How to evaluate a coach

[Paul Pleiss]

When you're looking at young baseball players, it's pretty easy for a seasoned scout, or even amateur, to get a good idea of what their skill level is at and (with a little more difficulty) where that skill could project to be in 5 years as a player ages and advances through baseball levels. There are 5 (arguably 6) tools for a player.

 

But what about for coaches/managers? Is it strictly wins and losses? I don't think it's that black and blue. Maybe it should be, especially after four seasons of 90+ losses.

 

Here's what I want to know, specifically about Rick Anderson (whom I find detestable as a pitching coach) and to a lesser extent Ron Gardenhire and some others on the Twins staff).

Attitude: what is Rick Anderson like on a day to day basis with the players?

Communication (instructive or corrective at wrong times?) How are his communication skills? Does he speak in abstract terms, or can he be specific and enticing, getting his message past obstacles for the listener?

Energy giver vs Energy Sucker: Does Rick Anderson suck... the life ouf of his players, or does he give them the extra pep talk or word of confidence to push them ahead?

Is he/she morally and ethically above reproach? Does he need to be? As long as he's not Ray Rice, we're probably safe here, this goes back to my first question of attitude. Do his actions support his attitude and the talk he's giving, or is he a hypocrit?

Competency (Can he/she teach?) What does Rick Anderson do to make players better. We've seen a lof of pitchers come to Minnesota and give up less walks. We've also seen them get less strike outs. And we've seen guys fail here and then go on to success. Who gets credit for Johan Santana? Johan? Cuellar? Anderson? Is Rick a good teacher? From the reports we hear from ex-Twins pitchers, I'm not so sure. I'd love to talk with Jared Burton, Ricky Nolasco, or another veteran player who has been around the league about Anderson and the pitching coaches. Can they teach?

 

Sources of knowledge. (Does he know what he's talking about?) Does Rick Anderson know how to pitch effectively at the MLB level. The better way is for the pitching instructor to understand what is causing the problem, and have the pitcher make the needed adjustment. Can Rick Anderson recognize a short stride, inconsistent weight shift? Does he? Honest question.

 

Video. Does Rick Anderson use video to help pitchers find their own flaws? I have to believe the Twins do, but really, what does a day with Rick Anderson as the pitching coach look like?

 

Delivery Styles. With so many different and personalized deliveries, how can anyone, how DOES Rick Anderson, find flaws in guys delivery?

 

I'm not a fan or Rick Anderson, but maybe I just don't know enough to make an informed decision.

 

Or maybe he's just a bad pitching coach.

[diehardtwinsfan]

Some day, I suspect that there will be some sort of WAR based stat for coaches. I think they are much like players in that they can add wins/losses to a team over the course of a year. I think most of that falls on the manager, but baseball is a game of adjustments, and a good coach will be able to help his/her players adjust better when baseball adjusts to them. I'm not sure how that quantifies Anderson. I'm sure he has a pitching philosophy, and I'm guessing it plays to the strenghts of guys like Hughes whereas it plays up to the weaknesses of other players.

 

I'd also add that decent coaches should have a good influence on the locker room. I get that winning cures a lot of illnesses, but even when things are going well, some people don't get along. Good coaches have a way of making that aspect of things better... or at least I'd hope they do.

[The Wise One]

Take the case of Worley. He can rip on the Twin's coaching. Was he told about his mechanics and he ignored it? Did the Pittsburg coaches say something to him that he ignored. The person who told him he was flying open was not a coach. When the mere mortals spot something, you ought to think a little.. Worley did. No coach is going to throw him under the bus, it doesn't do them any good. You really don't know how good a coach is unless they are exceptional. Well, most coaches are not exceptional. Very few are. Cuellar and Anderson fit the commoner category. They could be very good, but not exceprtional.  Duncan was exceptional.

[gunnarthor]

A few years ago, HBT tried to measure managers using bullpen usage, how players performed before and after leaving and record in one run games.  Gardy came out #1.

[Paul Pleiss]

My question, more than trying to bash Anderson, is how do you evaluate a coach, and more specifically, a pitching coach. I know Gardy loves Rick, and that they are essentially a pair, but I can't think of a pitching coach who has gone through 2, let alone 4 terrible seasons and kept his job. The Pohlads love to stay with their guys, but I think enough is enough.

 

If Rick Anderson is a good pitching coach, I feel like we'd hear more coming out from players. We hear guys rip on him, which could be bitterness, but we don't hear guys praising him. so mabye you're right, Gunnarthor, maybe he's just average. This team deserves better than average. This fanbase deserves better.

