On-field brawling, awesomeness, and Mientkiewicz

[Boom Boom]

I got into this a bit in Nick Nelson's thread about Mientkiewicz as a potential new Twins manager, mostly in response to his statement about how "Eye Chart"'s on-field brawl last year was kind of awesome.

 

Rather than hijack that thread, I thought I'd make my own and open up the question here.  To be sure, fighting and immaturity go back forever with professional sports, and I don't deny that.  What I have a problem with is a culture of acceptance that I feel enables further knuckleheaded (or worse) behavior.  Sometimes that acceptance wanders dangerously into the territory of approval or even celebration.  The sport has changed a lot since the days of Ty Cobb deliberately spiking fielders.  Umpires give warnings for throwing too close to a hitter.  Most recently a rule was put in place to deter collisions, incidental or deliberate, with the catcher (see Hunter, Torii). 

We've often been told about professional sports that the culture is different, which is true to a degree, but also true about every other individual walk of life.  The culture of my job is different than the culture of someone else's.  For how many occupations is fighting considered acceptable?  Are there any fields for which it should be?

[gunnarthor]

I do believe Dougie was punished for that, IIRC.  From your posts in that thread, you seem to be advocating that he be fired.  I wouldn't go that far.

I think this brings up two issues.  First, is this kind of conduct good in a general, human sense?  Second, is it good for the sport?  

 

On the first issue, I think you have some ground.  Adults probably shouldn't get in fights in general.  In sports I think there's a bit more acceptance of physical contact that's probably always going to be there.  Issues of respect/disrespect, supporting teammates, etc come into play here.

 

On the second issue, I think this stuff is great for the game.  I think one of the worse things baseball did for its popularity was trying to clean up the game.  Torii Hunter's take out was great - it was a legal play but sorta dirty.  It hyped the Twins/White Sox rivalry.  Fans became more invested in the game (IIRC, the Twins/White Sox had three straight series where benches emptied after that). Rivalries are born from things like this.  Rivalries are great for any sport.  A's fans hate Manny Machado now and they had some of their best home attendance games of the year when Baltimore came to town.

 

Lastly, I think this problem in baseball is incredibly over stated.  Even in the grand old days of brawls and pitchers hitting batters deliberately, no one actually got hurt.  Compared with the late hits in football and brawls in hockey, baseball is far and away a cleaner, safer game.

[TheLeviathan]

The culture of my job is different than the culture of someone else's.  For how many occupations is fighting considered acceptable?  Are there any fields for which it should be?

 

You're absolutely, 100% correct.  Players acting like spoiled buffoons does nothing for baseball.  Rivalries are built by the stakes that are being played for, not the childish nonsense people try to disguise as being "tough" or "great".

[Mike Sixel]

Fighting is immature at best. It has no place in sports, imo.

[Boom Boom]

I do believe Dougie was punished for that, IIRC.  From your posts in that thread, you seem to be advocating that he be fired.  I wouldn't go that far.

 

This is correct, even at the time of the incident I am on record saying he should have been fired. 

 

Reasons to fire an employee are always subjective, but IMO, getting into an on-field fistfight should be grounds for a manager's dismissal.

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

I disagree with Nick and jokin's idea that the brawl somehow shakes out in Mientkiewicz's favor. If not fired, then probably assigned a one-way ticket to managing permanently in Fort Myers.

 

I do agree with you gunnarthor that it is good for the game though. Sports is controlled aggression anyway and forms the basis for great stories. I just think it's better when it's other people doing the crazy  ugly stuff and not our guys (this opinion brought to you from a lifelong Minnesotan).

[bird]

While I don't get worked up over baseball brawls, I'm of the general opinion that we all could do a lot more to promote a world of greater respect, greater tolerance, greater empathy, greater love. One of the ways to do this is to take on personal risk. Stand up to hateful acts of disrespect and intolerance and call out against personal injustice.

 

These social issues are playing out more prolifically outside of sports and with a much more devastating effect.  Acts of hate, violence and abuse are being tolerated or minimized, especially terribly harmful acts against women. I'm aware that the cowardly Ray Rice is in the news, yes. Trouble is, there are even worse sickos going unpunished.

 

Society glamorizes the bad actor stuff and idolizes men as aggressors. Sports are a great venue for feeding this nonsense. I know it might seem like a tenuous connection, but calling Mientkiewicz a desirable candidate because he did the whole tough guy thing is just plain stupid in my opinion. It just plays into the problem we need to fix in our culture. He's a worse choice because of his childish bravado, not a better one. Give me the manager that stepped in to break it up, because that's the real man for you.

