason, the most head-scratching series of moves the Twins made was signing Jason Kubel, Jason Bartlett and Matt Guerrier, all of whom were aging and coming off down seasons. The strategy was apparently based on familiarity more than anything else, and the outcomes were roundly terrible.

 

On Tuesday, the Twins made their first big splash of this offseason, signing Torii Hunter to a one-year, $10.5 million deal. And while it's certainly a better move than any of those mentioned above, once again the team seems to be eschewing logic in favor of comfort, familiarity and vague intangibles.Hunter was a fixture -- THE fixture, really -- in Minnesota's run of AL Central dominance from 2002 through 2006, when they won four division titles in five years. He has continued to produce at a consistently excellent level since leaving in '07. There's no denying that he's had a fantastic career and has taken pristine care of his body.

 

But the No. 1 imperative for the Twins this offseason, if they wanted to meaningfully improve in 2015, was to find ways to prevent more runs. A contact-heavy pitching staff with a league-worst defensive outfield was a recipe for disaster needing to be addressed.

 

In theory, signing a nine-time Gold Glover would appear to do just that, but Hunter is no longer the asset in the field that he once was. Far from it.

 

I don't put a ton of stock into defensive metrics but Hunter ranked as the worst right fielder in the majors this year by both DRS (Defensive Runs Saved) and UZR (Ultimate Zone Rating), so it's probably safe to say he wasn't good.

 

Now, the Twins are evidently going to stick him in right field and move Oswaldo Arcia -- who was already a liability there due to lack of range and bad instincts -- to left, where his weaknesses are magnified by increased action and real estate.

 

The Twins aren't improving their outfield defense. Astonishingly, they are moving in the opposite direction.

 

Download attachment: hunter.jpg

 

In order for this signing to benefit them, Hunter would have to make up for that negative impact in other ways. I can't see him doing it offensively. This year he posted a .765 OPS with 17 homers and 33 doubles in 142 games, which is impressive for a 39-year-old but only slightly above average for an American League right fielder.

 

He has remained stunningly effective into his late 30s, but Hunter will turn 40 next July and is at an age where skills can deteriorate quickly. As you may recall, Jim Thome went from being an MVP-caliber hitter at 39 to out of the game at 41. Hunter will still probably bring a decent bat but it's a stretch to expect much more than that.

 

What it comes down to, then, is a word we'll probably hear tossed around a lot in discussion of this signing: mentorship. The Twins have a young club, and Hunter generally has a reputation for being a good guy who brings energy and positivity to the clubhouse.

 

I don't know how to weigh that. It's the same kind of stuff we heard from Ron Gardenhire last year in justification of Bartlett's inexplicably long leash, so I tend to downplay it. This notion that attitude is the difference between a 90-win team and a 60-win team is comically ludicrous.

 

The $10.5 million price tag is high, but that doesn't bother me -- quite to the contrary actually. They had to overpay on a one-year deal to lure their guy away from interested contenders, and for that I commend them.

 

I just feel like the Twins view Hunter as "their guy" for all the wrong reasons. Why do they need to sign a mentor/leader when they just assembled an entirely new coaching staff? Why add a 39-year-old in the twilight of his career when they're rebuilding? How does it aid Arcia's development to be playing out of position for one season before inevitably moving back to right and needing to re-adapt?

 

The Twins may still be stuck with the idea of Hunter as the player he used to be, but he's no longer a guy who hits 25 homers, steals 20 bases and tracks down everything in the outfield. He's an aging and declining version of what he was, much like the last round of reunion tour additions.

 

I can only hope things work out a whole lot better this time, but it certainly doesn't seem like the Twins learned much from that fiasco.

 

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[tobi0040]

Nailed it.

 

Two needs. Pitching and of defense. This makes both worse. Somehow.

[Steven Buhr]

Knowing the TD crew would have this topic covered well over here, I simply posted my thoughts over at Knuckleballs, rather than both sites.

 

If you care to read my thoughts, here's the link.

 

Basically, I tried to make sense of what just doesn't make much sense.

[nater79a]

If Hunter is going to be a mentor, it's hard to believe Hicks won't be on the opening day roster. Can't see the reasoning of bringing in Hunter if Hicks is sitting in AAA.

[MileHighTwinsFan]

I have to wonder if this is just the first shoe to drop in what could be other outfield moves. I have thought for awhile that Arcia is on borrowed time with the club. Could we see Arcia on the block for pitching with the Twins looking to add a legitimate left fielder?