[The Wise One]

How can a fan figure out how well a coach prepares a player How much of what the coach does is his thing versus the desires of management above him? 

There is praise for what Pittsburg is doing with starters on another thread. Sinkerball pitchers and high GB% was what the Twins have tried to do for the last decade when there wasn't a Johan around to start.  Anderson's starters had a decent 2010. Was it Anderson, or the pitchers? 2012 was bad. Was it Anderson or the pitchers? Did Anderson forget how to coach. Look at 2010. Pretty much most of the regular starters had one of their best years Did Anderson have nothing to do with it?As an observer of the game from a distance I can't judge the effect of a coach. I have been around people who are very good at thier proffession and some that were not. Some will not give praise to those who helped make them good. Some can not be told a whole heck of a lot because they know it all. I can't imagine that ball players would be any different

[Paul Pleiss]

But how can we evaluate pitching coaches if not by the success or failure of their pitchers? Fair or unfair?

 

Obviously Rick Anderson has coached some great years of Twins pitching, but also some clunkers. His true talent as a coach probably lies somewhere in between. "You can't polish a turd," and so on and so forth, but what I'm after is HOW CAN WE EVALUATE A PITCHING COACH?

 

I don't know. Maybe we can't find the difference between a good and bad coach, but surely we can sense that Rick is not great. And if we know he's not great, are we also willing to say that he's significantly better than whoever else gets brought in?

 

It's a chance I'd take. Heck, I'd bring in new guys everywhere.

 

I think my biggest issue is that if you have a guy, or an org who teaches x really well, eventually everyone will probably be good at doing x and will be able to recognize when someone is not doing x and help them do it. But it may, and likely will, create a organizational perspective that then begins to miss y and z. They continue to do x well, which used to work really well, but now they need to do y and z better, but their current coaches don't see or teach that well.

 

Sometimes you just need a change to get a new perspective.

 

I think that, more than anything, is a compelling reason enough to make a change after four 90+ loss seasons.

 

But that doesn't help me answer the question either, how do we evaluate pitchign coaches?

[TheLeviathan]

Judging a coach by their player's success may not be fair, but the alternative is that there is nothing to judge them by.  In that scenario you've essentially rendered the position meaningless.  I tend to think the coach's role is overstated, but it's not meaningless.

[The Wise One]

There are improvements a pitcher can make through the year. It may not make them a successful pitcher, but still a better one. 

Are the clunker years because even with coaching the pitcher did not improve because they had already reached their ceiling? Clunker year would be a kind description of 2012. Anybody with a D to start their last name had a pretty good year for them. PJ Walters had a career year. Yet you could not call it a successful season. In some respects you judge the pitching coach by if the pitchers exceeded expectations of what they were capable of. Did they get better than what they were before. It may not show up on a stat sheeet, though it might.

[Thrylos]

My question, more than trying to bash Anderson, is how do you evaluate a coach, and more specifically, a pitching coach

 

Rule of thumb:

 

See who good pitchers credit as a mentor and as a helper. 

 

Or, in other words, if you have the guy who taught Pedro Martinez, Randy Johnson and Johan Santana their out pitches (and they all credit him loudly for it) sitting in the bullpen, you suck.

[The Wise One]

Rule of thumb:

 

See who good pitchers credit as a mentor and as a helper. 

 

Or, in other words, if you have the guy who taught Pedro Martinez, Randy Johnson and Johan Santana their out pitches (and they all credit him loudly for it) sitting in the bullpen, you suck.

Maybe that is why thy let Lucas go, he was not teaching pitchers an out pitch.  Cuellar is at the big league level. If he see things and does not work at changing them h should be aded to the list of dparting coaches

[Thrylos]

Maybe that is why thy let Lucas go, he was not teaching pitchers an out pitch.  Cuellar is at the big league level. If he see things and does not work at changing them h should be aded to the list of dparting coaches

 

if he actually has the potential to offer a voice over the GardyNAndy regime....

 

Had an amazing experience with Cuellar about 3 Spring Trainings ago.  Lester Oliveros was pitching for AA in one of the side fields. As usually, there were pitchers manning the radar gun there.  Cuellar came and stood on the side and was throwing numbers after every pitch without looking.  92, 93, 83, 90.  Spot on every time.  Surreal.   Hope he has a chance after Andy is gone next season.