[twinsnorth49]

How many great books on leadership advocate fighting somebody as an example?..........None that I've read.  It's amazing how sports are so often allowed to fall outside of what is socially acceptable everywhere else while hiding under the cliches of machismo and bravado.

[Boom Boom]

birdwatcher's post hits at the heart of the matter for me - that violence is brushed aside, or even glamorized, when it involves men in the professional sports industry.

 

I'm not saying Doug can't learn from his mistake, or that he should be banned for life.  But "having been involved in an on-field fistfight" shouldn't be a positive mark on his resumé; it should be quite the opposite.

[DJSim22]

I think Dougie Baseball's (said only to annoy a few on here ) punishment for the brawl is it will be the strike that keeps him from taking Gardy's job.  The fight could case him to wait several years to be an MLB manager.  That's punishment enough to me. 

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

Just a quick point: I don't think gunnarthor or I or anyone is saying situations like Ray Rice is good for sports, or bad brawls like Gophers-Ohio St., or bad fans who bait bad characters guys like Ron Artest into jumping into the stands, and so on. 

[TheLeviathan]

birdwatcher's post hits at the heart of the matter for me - that violence is brushed aside, or even glamorized, when it involves men in the professional sports industry.

 

I'm not saying Doug can't learn from his mistake, or that he should be banned for life.  But "having been involved in an on-field fistfight" shouldn't be a positive mark on his resumé; it should be quite the opposite.

On field buffoonery of that sort should never be celebrated. The earlier post does nothing but list a bunch of tired old cliches to justify someone acting like a clown.

 

The great rivalries I know have been built on a tradition of fierce play with high stakes, not back and forth dirty play. I'm with bird watcher in being done with that thoroughly preposterous notion.

[Thrylos]

Brawls are silly.  But they are staged.  And I suspect that more players and coaches got seriously hurt in home plate celebrations (including a former Twin), dirty slides and honest collisions (including several former Twins in friendly fire) than brawls.

 

I'd rather have a manager who seems to care about winning and is fighting to win and even use a fistfight as an allegorical didactic tool ( ) instead of one who does not care.  Minnesota Nice can take you so far; if your opponents are breaking your starting second basement's leg, you do not have to give them parting gifts during their exuberant retirement ceremonies.

 

It is a matter of caring about winning.   These days baseball is more of an "experience" (See: 3D movies etc) than a competitive sport for most of the fans.  Sorry.  I don't like that.  I want my team to win.  And I want the umpires and the other team to play a fair and not dirty ball.  And kudos to people who are still like that and fighting for that (like Dougie.  They care too, or at least show their players that they care and teach them by example to care. Instead of the others who care about post-game meals and paychecks.)

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

Unfortunately it does get celebrated, especially when no one gets hurt. In reality I think buffoonish incidents are always going to happen but are not always black and white. Which of these on field "assaults" were bad for the game, and which made the game richer?

 

- Mientkiewicz charging opposing manager

- Hrbek pulling Gant off the bag

- Pine Tar incident-Brett charging out at umpire

- Pedro Martinez striking Don Zimmer

- Robin Ventura charging Nolan Ryan - I can't deny it, in hindsight I am glad this one happened

[Thrylos]

 Which of these on field "assaults" were bad for the game, and which made the game richer?

 

- Mientkiewicz charging opposing manager

- Hrbek pulling Gant off the bag

- Pine Tar incident-Brett charging out at umpire

- Pedro Martinez striking Don Zimmer

- Robin Ventura charging Nolan Ryan - I can't deny it, in hindsight I am glad this one happened

 

One of those does not belong in the list.  Because it happened when the ball was in play and was really not an assault by any means.

[Mike Sixel]

I agree 10000000000% with birdwatcher.

[Craig Arko]

You folks must have hated Billy Martin.

[gunnarthor]

The great rivalries I know have been built on a tradition of fierce play with high stakes, not back and forth dirty play. I'm with bird watcher in being done with that thoroughly preposterous notion.

You have selective memory.  Bulls/Knicks, Bulls/Pistons, Raiders/Steelers, Vikings/Packers, Yankees/Red Sox, Yankees/Orioles, Twins/White Sox, Giants/Dodgers, Giants/Braves, Cowboys/Eagles, Pistons/Celtics, Celtics/Lakers, Bruins/Every NHL team, Cowboys/49ers, Cardinals/Reds, Royals/Yankees.  All of those rivalries had important parts added to it by "dirty play."  

 

And, as I pointed out many times, football season has started so why haven't you been advocating for Captain Munnerlyn to be fired or charged with assault for his personal foul on the Rams receiver?  The guy was out of bounds in a defenseless position with Munnerlyn whipped him to the ground.  That's certainly an "assault", as you called it, and much more dangerous than any baseball fiasco.  Or is illegal contact in football "just part of the game" and something you can accept?

