Sano to the Outfield

[Steven Buhr]

Niko Goodrum played 3B this year. 

 

I definitely say keep Plouffe, and keep Sano at 3B as well. If it starts looking like Plouffe is a star at 3B, then get Sano some time in LF and RF in the minors at that point, but definitely keep him playing 3B.

Yeah I was including Goodrum among the middle infielders that could probably play 3B. I just don't see him as a prototypical 3B offensively.

[Platoon]

Seth, you commented that Sano has a better arm than Plouffe. I'm pretty sure Plouffe throws in the 90's, so I'm not sure where you're coming from.

 

Anyway. Sano to LF might be a good solution. Either Plouffe or Sano in LF will be average, while I can almost guarantee Plouffe is a better 3b. I don't think Ryan is talking about a permanent move here. In 2015, if Sano's bat is ready, he can play adequate LF then why hold him back? Have him play LF for a season until Kepler or Rosario are ready to come up then you can trade Plouffe before he gets expensive. Or, *gasp* trade one of them to help get the MLB team better. 

 

I really don't think it is a big deal. Rookies should have to earn the right to a certain position and pick-up AB's where they can. I see this a a completely different deal than moving a SS to CF half-way through the year because he's your only option. This is all hypothetical, so unless it happens we can't really complain about it.

I have both Sano and Plouffe throw in person. Sano has a cannon. A comparison would be The difference between Santana and Escobar from SS. And as for wheels, he ain't no Vargas!

[Platoon]

Good grief!!!!!  Sano stays at 3rd.  Get rid of Plouffe.  He and Willingham in a foot race would end up in a tie.  If so many TD posters think Plouffe is that great, maybe someone else in the baseball world also does, and would take him.

Two simple questions. Who is going to be of more value to the Twins by mid 2016? And who wants to see this last two years OF replicated?

[Platoon]

Sounds like Plouffe is in line to win some awards as the most underappreciated Twin. 

 

What'd that guy do wrong?  Not live up to hitting 18 homers every month and half like in 2012?

Nothing wrong with Plouffe. But he is another average player on a team of average players. His problem is that there is a top 5 prospect in the wings on a team looking to the future. To me there seems only two possibilities here. Either the Buxtons, Sanos, Santana's, Arcias, and Vargas's of the world start playing and contributing, or the Twins are in the 4th year of a ten year rebuild.

[stringer bell]

Good comparison to the Marlins when Miggy was a rookie.  Lowell was a solid 3B and the Marlins wanted Cabrera's bat in the lineup.  If Sano is ready, then maybe he can play outfield for a while.  If Sano bombs in left, switch it up.  If Plouffe reverts to a less than average player, Sano moves in as the regular at third. 

[jay]

Nothing wrong with Plouffe. But he is another average player on a team of average players. His problem is that there is a top 5 prospect in the wings on a team looking to the future. To me there seems only two possibilities here. Either the Buxtons, Sanos, Santana's, Arcias, and Vargas's of the world start playing and contributing, or the Twins are in the 4th year of a ten year rebuild.

I agree those guys need to contribute to move past the rebuild. I don't understand how or why that means trashing the guy who had the second best season on the team. The Twins need MORE players who can contribute a season like Plouffe just did, not less. If Plouffe was average, we had plenty of below average performers elsewhere.

 

If Plouffe doesn't maintain his production, then you look at Sano to overtake him. That hasn't happened yet and is nowhere near a guarantee.

 

Let's also not forget that the offense wasn't the problem this year. By every account I've seen, it was the pitching and outfield defense. Plouffe was neither of those problems and dumping him fixes neither.

 

We also have a glaring gap in one of the OF corners. Why wouldn't you put a prospect who has questionable defense at 3B but plenty of bat and is supposedly a great athlete in position to fill that hole?

[DocBauer]

Isn't it funny what has taken place since this time last season? Not everyone, of course, but a lot of people were already penciling Sano as the Twins 2014 3B with Plouffe moving to the OF, a utility role, or out of Minnesota altogether. Now, Plouffe improves to at least average defensively, maybe even a little above, and has the best overall season in his ML career, Sano has TJ surgery and misses the year, and suddenly Sano can't play 3B for whatever reason, and Plouffe should stick at 3B. And I want to just smack my head against the wall and cry out, "what?".

