Article: Torii Hunter is Returning to the Twins

[shs_59]

WOW !!!!! 

 

READING through the comments you would of thought 90% of you're Dogs died...

 

Did Torii Hunter kill you're "mans Best Friend"

 

GREAT move and a great signing.....  Hunter will play some RF , Arcia mostly LF and some RF  and Torriii can DH..

 

KENNYS VARGAS TO AAA !!! -this is important anyway for his development...

 

Danny Santana to MLB   Kennys Vargas to AAA at least for APril/ May

[jokin]

Right, which makes all this hot air about leadership and personality really hard to swallow.  Is Torii Hunter really a better role model for professionalism than, say, Josh Willingham?  For whatever limitations Hammer had as a ball-player, the guy seemed like the consummate pro.  I certainly don't recall him dogging players publicly, talking about "real" blacks, or devising the use of Nick Punto as a punching bag for clubhouse chemistry in his time here.

 

Look, we all loved what Torii brought defensively in his initial stint.  The guy was a ton of fun to watch and his you could even handle his quirks and mistakes along the way.   

 

But the romanticism of him as a leader and a professional are pretty hollow.

 

If you wanted a guy to be a good pro and role model than sign Alex Rios or Nick Markakis.  Torii Hunter?  He's too busy "being Torii" to be any of the things we seem to think he's bringing for intangibles.

 

And that isn't even touching the concerns about the tangibles and the ridiculous overpayment that constitutes.

 

Glad to see you coming over to the dark side...., but really, how can you (or anyone, for that matter) be surprised by this move?

Don't worry, I've been out and about at night during this offseason, the cliffs in Twinsland are roped off for your protection...

Edited December 3, 2014 by jokin

[Paul Pleiss]

The next person who talks about how Torii will be such a great mentor to the younger players gets a shiv to the liver.

[twinsnorth49]

Really rather bummed by this move, count me in the camp who believes Torii's mystical leadership traits are pure hyperbole, he's a complete egotist.

 

Arguably the worst outfield defense in baseball and this is what Ryan comes up with....for 10.5......yuck.

[TheLeviathan]

None of those things are relevant to your proposal.  Maybe those things Hunter does, while horrible in your eyes, are the things that the people running the team think the locker room needs.  Maybe, with their experience around the sport, and your aversion to "the baseball codes," perhaps the people with the best knowledge of locker room dynamics and what is and isn't needed in them aren't posting on TD?

 

If the club feels we need more egotistical jerks that's fine, but let's not dress that up as "leadership". And maybe we should have found an egotistical jerk that, you know, could actually help make us better.

[KGB]

The next person who talks about how Torii will be such a great mentor to the younger players gets a shiv to the liver.

 

I think we'll need to give Mike Trout a "shiv to the liver" then.  I keep hearing from him how much he missed Hunter.

[Lonestar]

Lonestar, it is very probable that Sano will not sniff the big leagues this season. He just lost a season, and the last level he played in (AA New Britain), he hit .235. He has a lot of work to do still. Maybe the end of 2015 will be his ETA, but 2016 is more likely. TJ surgery is not as hard on a position player as it is on a pitcher, but he still has to make adjustments and get comfortable again. In my opinion he plays most of the season at AA.

I agree.  My point is: It might be better in their minds to move Arcia for Hunter than to move Arcia for Sano since they will likely have to play together more than 1 year. 

 

On a different tangent, I don't know whether to hope the Hunter signing was Pohlad's and St. Peter's idea or not.

[Mike Sixel]

The more I think about this, the more I hate it. It really reminds me of moving Young to LF to keep Cuddeyer happy, only worse. Has Arcia played LF in years or years?

 

Why would any FA pitcher sign here, other than money, with this OF defense in front of them?

 

Maybe their new plan is to just score a lot, and not worry about run prevention at all.

[KGB]

Typical Ryan move, he can't not wait out a market.  At this point, nobody else probably would accept a 1 year deal, so he signed the only player who would accept the offer now.  In a couple months, he would be able to get better players for less money, but it's just the way Ryan works. 

