It is time to end the insanity

[Shane Wahl]

The total mismanagement of this team actually caused me to stop my addiction to Twins Daily. Well, that and the support of this mismanagement for years now by the Twins-organization-can-never-do-wrong crowd on TD. There was real hope after the solid trades made at the first trade deadline this year. Then, somehow, the Twins couldn't get rid of Kurt Suzuki, Trevor Plouffe, and Brandon Kintzler. I would hope that the problem wasn't with buying out the salaries of these three players for the rest of the year  . . . because one would think that playoff teams could use all of them right now, and offering them for free would be quite enticing. Enticing enough to warrant some team org 20ish prospect for each of them. Somehow this did not happen.

 

There are remaining problems here, though. Mitch Garver needs to play in September for the Minnesota Twins. I am not capable of comprehending any scenario where this does not happen. Hell, I would probably actually moved to trade Suzuki and release Centeno . . . to call up Garver, Turner, and Murphy. Let those three rotate for the remainder of the season.

 

Not finding someway, STILL, to trade Trevor Plouffe, is insane. Same thing about buying salary. Miguel Sano, Jorge Polanco, Eduardo Esocbar, Brian Dozier, Joe Mauer, and Kennys Vargas should make up the Twins four infield spots, plus backup, plus DH. For September, James Beresford would serve as a nice guy to backup the entire infield. That guy deserves a September cup of coffee.

 

Not finding someway to trade Robbie Grossman is silly. I don't care if it is for someone outside of the top 30 organizational prospects for some team.

 

Rosario-Buxon-Kepler, with Palka and Walker as back up guys in September. Anything short of this is absurd.

 

I trust Ervin Santana. After that, and this is sick, actually, the guy I trust the most to be a solid and good starter for the Twins is TREVOR MAY. How, on earth, can this team be in this position . . . where a guy relegated to MR and some SU roles is actually the second best internal option in the rotation going forward? I would go with Santana-May-Berrios-Gibson-Santiago next year.

 

After getting rid of total nonsense in the bullpen, I would put Duffey there, keep Rogers and Pressly, and then hope that something out of Wimmers, Burdi, Perkins, Baxendale,and Reed can constitute four real relievers.

 

Hope, otherwise, is totall futile.

 

[Rosterman]

At least not proposing trades that will never happen.

 

Thank goodness. Because we are slowly seeing that not everyone eyes the Twins as being a topflight organization for trading their prospects to for a vet. Sad, but true.

 

When you do start throwing out organizational names and scenarios, the Twins do have players. We just need to see what they can do, which should be the highlight of this December and a cause for the faithful to come to Target Field and cheer rather than just drink and party.

 

The new front office powers will have to figure out the direction the team should go...even get the players that they want (case in point, is Buxton the top of the order ball-in-play, bunt and run guy, or will they let him swing away and become the home run hitter he might want to be...or you talk and say you can do both and your body and mind will change in the coming five years).

 

A field staff and a system staff have to come together towards realistic common goals.

 

Upper manageent ahs to be trusting and know that any money thrown out to players may not give you the return you expect. That is the way professional sports work. 

[The Wise One]

If people like the OP continually post things that are implausible there will be plenty of material for people to comment on said implausibility  and thus be called front office bobos.    The continued use of cherry picked stats while ignoring all of the rest of the numbers available about a player is an insanity that should be stopped.  One can only state there was no market for a player and why so many times. One can only say so many times a player that has spent part of the year injured and is having a poor statistical season  when reading a player should have been traded by the deadline. That number of times is fast approaching the number of hair follicles on Dozier's head, who will be next year's should have been traded for anything player.

 

Trevor May. LOB % 65.  WHIP 1,5   Yes he has a wonderful FIP as a starter. Great K%. Good K-BB%. The ERA is horse poo because the lob% is low. The number of players who get on base is higher than average. Do you think maybe May  Must not be able to pitch with players on base?   Nolasco disease.  Great peripheral number,s  lousy results   3 numbers are why May was sent to the pen. They are the wrong three numbers to be on the wrong side of league average on in aggregate. So please, stop the insanity of one number or two as an indication that a pitcher is good while ignoring every other one.