[Boom Boom]

You have selective memory.  Bulls/Knicks, Bulls/Pistons, Raiders/Steelers, Vikings/Packers, Yankees/Red Sox, Yankees/Orioles, Twins/White Sox, Giants/Dodgers, Giants/Braves, Cowboys/Eagles, Pistons/Celtics, Celtics/Lakers, Bruins/Every NHL team, Cowboys/49ers, Cardinals/Reds, Royals/Yankees.  All of those rivalries had important parts added to it by "dirty play."  

 

And, as I pointed out many times, football season has started so why haven't you been advocating for Captain Munnerlyn to be fired or charged with assault for his personal foul on the Rams receiver?  The guy was out of bounds in a defenseless position with Munnerlyn whipped him to the ground.  That's certainly an "assault", as you called it, and much more dangerous than any baseball fiasco.  Or is illegal contact in football "just part of the game" and something you can accept?

 

I guess I see a difference between "dirty play" and fighting - fighting isn't dirty play, it's not play at all.  The line between "illegal contact" and "assault" in an NFL play is blurry until the whistle blows.

 

Regardless, your analogy is missing the point, because what Doug did would be more like an NFL coach getting into an altercation on the field. 

[gunnarthor]

I guess I see a difference between "dirty play" and fighting - fighting isn't dirty play, it's not play at all.  The line between "illegal contact" and "assault" in an NFL play is blurry until the whistle blows.

 

Regardless, your analogy is missing the point, because what Doug did would be more like an NFL coach getting into an altercation on the field. 

Well, Woody Hayes, Billy Martin, La Russa, Lasorda, Don Zimmer, Buck Showalter, Jeff Van Gundy .... 

 

Again, Doug got punished.  But apparently you think the only punishment should be losing his job.  That's a far leap.  I think most of us who think on field brawling etc adds something to the game still believe there should be penalties.  We just aren't as extreme as you. 

[Boom Boom]

Well, Woody Hayes, Billy Martin, La Russa, Lasorda, Don Zimmer, Buck Showalter, Jeff Van Gundy .... 

 

Again, Doug got punished.  But apparently you think the only punishment should be losing his job.  That's a far leap.  I think most of us who think on field brawling etc adds something to the game still believe there should be penalties.  We just aren't as extreme as you. 

 

I thought he should have been fired, as a relatively new minor-league coach without a great track record at the time, and I stand by that. His punishment was his punishment, and that's not exactly what I'm taking issue with here.

 

What bothers me now is the sentiment that the fight somehow makes him a better candidate than others for the Twins job.

 

"That's the way it's always been" and "it adds something to the game" is the same reason that the NHL hasn't banned fighting, which for the record, I also think is ridiculous.

[Boom Boom]

You folks must have hated Billy Martin.

 

I'm too young to have followed Martin's career, but from what I understand, a lot of people hated Billy Martin.

[gunnarthor]

 

 

What bothers me now is the sentiment that the fight somehow makes him a better candidate than others for the Twins job.

 

I agree that the fight is a bad reason to think he'd be a good manager.  I think he'll be the next Twins manager but it has nothing to do with the fight.  I think the FO likes his ability to win while developing young players and, like Gardy, he came up with a lot of the young guys.  

[TheLeviathan]

You have selective memory.  Bulls/Knicks, Bulls/Pistons, Raiders/Steelers, Vikings/Packers, Yankees/Red Sox, Yankees/Orioles, Twins/White Sox, Giants/Dodgers, Giants/Braves, Cowboys/Eagles, Pistons/Celtics, Celtics/Lakers, Bruins/Every NHL team, Cowboys/49ers, Cardinals/Reds, Royals/Yankees.  All of those rivalries had important parts added to it by "dirty play."  

 

And, as I pointed out many times, football season has started so why haven't you been advocating for Captain Munnerlyn to be fired or charged with assault for his personal foul on the Rams receiver?  The guy was out of bounds in a defenseless position with Munnerlyn whipped him to the ground.  That's certainly an "assault", as you called it, and much more dangerous than any baseball fiasco.  Or is illegal contact in football "just part of the game" and something you can accept?

 

Your refusal to separate the aspect of physical play in football and hockey from baseball is just ridiculous.  It really is, I don't know how to phrase that any more kindly than that.  It's a fundamental misunderstanding how of the games are played and a completely inept analogy.  It makes a rational conversation on the matter intractable.  Physical violence towards other people is an accepted aspect of football and hockey - it's part of the average course of play.  There are times it steps beyond that (largely because of difficulty in awareness/controls of all aspects of extreme physicality) and is punished accordingly as part of the rules of the game.