 

First, Sano was a good enough athlete when signed that he was a SS, with accurate projections of growing out of the position. He's worked very hard on his defense and has had a number of positive reports on his improving defense and cannon of an arm. Second, even if it takes time for full strength to return, a "cannon" of an arm reduced slightly, would still be a strong arm. And there is no tangible evidence at this point that his arm won't be just as strong immediately, if not eventually. Third, he's not a pitcher trying to regain control of his fastball or feel for breaking pitches. Lastly, an athletic big man with strong arm and good work ethic who was good enough defensively to actually play SS a few years ago shouldn't be dismissed as a defensive 3B just because of his size. Remember, if he is around 250lbs, maybe, maybe not, he's got a tall, broad frame and seems to wear his size well. Never seen him in person, but I tell you, from every picture I've ever seen of the kid, he wears his weight very well.

 

There have been 3B who never mature defensively for one reason or another, who find success at another position. But it's silly and way too early to just assume Sano can't be a ML 3B. Could he struggle a bit at first? Of course. I've seen very few 3B who hit the majors as elite defenders right out of the gate. Even in the Twins history, Gaetti and Koskie, not a small man himself, were only OK at the position their first couple of seasons. A potentially elite bat like Sano is even more valuable at the hot corner. Now, that doesn't mean EVENTUALLY he couldn't slow down and a move be warranted, think Thome, but now is not the time.

 

You keep Plouffe for now, unless some tremendous trade opportunity comes along. Plouffe could be even better next season, overall, and the possibility of that happening isn't exactly a remote possibility. And as Riverbrian stated, having the luxury of multiple players to contend with is a GOOD THING.

[Richie the Rally Goat]

This is the point I always try to make, and part of the reason that I do think that he can stick at third base. First and foremost, none of us saw him throughout 2014, so we don't know where he's at. At spring training, he was 6-4, 258 pounds. Sounds big, and it is, but he isn't the plodding type that I think many envision. He's not Kennys Vargas out there. I've seen him score from first on a double, and he really gets going. I'd compare him to Michael Cuddyer, who wasn't fast, and it took him a while to get going, but once he started, he could move pretty well. 

 

I also will say this, I think that he is athletic enough to play the outfield. As you mention though, it's some of the non-routine types of plays that he hasn't seen often that would be the concern. 

 

But, Plouffe took a major step forward defensively in 2014, and some with the bat. He can play the position as well. He just doesn't have Sano's arm.

Sano might not have Sano's arm either

[jay]

But it's silly and way too early to just assume Sano can't be a ML 3B.

Could Sano end up being decent or even good defensively at 3B? Sure. The part I don't think you've addressed is how he plays 3B if your scenario about Plouffe maintaining or improving holds true. If that's the case, don't you get Sano in the lineup as a corner OFer? Why not do that now?

 

A potentially elite bat like Sano is even more valuable at the hot corner.

This is the aspect of 'positional value' that fails, IMO. If Sano ends up in the OF because the Twins have a decent/good 3B but a gap in the OF, Sano is worth less? Team context is lost in making those kinds of valuations. This is coming from a guy who places a lot of value in advanced metrics...

[Madre Dos]

Miguel stayed at my home in 2011 when he played for Elizabethton.  He was on third, fielded the ball and was attempting to throw to Kennys Vargas who was playing 1st base.  His throw was so wild it hit my husband who was taking pictures behind the 1st base dugout.  That was 3 seasons ago and his fielding and throwing accuracy have improved. They have moved Eddie Rosario back to the OF from 2nd base.  How many OF do they need?

[GoGonzoJournal]

This is news to me because I was under the impression the front office felt Sano's athleticism and arm would allow him to stick at third base, but I totally agree with most of the Twins Daily crowd that Ryan is thinking about this in the right way. After Plouffe's vast improvement defensively, it would be difficult to explain to fans why Sano gets the spot and Plouffe has to make the move. If you remember recent Twins history, though, it's commonplace for infielders to become outfielders in their later years due to a loss of range. See Michael Cuddyer. Something tells me Sano will be better than average at the hot corner someday. He was athletic enough to play shortstop, so I think he'll stick at third, eventually. If you want him in the lineup and don't have a DH spot, though, the outfield is completely reasonable. See Danny Santana.

[Platoon]

I agree those guys need to contribute to move past the rebuild. I don't understand how or why that means trashing the guy who had the second best season on the team. The Twins need MORE players who can contribute a season like Plouffe just did, not less. If Plouffe was average, we had plenty of below average performers elsewhere.

If Plouffe doesn't maintain his production, then you look at Sano to overtake him. That hasn't happened yet and is nowhere near a guarantee.

Let's also not forget that the offense wasn't the problem this year. By every account I've seen, it was the pitching and outfield defense. Plouffe was neither of those problems and dumping him fixes neither.