[Otto von Ballpark]

I think we'll need to give Mike Trout a "shiv to the liver" then. I keep hearing from him how much he missed Hunter.

Missing isn't the same as mentorship, I would say.

[Otto von Ballpark]

I still don't like it, but we all knew/assumed it was coming.

Did we? I remember the main defense of the Doogie rumor was the assumption that we were lowballing him for a platoon or backup role. I remember some criticism of Doogie and Twitter in general for advancing such a misleading rumor, that the defensively challenged Twins would actually pursue Hunter as a top priority.

 

I know it wasn't you who posted things like that, but those opinions explain why many of us here are flabbergasted by this move.

[GCTF]

I look forward to the Twins winning 70.3 games this season.

[dougkoebernick]

I love the complete overreaction here. It's fun to read. 

 

I've been against the Twins signing Hunter all offseason too. I do think the Leadership angle, which will be a mantra, is overrated. We know his defense isn't great. The biggest thing that bugs me is that it's moving Arcia to left field.

 

That said, it's not the end of the world. He's been very good for a long time. Is he going to be work $10 million again? Maybe not, though he certainly could be. I know his range is down, but he'll make the plays he gets to, and he'll certainly get to more than some of their outfielders got last year. 

 

I like the one-year aspect of it. $10.5M is, well, who cares? It's not like it'll stop them from signing anyone else that might come here. Rasmus probably would be signed for 3-4 years.

 

Rosario isn't ready. He had a nice showing in the AFL that is encouraging, but he's likely not going to be up before July. Who knows? If he plays half-way well, he could be traded for something.  

 

Definitely not the end of the world, the sky isn't falling or anything like that. 

As always, Seth makes the most sense in summarizing this move by the Twins. I couldn't agree more.  The one thing I'll throw out is that my Vikings have a child abuser and now my Twins have a homophobe.  This doesn't impact the way he plays but if by chance there are any gay players in the clubhouse it could make things a bit uncomfortable.  I've always enjoyed watching Torii play and over the years we have had Torii posters in our house but I sure wish he would keep his mouth quiet once in awhile.  Even though he has the right to say what he believes he does make me cringe.

[tobi0040]

I just love how we can talk ourselves into anything, as long as it is a one or two year deal.  Or at least....who cares? It is only a one year deal.

Last year, we had 16% of our roster spots and 16% of payroll locked into the following four players:

Pelfrey    7.99 ERA   $5.5M

Correia    4.94 ERA    $5M

Kubel   .607 OPS     $2M

Guerrier    3.86 ERA   $1M

 

Next year, we will have at least $16.5M locked into Hunter and Pelfrey and we are just getting started.  I see another $5-8M going to another re-tread pitcher.  That will likely be about 26% of payroll in three players that are not any good. Keith Law called Hunter, “barely above replacement level”.  I would argue the only one of the four last year that sniffed replacement level was Guerrier.

 

The old saying goes you can’t have 20-25% of payroll devoted to one star player and win a world series.  Well I would counter that you can’t have 20-25% of your payroll and the same amount of your roster spots devoted to replacement players or worse and win 80 games.   And give me one stud and three rookies over four of these types all day.

 

There is no difference between a long term contract and perpetually having short term deals on your books.  We can say well we can't sign Jon Lester because he wants a six year deal. The years are really scary.  If he is good for four years and terrible for the last two, than his production over the life of that deal will surpass the coalition of 30 year old re-treads we will sign over that period even if his arm falls off at some point.

Edited December 3, 2014 by tobi0040

[Riverbrian]

Hunter was one of my all time favorite Twins. He would literally run through a catcher in a mid season game to score a run. I don't ever recall seeing less than his best effort, day after day. There's value in that, tangible and intangible.

 

I agree with this and this is the kind of leadership that I'm looking for. We haven't had this type of player since Torii left us. I have no idea what is happening in the clubhouse... So there is no way I know who leads what and who doesn't.

 

On the field... I haven't seen a "I'm gonna plow you over... Bust a pitch inside... Spit nails" type player since he left.

 

When it comes to defense.. I never thought Hunter was that rangy even when they used to call him Spider-Man in his youth. But... But... There is no way that I will pay an ounce of attention to the yearly pinball that is defensive metrics.