[DocBauer]

Agree almost 100% with you Shane. (I'm still addicted to TD because I'm addicted to the Twins for 45 years).

 

Unless I'm missing something, why on earth can't Garver come up for September and play in the AFL? I disagree, however, with any idea of releasing Centeno. This team desperately needs help at catcher. Centeno needs help with balls in the dirt, but otherwise seems adequate calling a game and has a decent arm. He's also a LH bat and competent hitter. (I've never subscribed to the theory that your backup catcher has to be great defensively but not hit). Dump or sit Suzuki who is a pending FA anyway. What's he going to do playing? Help you win 1 or 2 more games this season? That accomplishes what?

 

Agree 100% on your infield and DH thoughts. And it could and maybe should be the infield for 2017 as well. I'm not as sold on Palka and Walker coming up, unless it's just for the experience. Rosario, Buxton and Kepler need to play daily. I like Palka a lot, and still find Walker very intriguing. (If he could be the same player at the ML level he is in the minors, he's valuable). But not only do we have to play the young starting OF, but Palka has less than a season of AAA and Walker is improved but questionable ready for a look-see, and it may be better for both to just end the season strong and concentrate on 2017.

 

I also believe in Santana, Gibson, Berrios and May in the rotation. I'm less convinced on Santiago, but to be fair, how happy would we have been to have him in past years? I'd rather see the younger, higher upside Mejia.

 

Duffey could still be a quality SP, we've seen what he is capable of, is still young, and just barely has 1 full season worth of ML starting experience at this point. But he could also be your long man and 6th SP option. There are a few nice bullpen candidates that deserve being looked at. So look at them!

 

IMO, to not do these things for September is borderline incompetent! Play the kids, tell them to cut loose and have fun! So what if you lose? You're already doing that. Experience and auditions for the future is what's important at this point, not a couple more wins!

[adorduan]

 

The total mismanagement of this team actually caused me to stop my addiction to Twins Daily. Well, that and the support of this mismanagement for years now by the Twins-organization-can-never-do-wrong crowd on TD. There was real hope after the solid trades made at the first trade deadline this year. Then, somehow, the Twins couldn't get rid of Kurt Suzuki, Trevor Plouffe, and Brandon Kintzler. I would hope that the problem wasn't with buying out the salaries of these three players for the rest of the year  . . . because one would think that playoff teams could use all of them right now, and offering them for free would be quite enticing. Enticing enough to warrant some team org 20ish prospect for each of them. Somehow this did not happen.

 

There are remaining problems here, though. Mitch Garver needs to play in September for the Minnesota Twins. I am not capable of comprehending any scenario where this does not happen. Hell, I would probably actually moved to trade Suzuki and release Centeno . . . to call up Garver, Turner, and Murphy. Let those three rotate for the remainder of the season.

 

Not finding someway, STILL, to trade Trevor Plouffe, is insane. Same thing about buying salary. Miguel Sano, Jorge Polanco, Eduardo Esocbar, Brian Dozier, Joe Mauer, and Kennys Vargas should make up the Twins four infield spots, plus backup, plus DH. For September, James Beresford would serve as a nice guy to backup the entire infield. That guy deserves a September cup of coffee.

 

Not finding someway to trade Robbie Grossman is silly. I don't care if it is for someone outside of the top 30 organizational prospects for some team.

 

Rosario-Buxon-Kepler, with Palka and Walker as back up guys in September. Anything short of this is absurd.

 

I trust Ervin Santana. After that, and this is sick, actually, the guy I trust the most to be a solid and good starter for the Twins is TREVOR MAY. How, on earth, can this team be in this position . . . where a guy relegated to MR and some SU roles is actually the second best internal option in the rotation going forward? I would go with Santana-May-Berrios-Gibson-Santiago next year.