 

Just speculation, but with Rosario close and Buxton not far behind, Arcia may be expendable.

[zwiefz]

I have to wonder if this is just the first shoe to drop in what could be other outfield moves. I have thought for awhile that Arcia is on borrowed time with the club. Could we see Arcia on the block for pitching with the Twins looking to add a legitimate left fielder? Just speculation, but with Rosario close and Buxton not far behind, Arcia may be expendable.

1)I agree completely.  Arcia is always going to be a liability in the outfield and with Vargas/Sano in the future there is only so much room for so many all bat, little glove players.  Arcia could actually net something in trade due to his age/power potential.  I just hope if you are right that he doesn't turn into this decades Big Papi.

 

2)Have the Twins said for sure Arcia will be moved instead of Hunter?  I've seen that come from a columnist/beat writer but who knows what Ryan/Molitor have in mind.  For all the talk about Molitor being more metrically based its hard to believe he would be oblivious to how bad both of them in the outfield together would be.

 

3)Would people please stop comparing Hunter to Kubel, Bartlett, and Guerrier.  Hunter was healthy and offensively productive last year(and several years prior) as compared to the huge unknown/gamble those three posed last year coming off horrible years(Kubel) or basically being out of baseball with injury(Bartlett, Guerrier)

 

4)I am all for bringing back guys like Eddie, Molitor, and Torii who can bring the 'Twins Way' back.  That used to be a source of pride, of doing all the little things right, of maximizing talent.  If this new, talented generation could be taught those things they could be amazing.  Just because the 'Twins Way' has turned into a joke in recent years doesn't mean it can't come back to life.

[Rosterman]

Even with Hunter, the Twins have basically no dependable outfield, just as they have no rotation beyond Hughes, maybe Gibson, and hopefully Nolasco. Arcia could use more seasoning. But he has a longer leash than Hicks, who could also use more seasoning at Rochester but could very well start his third year in center as the Twins need someone to run down the baseball not named Schafer. Parmelee is still in the mix, as we have to see how Vargas does in spring training and if Vargas can also play 1st base, at times. If so, by by to Chris #1 with Chris #2 going this winter and Chris #3 not even being given consideration for anything. 

 

It is a genius marketing move. The Twins fan who actually goes to the game for some sort of dreamful excitement and hopes of winning will see this as a sign from heaven and buy a season ticket package, especially with the 10% your Hunter Jersey special (and if you do it by January 15th, you get a free TwinsFest ticket AND THE OPPORTUNITY to get Hunter's autograph -- only for ST holders, by the way). DISCLAIMER: The preceding is not true, but is a possibility in marketing.

 

It's not the best time for an announcement, but probably the biggest before the winter meetings begin and will be the talk of those discussions, but most fans will watch the news tonight and before the winter meetings and just get great Twins-hype about the second coming and nothing about diminishing fielding skills.

 

But, like Mauer's salary, should NOT be a part of payroll. Not one cent. It should all be in the marketing budget, which means the Twins still have at least $30 million (counting Mauer's goodwill franchise salary) to spend on product to play on the field, not in the branding, marketing, media.

[Steven Buhr]

I have to wonder if this is just the first shoe to drop in what could be other outfield moves. I have thought for awhile that Arcia is on borrowed time with the club. Could we see Arcia on the block for pitching with the Twins looking to add a legitimate left fielder? Just speculation, but with Rosario close and Buxton not far behind, Arcia may be expendable.

Can't say I would necessarily agree with this strategy, but at least it would demonstrate that the Twins do recognize Hunter's (and Arcia's) shortcomings defensively and that having them both in the same outfield is probably not wise.

 

Whether I agree with such a plan or not, I'd take some comfort in discovering there actually was a plan being played out.

[John Bonnes]

I didn't find a perfect free agent signing for the OF, so I guess this is fine. Mostly, I wanted a one-year deal, and I didn't care if it brought defense or offense - and I had no delusions they would get both on a one-year deal.

 

I would rather he moves to left field. That seems silly.

[TheLeviathan]

Our rotation should be crying themselves into a bottle tonight.

[Dantes929]

I don't love this deal but .286 average with some decent power would still be welcome and   I am guessing Hunter replaces Willingham in left field which is a big improvement defensively.   They will still be bad but Hunter is an upgrade over Josh.   Schaefer for late inning defense and Buxton takes over and we trade Hunter at the deadline which will probably catapult the outfield to at least average with Hicks moving to left.   I don't love it especially at that price but I still think Hunter is better than no Hunter right now.  .  