 

The ball will come his way and Torii will catch it.

 

Everyone should be praying for bat speed and continued possession of it. When that goes... That's when it gets ugly.

 

I'm fine with Hunter for a year... Now get some pitching please!!!

[KGB]

Missing isn't the same as mentorship, I would say.

http://m.angels.mlb.com/news/article/40262584/

 

Torii Hunter played a big part in helping Mike Trout bounce back from an up-and-down 40-game stint in the Majors in 2011 to become one baseball's best at age 21. Hunter helped Trout grow as a center fielder, as a hitter, as a man.

Now Trout is starting to come to grips with the reality that his biggest mentor probably won't be back with the Angels next season.

"I've been calling him, wishing him the best of luck," Trout said on a conference call Monday, shortly after being named the unanimous winner of the American League's Rookie of the Year Award. "It doesn't look like he's coming back. I've been just thanking him. Even if he plays for another team, I'm sure I'll still be able to call him and keep this friendship going. He's just an incredible guy."

[Mike Sixel]

Let's just say that there are a lot of people that aren't sure Hunter is a great guy, and that must be a fair topic, if the "pro" crowd is going to keep bringing it up. 

[Mike Sixel]

I still don't get how this helps Arcia's long term development as an OF.......

[tobi0040]

http://m.angels.mlb.com/news/article/40262584/

 

Torii Hunter played a big part in helping Mike Trout bounce back from an up-and-down 40-game stint in the Majors in 2011 to become one baseball's best at age 21. Hunter helped Trout grow as a center fielder, as a hitter, as a man.

Now Trout is starting to come to grips with the reality that his biggest mentor probably won't be back with the Angels next season.

"I've been calling him, wishing him the best of luck," Trout said on a conference call Monday, shortly after being named the unanimous winner of the American League's Rookie of the Year Award. "It doesn't look like he's coming back. I've been just thanking him. Even if he plays for another team, I'm sure I'll still be able to call him and keep this friendship going. He's just an incredible guy."

 

He won the MVP award and received every first place vote this year with Hunter in Detroit.  

 

He had an OPS of .988 with 27 HR and 33 SB in 2013 with Hunter in Detroit.  As a 21 year old.

 

This mentor thing is wildly over-rated in sports and the least relevant in baseball, IMO.  When a ball is hit at Aaron Hicks, he needs to get it.  When he is in the batters box, it is him versus the pitcher.

[jokin]

Let's just say that there are a lot of people that aren't sure Hunter is a great guy, and that must be a fair topic, if the "pro" crowd is going to keep bringing it up. 

 

It's indeed perplexing, Ryan and Molitor are the ones who have put their big money, and first-move-as-manager signature and reputation on how they perceive the value of Hunter- the man, fan favorite and mentor figure valued at least as much, if not more, than for what he brings to the team in terms of production.

Edited December 3, 2014 by jokin

[jokin]

 

 

This mentor thing is wildly over-rated in sports and the least relevant in baseball, IMO.  

 

Ryan and Molitor obviously are diametrically opposed to your opinion.

[tobi0040]

Ryan and Molitor obviously are diametrically opposed to your opinion.

 

I can't argue with you there.  But I thought the draw to Molitor was that he was this really smart guy that had a great relationship with the young players and relates well to everyone.

 

You have spring training and a ton of ex-Twins there.  You have I think six coaches for 25 position players on ther roster.  How many mentors do we need?

[jokin]

I can't argue with you there.  But I thought the draw to Molitor was that he was this really smart guy that had a great relationship with the young players and relates well to everyone.

 

You have spring training and a ton of ex-Twins there.  You have I think six coaches for 25 position players on ther roster.  How many mentors do we need?

 

I'm not disagreeing with you overall.  As far as Molitor goes, I would suspect that he's looking for guys to fill his former role, as he now must delegate some of the mentor role.  I also suspect that Molitor told Ryan that his biggest takeaway on 2014 as a coach was that there's a big lack of a clubhouse leadership presence from the veteran contingent.  Thus, this signing became Priority #1 for the offseason.