 

After getting rid of total nonsense in the bullpen, I would put Duffey there, keep Rogers and Pressly, and then hope that something out of Wimmers, Burdi, Perkins, Baxendale,and Reed can constitute four real relievers.

 

Hope, otherwise, is totall futile.

Tell me exactly why any of the current playoff teams would have had enough interest to trade for SuzukI, Plouffe of Kintzler.

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

Tell me exactly why any of the current playoff teams would have had enough interest to trade for SuzukI, Plouffe of Kintzler.

Yeah, Suzuki cleared waivers. That is a strong indication of the value placed on him by other teams.

 

Suzuki isn't Mauer or another player paid way more than his on-field value. He's a vet owed about $2m on an expiring contract. If a team wanted him, they would have claimed him and offered something roughly equivalent to a player to be named later. That's Kurt's value. If a team wanted him, they're not going to quibble over the price. They offer marginal value, the Twins accept, and everyone gets on with their day.

 

Plouffe was returning from injury in a season where his numbers were down across the board.

 

Kintzler is meh.

 

Unlike many others, I felt Antony merely "did his job" at the deadline. He didn't overshoot the mark, he didn't fail.

 

But I'm not going to get riled up that the Twins didn't trade a slew of players who may not even return a C level prospect. Who bloody cares?

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

Agree with OP though I think TD is pretty mild. I think the problem is something deeper in the culture of the organization.

[Shane Wahl]

Getting returns for these players is not nearly as important as being able to unclog the roster. Suzuki's existence on the team prevents Mitch Garver from getting some big league time this year, apparently. Plouffe is nothing but a roster clogger, and has been that for two years. Kintzler is not someone I would trust to perform like this again next year, so he seems to be clogger too.

[wsnydes]

 

Getting returns for these players is not nearly as important as being able to unclog the roster. Suzuki's existence on the team prevents Mitch Garver from getting some big league time this year, apparently. Plouffe is nothing but a roster clogger, and has been that for two years. Kintzler is not someone I would trust to perform like this again next year, so he seems to be clogger too.

Who is Kintzler blocking?  He's been one of the more effective relievers this season, which isn't a long list by any means.  Surely the guys that have been outrighted and brought back up would be higher on the "clogger" list than someone who has actually been effective.

 

We don't know if Garver will be brought up after the AAA season is over, so Suzuki isn't really blocking anyone until that point.  I do agree though, I'd like to see this team figure out their catching position going into next season rather than watch Suzuki.  

[Thrylos]

 

Who is Kintzler blocking? 

 

Baxendale

[wsnydes]

 

Baxendale

Ok, how are the likes of Albers, Dean, O'Rourke, and even Wimmers or Tonkin not blocking him?  

 

That's not even considering Milone, who will come off the DL at some point.

 

I'm confused why an effective guy is blocking somebody when far less effective guys are not.  That doesn't make sense.

[Rosterman]

 

Getting returns for these players is not nearly as important as being able to unclog the roster. Suzuki's existence on the team prevents Mitch Garver from getting some big league time this year, apparently. Plouffe is nothing but a roster clogger, and has been that for two years. Kintzler is not someone I would trust to perform like this again next year, so he seems to be clogger too.

I like it - "roster clogger."

 

Yes, Suzuki is gone, pfuttttt! We need to see more of Murphy and give Garver reps, although he is long for the Fall League now. Regarding Centeno, chances are you can resign him as a minor league free agent. There is the slim possibility someone else will give him a 40-man roster spot, but doubtful. 

 

You can have a roster clogger on your team. The Twins have a few, sadly. Plouffe is the man without a position. Again, if he is of importance to your team, you sign him longterm. He is GUARANTEED to get paid more as a Twin next season no matter what you do. If you had cut him loose, you could resign him, possibly for less, if another team picking him up also cut him loose. Add in other roster cloggers like Joe Mauer, Byung-Ho Park, who both demand a playing space, and you see the mess the Twins have become (not to mention ALL those fringe bodies that we added this year that can be added ANY year).