We also have a glaring gap in one of the OF corners. Why wouldn't you put a prospect who has questionable defense at 3B but plenty of bat and is supposedly a great athlete in position to fill that hole?

I was not trashing Ploufe. (If I do trash someone it wil be obvious). But I should have been more precise. Until the Twins get a competent CF and LF their ERA's are not going too far south. I am not a pitch to contact guy, but it's what we currently have. We just did the SS in the outfield thing. And the God knows who in left thing. So maybe I am just weary from watching fly balls land like hailstones, outfield fences being treated like they were electrified, and cutoff men being missed like a Ponder wide receiver. I don't think either Plouffe or Sano will solve that. it just seems putting Sano in LF is another Santana type idea. It's a year later. No one is sure if he can play SS. And unless Sano is lights out in LF, we will be wondering the same thing about Sano in 2016. We been dere, done dat. Btw, Plouffe is not a (the) problem. He just happens to be standing in the wrong place at the wrong time.

[Brock Beauchamp]

I'm ok with him moving positions if it's best for Sano, but any decision on his long-term future should only be made with that in mind.  Plouffe is irrelevant.

Absolutely, with that caveat that if Sano's bat is ready but his glove isn't, working him into MLB at the less-demanding LF position with spot starts at 3B isn't a terrible idea. If he starts to show competency at 3B, then move him there and do whatever with Plouffe. Trevor is a nice player to have around but he can't hinder the progress of a guy like Sano.

[lightfoot789]

What message would the Twins be sending to the Keplers; Walkers; & Harrisons on next years AA team if they put Sano in a crowded outfield with Buxton as well.  Somebody's progresss would come to a halt and not just slow down.  Even if Sano and Buxton move on (AAA / MLB) by midseason, The other 3 will be losing major reps.  Somebody (Kepler/Walker/Harrison) probably would be better off traded or you are truly wasting a potential talent in a crowed outfield.  One of those 3 is going to be a major outfield contributor at the MLB level. 

 

In terms of Buxton in the outfield - Cedar Rapids (2013) and Fort Myers (2014) were solid defensivelyin the outfield each of those years.  To the point of having the best record in each league.  Buxton can help any outfield is my point.  And even without Buxton, those other 3 guys were pretty damn good all season in making the plays they were expected to make.  They are all fundamentally sound which should make thier bats more valuable at the next level.  They might not win you games in the outfield, but they won't lose you games either.

[nicksaviking]

Yeah I was including Goodrum among the middle infielders that could probably play 3B. I just don't see him as a prototypical 3B offensively.

 

Yes, I hope Goodrum's move to 3B was soley for the development of Polanco.  Goodrum did split SS duties with Anderlin Mejia once Polanco got promoted.  Goodrum has next to no prospect luster if he remains at 3B, though a .672 OPS doesn't look good at any position.  Let's hope it's just due to the curse of the Florida State League.

[Linus]

Well, I guess I shouldn't have started this thread because in the St. Paul paper this morning TR said he has no plans to shift Sano to the outfield.  Rather, when the question was asked it was "could" Sano play the oufield, as in was athletic enough, to which TR affirmed that yes, in fact, he was a good enough athlete to play there. 

 

A little context is important I guess.  Not surprising that the St. Paul paper is the one that actually reports the scenario accurately.

[Linus]

Oh and one more little tidbit in the article that may ruffle a few TD feathers......

 

Ryan flatly stated that Sano will not be in the big leagues next year.

[tobi0040]

I agree those guys need to contribute to move past the rebuild. I don't understand how or why that means trashing the guy who had the second best season on the team. The Twins need MORE players who can contribute a season like Plouffe just did, not less. If Plouffe was average, we had plenty of below average performers elsewhere.

 

If Plouffe doesn't maintain his production, then you look at Sano to overtake him. That hasn't happened yet and is nowhere near a guarantee.

 

Let's also not forget that the offense wasn't the problem this year. By every account I've seen, it was the pitching and outfield defense. Plouffe was neither of those problems and dumping him fixes neither.

 

We also have a glaring gap in one of the OF corners. Why wouldn't you put a prospect who has questionable defense at 3B but plenty of bat and is supposedly a great athlete in position to fill that hole?

 

I don't get the trashing of our second best player last year either (by WAR).  If we kept Plouffe and his 3.5-4 WAR at 3B, think of these two possibilities.

 

Sano in Left field - Melky had an OPS of .808 and a WAR of 3.1.  Brantley had an OPS of .890 with a WAR of 7.  Hopefully Sano falls somewhere in the middle.