[Otwins]

I hope this means that they are bringing up ALL the prospects and wanted Hunter in the clubhouse and dugout to help them learn how to play winning major league baseball. 

 

Outfield defense sucks but look at our lineup!!!

 

No Rasmus

 

I am trying to convince myself that this could be good. Someone help please

[gunnarthor]

I think everyone is putting more stock in defensive stats than needed.  Two years ago, defensive stats had Hunter as a better RF than Stanton.  Last years numbers could have a lot of noise in them - esp for playing RF in Comerica.  His RH bat might play a lot better in TF, too, if he's still a pull hitter.

Edited December 3, 2014 by gunnarthor

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

Yeah I'd bet there some noise in Torii's fielding stats. An all star outfielder wouldn't completely forget how to play outfield overnight, would he? I'd guess he just lost some range and maybe arm? The only play that stands out to me is his 2013 ALCS play crashing into the bullpen. 

 

I wasn't in favor of it but if you squint real hard this signing starts to make sense. Torii has charisma. Is in shape. Is a walking advertisement for how to earn $100 million which I'm sure could get the attention of many of the talented young guys making minimum. Agree this is a little different than the guys we signed last year. If Torii can bring yet one more slightly different voice to this thing, and maybe even *gasp* makes some plays in the outfield and lead by example--and continues to hit--then the signing should work out. And as a few guys mentioned on the other thread. The public is going to love this move. But I sure hope there's a trade brewing because I don't want to see guys like Pinto/Arcia/Vargas not getting their bats. And I like Arcia, would hate to see him go, and maybe left field will work better for him than right field has.

[h2oface]

....... Just because the 'Twins Way' has turned into a joke in recent years doesn't mean it can't come back to life.

Well, the "Twins' Way" certainly hasn't swiffered the nation, or the game.  It certainly isn't a phenomenon like the "West Coast Offense".  This move could be great, or it could be a great disappointment.  As much as I loved Torii in his days on the Twins, I hope I am surprised and this turns out good.  It is what Molitor wanted, if you can believe the media reports. Is Johan Santana next?

[DAM DC Twins Fans]

If Torii has anything left offensively, could be a good move.  Yes, OFdefense will not improve but offense may...he could help mentor Arcia and Hicks and Buxton which may be our 2016 OF...certainly better than Kubel or Bartlett last off-season.

[Paul Pleiss]

I can't wait to hear about what a great clubhouse guy Torii is, and how he's going to be a great mentor to the young guys.

 

Gag me with a spoon.

 

I quit.

[glunn]

Here is an article by someone who seems independent.

 

http://www.cbssports.com/mlb/eye-on-baseball/24860239/torii-hunter-follows-heart-back-to-minnesota-agrees-to-one-year-deal-with-twins

 

The conclusion resonates with what some of us seem to be thinking:

 

"But the signing isn't about on-field value. This is about Hunter being happy and about the Twins bringing back a fan favorite for what is likely the final stage of his career. And you know what? That is pretty darn cool. It doesn't happen often enough in this ultra-competitive era of MLB."

[ScrapTheNickname]

Can anyone supply specifics about Hunter's supposed (or apparent) drastic decline as an outfielder? In other words, what is behind the metrics, specifically?

 

Does he duck when line drives come at his face? Does he run slower? Does he take terrible routes? Is he afraid of crashing into the fence? Does he dive when he should field the ball? Has his arm strength vanished? Does he make bad decisions on which base to throw to? Does he miss the cutoff man? Does he zone out and forget how many outs there are?

 

I didn't t see him play much in 2014 so I simply don't know any answers to these questions and others I can't think of right now.

[DaveW]

Ultimately I hope that hunter can motivate/mentor hicks just like he did to span. If he can turn Hicks into a MLB starter then he earns triple his 10 mil salary this year imo

[lightfoot789]

I hope he gets to mentor Rosario; Buxton; Kepler; and of course Walker on the ins and outs of RF / CF at the major league level (during Spring Training). 