 

Kintzler is an interesting case. What kind of closer do you need on a team that has only 60 wins. That's a guy who is lucky to pitch every third day. Except we really don't have someone else right now. Tonkin is overworked and needs to shut down. Pressly should've been given the opportunity of Kintzler. I guess we could try Wimmers, bring in Boshers. Is Chargolis closer material? In any case, with an addition or three, situations should be carefully chosen for all relief pitchers based on conversation with them, the needs of the team in the future, and putting them into situations to see how they do. 

 

"Roster Cloggers." Like that! Means you have too much of the same!

[bird]

I understand the sentiment, but have to say the Twins-organization-can't do-anything-wrong crowd is for all purposes non-existent, just like the everything-they-do-is-wrong herd has been culled to being practically non-existent. One of the things I most appreciate about my fellow contributors here on TD is that we tend to understand and accept that some of us are, in our minds, tolerant and forgiving, while others, in their mind, are discerning. As one of the former, I'm perfectly good when my pals encourage me to be more "discerning", and I don't think they object too much if I suggest they're being a bit harsh or to consider both good and bad. The nice thing is we don't accuse one another of being in one of those non-existent crowds. Welcome back, Shawn. 

[Thrylos]

I cannot disagree with much, other that the love for Dozier and Santana after 2 career seasons.

 

The Twins are not one or three or four players away from competing.  The Twins' future core is at 22-25 years old.  Having 30 year olds around makes zero sense.  That's why you may want to keep some of the 26 year olds (May) but need to start selling high on players outside that age group, who are currently at their prime (Dozier, Gibson) or beyond (Santana) to get MLB-ready or close to, 22-24 year olds, so the team will reach its prime together.  And the target there should be at least 2 top of the rotation arms and a catcher with demonstrable ability.

 

Couple more problems:  Hughes and Perkins or actually counting on them to (actually hoping that they will) perform.  Stick the fork on Perkins, hope Hughes returns and does ok enough to be traded.

 

 

[Thrylos]

 

 

Ok, how are the likes of Albers, Dean, O'Rourke, and even Wimmers or Tonkin not blocking him?  

 

That's not even considering Milone, who will come off the DL at some point.

 

I'm confused why an effective guy is blocking somebody when far less effective guys are not.  That doesn't make sense.

 

Here is the thing:

 

In an 100+ loss team, like this mess of a team, people who are not part of your future when you are going to be competitive, like past his prime Kintzler, have no business taking time from players who may or may not be part of your future and you need to give them reps to find out.

 

"Effectiveness" in a 100+ Loss team is worse than lipstick on a pig. 

 

Agree about all the names up there.  Tonkin is 26, but he is mediocre, and we have seen enough.  Maybe a new pitching coach can help him get some movement in his FB, that's about it.

 

O'Rourke is blocking Melotakis, Albers and Dean are blocking Berrios..

 

 

[wsnydes]

 

Here is the thing:

 

In an 100+ loss team, like this mess of a team, people who are not part of your future when you are going to be competitive, like past his prime Kintzler, have no business taking time from players who may or may not be part of your future and you need to give them reps to find out.

 

"Effectiveness" in a 100+ Loss team is worse than lipstick on a pig. 

 

Agree about all the names up there.  Tonkin is 26, but he is mediocre, and we have seen enough.  Maybe a new pitching coach can help him get some movement in his FB, that's about it.

 

O'Rourke is blocking Melotakis, Albers and Dean are blocking Berrios..

I agree completely with all of that, including the bit on Kintzler.  But in the context in which this argument was framed, Kintzler blocking anyone is odd considering the other names that would be higher on the list of guys blocking prospects.  Get through those names first and if there are still prospects left deserving to be up with the big club, I'd be right there too.  But that wasn't how the context was framed.  Obvious DFA candidates were bypassed for a guy that's actually earning his spot.