[tobi0040]

I'm not disagreeing with you overall.  As far as Molitor goes, I would suspect that he's looking for guys to fill his former role, as he now must delegate some of the mentor role.  I also suspect that Molitor told Ryan that his biggest takeaway on 2014 as a coach was that there's a big lack of a clubhouse leadership presence from the veteran contingent.  Thus, this signing became Priority #1 for the offseason.

 

I have a crazy idea.  Instead of making our #1 priority a 40 year old RF making $10.5M, lets just add another coach at $300K a year to mentor

[jokin]

I have a crazy idea.  Instead of making our #1 priority a 40 year old RF making $10.5M, lets just add another coach at $300K a year to mentor

 

Gotta think big, like the big leaguers do (from Mackey's article that I just found):

 

 

 

It's safe to say we'll be in wait-and-see mode with Hunter's on-field production, but I can tell you this:                 People in the Twins organization are enamored with the idea that Hunter can come in and help change a clubhouse environment that has mostly lacked leadership and direction over the past couple years.                                                                                                                                                                                                  Talent and pitching remain the two biggest deficiencies on the major league roster, but an overall direction and sense of what it takes to perform at a higher collective percentile as a team are areas the Twins badly want to address behind the scenes. This is a big part of why Paul Molitor replaced Ron Gardenhire.                                                                              As one source with knowledge of the clubhouse dynamic put it to me before the Hunter signing, "We need some veteran presence in the clubhouse and dugout to get on guys every once in a while, and we don't have it yet... We need a change of mentality."

Edited December 3, 2014 by jokin

[tobi0040]

Gotta think big, like the big leaguers do (from Mackey's article that I just found):

 

I think this brings up a broader point.  If we have 25 guys that are OK with losing and constantly need a kick in the tail.....maybe we are not drafting and signing the right kinds of guys.

[Mike Sixel]

I think this brings up a broader point.  If we have 25 guys that are OK with losing and constantly need a kick in the tail.....maybe we are not drafting and signing the right kinds of guys.

 

Or that the minors aren't doing their job in developing the right attitude.

 

Look, I believe in leadership. I believe culture makes a difference. I just don't believe that it matters more than talent, skill, training. I do think, that if Hunter is a great leader, it makes a difference. But, if NOT ONE guy on the roster can do that now......that's a failure of the development staff, imo.

[REPETE]

 

I can't argue with you there.  But I thought the draw to Molitor was that he was this really smart guy that had a great relationship with the young players and relates well to everyone.

 

You have spring training and a ton of ex-Twins there.  You have I think six coaches for 25 position players on ther roster.  How many mentors do we need?

It's like a child hearing something from a parent, or me teaching my wife to golf. If I point something out, I'm a moron and know nothing. If a friend says the exact same thing, in the exact same manner, it's like the word of God being spoken. There's some things that respected players can "coach" that will be heeded 1000X more than a coach saying it.

[Mike Sixel]

 

 

It's like a child hearing something from a parent, or me teaching my wife to golf. If I point something out, I'm a moron and know nothing. If a friend says the exact same thing, in the exact same manner, it's like the word of God being spoken. There's some things that respected players can "coach" that will be heeded 1000X more than a coach saying it.

 

this is true.....especially the spouse golf thing, sigh.....

[PseudoSABR]

Culture matters in all organizations that have people working closely together.  Whether you want to call that leadership or not, I'm not sure; but it's clear Hunter will bring a strong personality to clubhouse.  And it's also pretty clear he's invested.  That some here would impugn Hunter's character because they dislike his personality and antics, seems pretty extreme given that our only access to him is through the media, as opposed to instances when leadership might actually matter.

 

If Torii really is a jerk; and the Twins executives really are empty-headed sentimentalists, why come to Minnesota? There are reports that Texas offered more and clearly present a better chance to win.  Why come to Minnesota? So he can bilk Minnesota fans who unwittingly adore him?  Because losing isn't bad if you're well-liked?  The answers to these questions seem awfully cynical and specious, if we discount the reasons Hunter actually says he came here.  

Edited December 3, 2014 by PseudoSABR