 

Buxton in CF - Adam Eaton had an OPS of .763 and a WAR of 5.2. This seems realistic for Buxton.

 

Having a WAR in the 14 range for 3 players seems like a good start.

[tobi0040]

Oh and one more little tidbit in the article that may ruffle a few TD feathers......

 

Ryan flatly stated that Sano will not be in the big leagues next year.

 

Terry said Sano will not START the season in the big leagues.  Big difference.

[Linus]

Terry said Sano will not START the season in the big leagues.  Big difference.

You better read the article:

"probably won't be in the big leagues until 2016"

 

"But it is unrealistic to think he'll be up here next year"

[tobi0040]

You better read the article:

"probably won't be in the big leagues until 2016"

 

"But it is unrealistic to think he'll be up here next year"

 

I stand corrected. His tone changed since the call a few days prior.  But I don't see any way he is NOT in the big leagues next year.  This could be management trying to lower the bar. Similar to St. Peters comments earlier.  Or we maybe parsing this WAY too much

[Linus]

I stand corrected. His tone changed since the call a few days prior.  But I don't see any way he is NOT in the big leagues next year.  This could be management trying to lower the bar. Similar to St. Peters comments earlier.  Or we maybe parsing this WAY too much

Well, TR is pretty much a straight shooter - I don't think he plays too many word games with anyone.  My guess is that is what he truly believes.  Certainly doesn't mean that if Sano completely tears up AAA that he couldn't get a call up later in the year but all the fantasizing about Sano starting with the Twins clearly ain't happening, nor is a call up after the Super Two deadline.

[iTwins]

I'd only move Sano to LF for two reasons:

 

1) He proves he cannot handle 3B defensively

2) Plouffe becomes the next Evan Longoria

 

Right now, Plouffe is a quality player giving the Twins solid production. However, I don't think you block a potential elite player simply to keep the quality guy in the same spot. If Sano comes up and handles the job like he's expected to - you move Plouffe to the OF or to the bench.

[Brock Beauchamp]

I stand corrected. His tone changed since the call a few days prior.  But I don't see any way he is NOT in the big leagues next year.  This could be management trying to lower the bar. Similar to St. Peters comments earlier.  Or we maybe parsing this WAY too much

That's my thinking as well. Better to temper expectations and let people be pleasantly surprised than the opposite.

[tobi0040]

Well, TR is pretty much a straight shooter - I don't think he plays too many word games with anyone.  My guess is that is what he truly believes.  Certainly doesn't mean that if Sano completely tears up AAA that he couldn't get a call up later in the year but all the fantasizing about Sano starting with the Twins clearly ain't happening, nor is a call up after the Super Two deadline.

 

I don't know.  He does say he has no payroll limits every off-season.

 

Sano was on a 51 HR pace at AA two years ago (19 in 59 games).  I am guessing June.

[Steven Buhr]

What do you suppose Ryan's response would have been a year ago if he had been asked what the chances were that Kennys Vargas would be with the Twins in 2014?

[Mike Sixel]

The message they would be sending is that the best players will play......

 

By the logic in this thread, Bryce Harper would still be in AA learning to catch. Sano should be up when his bat is ready. 3B or OF or DH or 1B, I don't care. But if he's going to bomb 25+ homers and hit over 250, he should be up.

[tobi0040]

 

By the logic in this thread, Bryce Harper would still be in AA learning to catch. Sano should be up when his bat is ready. 3B or OF or DH or 1B, I don't care. But if he's going to bomb 25+ homers and hit over 250, he should be up.

 

I get your point to an extent, but Harper is a poor example.  He was a catcher when he was drafted at 17.  But nobody thought he was going to be a big league catcher.  He was actually announced as an outfielder on draft day.

 

If ensuring we get Sano in the right spot and set him up for success means he is delayed 2 months, I don't think it is the end of the world.  In the words of Jim Collins, you have to get the right people on the bus, and ensure they are all in the right seats.  We got Santana on the bus before anyone thought, but in a seat he has no chance at sitting in long term.

 

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=5262217

[Mike Sixel]

Not true, lots of people thought he could stick at C, but Washington rightly decided to move him day 1 because they wanted his bat up quickly.

 

Again, people aren't saying "2 months", they are saying "when he's ready to field 3B". What if that takes a year or 2?

[Mike Sixel]

From the article you linked:

 

"We're going to take the rigor and the pressures of learning the position, the difficult position of catcher, away from him," Rizzo said, "and really let him concentrate on the offensive part of the game and let his athleticism take over as an outfielder."

 

In other words, stop worrying about positional value, and get his bat up ASAP.