[stringer bell]

Thoughts on a few potential call ups: Beresford is a nice AAA player, but all he is is a younger version of Doug Bernier. John Ryan Murphy is younger than Mitch Garver and Garver has just reached AAA. Berrios is blocking Berrios.

[wsnydes]

 

Thoughts on a few potential call ups: Beresford is a nice AAA player, but all he is is a younger version of Doug Bernier. John Ryan Murphy is younger than Mitch Garver and Garver has just reached AAA. Berries is blocking Berrios.

What sort of berries?  Could we just make smoothies for everyone so that Berrios would no longer be blocked?  

[bird]

 

Yeah, Suzuki cleared waivers. That is a strong indication of the value placed on him by other teams.

 

Suzuki isn't Mauer or another player paid way more than his on-field value. He's a vet owed about $2m on an expiring contract. If a team wanted him, they would have claimed him and offered something roughly equivalent to a player to be named later. That's Kurt's value. If a team wanted him, they're not going to quibble over the price. They offer marginal value, the Twins accept, and everyone gets on with their day.

 

Plouffe was returning from injury in a season where his numbers were down across the board.

 

Kintzler is meh.

 

Unlike many others, I felt Antony merely "did his job" at the deadline. He didn't overshoot the mark, he didn't fail.

 

But I'm not going to get riled up that the Twins didn't trade a slew of players who may not even return a C level prospect. Who bloody cares?

 

 

Exactly this. The Twin's farm system is chock full of C prospects. All they'd be doing is cutting Onas Farfan to make room for someone else's Max Cordy, or whatever. All guys with a snowball's chance at ever seeing AAA let alone contributing anything during their entire careers that remotely resembles what Plouffe will do next week. 

 

I want to see Garver, Turner, and Murphy too. But I'm not going to confuse this with a belief that the only way the organization can "know" enough about the stage of development of prospects is to let me see them play baseball. I just don't see a lot of clogging going on, frankly. Garver gets the AFL call, which is probably vastly more helpful to his development than a short stint of MLB where he's very likely to be overwhelmed. Maybe this enters into the organization's thinking. Doesn't sound insane to me.

[Otto von Ballpark]

 

Garver gets the AFL call, which is probably vastly more helpful to his development than a short stint of MLB where he's very likely to be overwhelmed. Maybe this enters into the organization's thinking. Doesn't sound insane to me.

They're not mutually exclusive -- the AFL doesn't begin until October. Kubel played in September 2004 for the Twins, and even made the postseason roster, then played in the AFL that same year (and tore up his knee...).

[Otto von Ballpark]

 

I want to see Garver, Turner, and Murphy too. But I'm not going to confuse this with a belief that the only way the organization can "know" enough about the stage of development of prospects is to let me see them play baseball.

This organization hasn't made a lot of great MLB calls in terms of development lately -- they could perhaps use all the help they can get!

 

And in the case of catcher, there is a trickle-down effect -- it's not just the catchers themselves, but also the pitchers.  We could/should be looking at a post-Suzuki future in 2017, it would be nice to prepare for that a bit in 2016.

[DaveW]

The most insane part of this entire stupid team is the fact that freaking Andrew Albers is making starts for them. Andrew Albers, a guy that literally has no real future in this league, and certainly no future on a Twins team that by some miracle wishes to contend again sometime this decade.

The minute they knew the season was going pear shaped they should have stretched May back out and given him a legitimate shot at the rotation, of course that didn't happen and likely will never happen, this team likely just ruined another legitimate arm.

 

I can't wait for a new GM or president of operations to come in and completely clean house: Molly, Allen, Bruno? Gone.

 

Bruno might be the worst hitting coach in the last 20 years in the entire league, what on earth were they thinking beyond "one of us! one of us!"