 

Hicks needs help but at least he had a .341 OBP as a Twin last year (5th best on the Twins).  Yet we say he sucks.  His upside will never be clearly defined on this team.  If Hicks hit .300 (all singles) and had the same .341 OBP we would be loving him as the next coming of Tori Hunter.  Not sure the real Hunter can help fans change their perception of Hicks.  He will be damned due to perception and expectations for the rest of his career.  We as Fans are way too judge mental on what to expect from kids before they get to define who they are themselves. IMO

[minnesota transplant]

I am totally, totally confused by this signing.  It makes absolutely NO sense! OMG

[SarasotaBill]

Signing Hunter only makes sense if:

 

- They plan to trade Arcia for pitching

 

- Or they are so desperate to teach work ethic to Arcia and Hicks

[Thrylos]

This signing makes perfect sense.  You got to look at the root cause and not the symptom:

 

Hunter was signed by the same guy who re-signed a 41 year old Paul Molitor in 1998, reunited the Twins with 35 year old Mike Trombley in 2002, Matt LeCroy in 2007, re-signed Capps in 2012, in addition to the last year's trio.  The same guy who brought old and washed out Tony Bautista and Sidney Ponson as "solutions".

 

This is how Ryan operates.   Nothing surprising there.  He just needs to go.

Edited December 3, 2014 by Thrylos

[beckmt]

I can see a few reasons for this, not saying this is correct.

1.  Molitor wants some clubhouse leadership by a respected player who is vocal.

2.  There is a wink, wink handshake agreement with Tori that if he can be traded to a team that has a decent chance for a ring the Twins will do it.

3.  If he did not sign with the Twins, it was unlikely he would be able to get his post career coaching(etc) job in the Twins organization.

[Thrylos]

I can see a few reasons for this, not saying this is correct.

1.  Molitor wants some clubhouse leadership by a respected player who is vocal.

2.  There is a wink, wink handshake agreement with Tori that if he can be traded to a team that has a decent chance for a ring the Twins will do it.

3.  If he did not sign with the Twins, it was unlikely he would be able to get his post career coaching(etc) job in the Twins organization.

 

I can see this.   But:

 

We are talking about a guy who:

a. declined an offer from the Twins and signed elsewhere and opened his mouth about how great that other team was (and returned the favor to the Angels)

b. returned to the AL Central to play for a Twins' competitor

c. punched a certain teammate in the head, while targeting another, in the Twins locker room.

d. This is a guy who has a propensity of putting his foot in his mouth and alienating teammates with his public statements.  Here, here, and here (some examples).

 

Lead by example?  Maybe, but this guy?  Not. That. Sure. 

[D. Hocking]

I can't wait to hear about what a great clubhouse guy Torii is, and how he's going to be a great mentor to the young guys.

 

Gag me with a spoon.

 

I quit.

I am sure the media will be too busy finding fresh, new stories and angles to explore than to repeat this mantra over and over again in multiple articles and radio sound bytes....

 

Or  at the very least, they will do an in-depth look of his locker room presence, positive and negative,  and not just say broad statements like he is always smiling and plays with fire.

Edited December 3, 2014 by D. Hocking

[JB_Iowa]

What happened to the Berardino speculation that the Twins wouldn't go over about $5 million?

 

$10.5m sure blows that all to h*ll.

[kab21]

Here's the problem.  Somebody needs to play OF next year for the Twins.  Rosario and Buxton need half a season in the minors.  Arcia will start on opening day but has question marks himself.  If the Twins don't bring in a veteran then they will likely have somebody starting that is terrible offensively or start utility IF'ers (Nunez) that aren't good at anything.

 

Why is Hunter perfect?

 

1 yr contract.  Most decent veterans would be able to get 2-3 (or even 4 years) at which point they are actually blocking a prospect and likely declining.  Hunter is here for a season.

 

the casual fan should enjoy this.

 

It's nice to have a couple of veterans in the lineup especially since the Twins are likely starting 6 young players with Sano, Buxton and Rosario on the way.

 

And back to the first point.  Somebody has to play in the OF.  If not Hunter then who?

[Platoon]

Mentoring, who? One of those he should be mentoring will now be in the minors (Rosario), because Torii has his spot. Hitting? No one has mentioned that he has spent several years hitting in front of Miggy. If that does not increase your diet of middle in fastballs nothing will. I wonder if he has ever cured his love of low outside sliders with men on base?

Defense? While one can argue metrics to an extent, they do point in a direction. Arcia was the third worst RF last year. My eyes would agree. Hunter was the worst.

This move will not make it any easier to sign a FA pitcher. Who want to pitch with that outfield behind them? Why don't we just move Kirby's statue into CF, that would complete the scenario! Sorry about the negativity, but I never ever thought this would really happen. Btw, in closing, his taking the money means winning means nothing to him, only the cash!