 

 

[Twinfan & Dad]

I couldn't agree more. I too have'nt posted anything in over 2 months simply because I'm disgusted with the ineptitude of the organization. Tell me how in the hell is Berrios a stud in AAA and nobody sees a flaw for the entire season and then he is brought up all of the sudden we have issues. Polanco wasted away the first half of the season in AAA when there was plenty of opportunities to bring him up and play instead of brought up to sit. At least we see now he should be in plans going forward. As previously mentioned May WASTING away in MR. Sano in RF to start the season. Doomed to failure from the start. I am hoping for a complete overhaul of the entire organization and starting over. Last and not least please find a solution at C. I don't care what you trade just get us a answer. My vent is done!

 

[DaveW]

 

This organization hasn't made a lot of great MLB calls in terms of development lately -- they could perhaps use all the help they can get!

 

And in the case of catcher, there is a trickle-down effect -- it's not just the catchers themselves, but also the pitchers.  We could/should be looking at a post-Suzuki future in 2017, it would be nice to prepare for that a bit in 2016.

Yup, I truly get a kick out of the "well the org clearly knows what they are doing" defenses I see thrown out here all season.

The Twins are the worst team in baseball, over the last 5 years the Twins have been the worst team in baseball overall. This org does NOT know what they are doing, and they all will be rightly fired the minute a half way competent pres of baseball is brought in.

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

Getting returns for these players is not nearly as important as being able to unclog the roster. Suzuki's existence on the team prevents Mitch Garver from getting some big league time this year, apparently. Plouffe is nothing but a roster clogger, and has been that for two years. Kintzler is not someone I would trust to perform like this again next year, so he seems to be clogger too.

Mitch Garver has 74 PAs in Rochester. It's not fair - not even a little bit - to hammer away at the Twins for their treatment of Buxton or Hicks and then demand they promote a middling catching prospect through three levels in a season.

 

Plouffe was blocking roster movement for all of a hot minute. Then he got hurt. Then Sano got hurt. Now Trevor is just kinda taking up space that no one else is really going to fill anyway. Sano is the DH and has elbow issues. Polanco is playing short. Exactly who is Plouffe blocking right now?

 

The modest upside of Kintzler is higher than the value anyone will give you for him today. You just keep that guy, hoping he turns into a middle relief guy who performs acceptably.

 

Do I really want any of these guys on the roster? No, not really. Do I care if they're on the roster for 30 more days? Not even a little bit.

[bird]

 

This organization hasn't made a lot of great MLB calls in terms of development lately -- they could perhaps use all the help they can get!

 

And in the case of catcher, there is a trickle-down effect -- it's not just the catchers themselves, but also the pitchers.  We could/should be looking at a post-Suzuki future in 2017, it would be nice to prepare for that a bit in 2016.

 

 

Good points. The good calls are outweighed by the bad ones for sure, although part of that falls on the player, good and bad. And I suppose it makes sense to give pitchers like Gibson and Santana and the two others who will be here next year  a chance to throw an inning or three with Garver.

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

The most insane part of this entire stupid team is the fact that freaking Andrew Albers is making starts for them. Andrew Albers, a guy that literally has no real future in this league, and certainly no future on a Twins team that by some miracle wishes to contend again sometime this decade.

See, now this pisses me off to no end.

 

The Twins are a hopeless team in a lost season. 40% of their rotation consists of Pat Dean and Andrew Albers.

[Thrylos]

 

 

 

Exactly who is Plouffe blocking right now?

 

 

 

Plouffe has been playing at 1B for a while now. 

 

Vargas is blocked by him.  Totally inane to sent him down

 

[Thrylos]

 

 

See, now this pisses me off to no end.

 

The Twins are a hopeless team in a lost season. 40% of their rotation consists of Pat Dean and Andrew Albers.

 

Wait for Milone to come back

[bird]

 

They're not mutually exclusive -- the AFL doesn't begin until October. Kubel played in September 2004 for the Twins, and even made the postseason roster, then played in the AFL that same year (and tore up his knee...).

 

 

Rochester gets eliminated as early as tonight, so let's see what happens. But would opting to give Garver a break before starting the AFL be insanity? Maybe, in the org's view, that would make more sense than plugging him in up here, who knows.