 

A dude charing the mound is injecting violence into a game that can be played without it existing.  It's apples and oranges.  Can we please be done with this silly analogy?

 

As for all those rivalries - I remember a 3-0 rally by the Red Sox more than anything dirty.  I remember big homeruns, big wins, and tight contests far more than isolated dirty plays.  Why?  Because the dirty players come and go and the rivalries endure.  They wouldn't do that if the dirty plays were the focus.  Do they add a little pepper to a rivalry for a short time?  Sure.  But the stakes are what makes it a rivalry.

[gunnarthor]

Your refusal to separate the aspect of physical play in football and hockey from baseball is just ridiculous.  It really is, I don't know how to phrase that any more kindly than that.  It's a fundamental misunderstanding how of the games are played and a completely inept analogy.  It makes a rational conversation on the matter intractable.  Physical violence towards other people is an accepted aspect of football and hockey - it's part of the average course of play.  There are times it steps beyond that (largely because of difficulty in awareness/controls of all aspects of extreme physicality) and is punished accordingly as part of the rules of the game.

 

A dude charing the mound is injecting violence into a game that can be played without it existing.  It's apples and oranges.  Can we please be done with this silly analogy?

 

As for all those rivalries - I remember a 3-0 rally by the Red Sox more than anything dirty.  I remember big homeruns, big wins, and tight contests far more than isolated dirty plays.  Why?  Because the dirty players come and go and the rivalries endure.  They wouldn't do that if the dirty plays were the focus.  Do they add a little pepper to a rivalry for a short time?  Sure.  But the stakes are what makes it a rivalry.

You are the one that called being hit by a baseball an "assault", not me.  A big guy throws a baseball inches away from a hitter on every play.  The possibility for violence in baseball is a natural part of the game unless you only think of violence as tackling or punching. You somehow think that baseball fights are a violent, end of society, criminal acts while ignoring the more common, more violent and just as illegal violent acts in football.  All sports police those actions in some manner and yet you (and Boom Boom) have called for criminal investigations of baseball players and/or players getting fired for baseball fights and excuse football players for doing what is part of the game.  That's what is silly about these discussions.

 

I pointed out that Captain Munnerlyn threw a defenseless receiver out of bounds last week.  Here's video of him grabbing Percy Harvin's facemask 10 yards out of bounds and twisting and then throwing haymakers.  Clearly, this guy is a dangerous guy but "boys will be boys" in one sport and criminal acts happen in another sport.  Should I bring up some clips of hockey players swinging sticks at each others heads?  But baseball is the problem sport.

 

As to the rivalries, you're still being pretty selective.  The Red Sox/Yankees were already an extremely big rivalry prior to the 3-0 comeback - in large part the rivalry was created by Red Sox pitchers showing they weren't scared of the Yankees by constantly hitting Yankee hitters.  This is true - every series between the teams in 2002, the Red Sox hit at least one Yankee batter - Pedro was the primary combatant.  And they did it again in 2004.  Sure, extra curricular stuff (as the Munnerlyn stuff was described) is rarely the only part of a rivalry but it's always a big part.

[TheLeviathan]

The possibility for violence in baseball is a natural part of the game unless you only think of violence as tackling or punching. Y

 

In football and hockey there is no "possibility" - 22 dudes are physically aggressive with one another every....single....play.  (Or 11 in the case of hockey) The fact that you keep seriously suggesting this analogy is baffling.  I have to believe you understand how deeply flawed it is but keep floating it for some purpose I have not yet gleaned.  

 

There is no "boys will be boys" and no one I read here said any such thing.  Munnerlyn deserved to be penalized and was.  But what he did was be too physical in a physical sport.  Not start a fight in a non-physical sport.  The only analogies in football are things like a guy stomping someone's facemask with his cleat or attacking someone with their helmet off - those are rare instances and I'd be every bit as harsh on them.  I've already said I'd ban fighting in hockey if I had my way and I feel the same about swinging sticks.  There is no hypocrisy.  I realize that's the only way you think you can make your position tenable but, sorry, no hypocrisy here.  

 

Most everyone who has posted in this thread and called out your first post take the same stance in all major sports.  The position here is consistent.  We should be talking more about why you are glorifying the dirty nonsense because no one else is.

 

As for rivalries, I'm not being selective: the two largest factors in every rivalry are very simple - geographic proximity and high stakes play.  Those two factors tend to drive the other things that add spice to it like dirty play and guys switching allegiances and all the other stuff.  You're suggesting dirty play is the cause of rivalries, I'd argue it's the effect of the passion involved in them.  In other words, the rivalry has to already exist to drum up the passion for dirty play.  Rarely is it the reverse.  But by all means, since you have made that claim - let's see a list of specific examples of teams where no rivalry existed but one dirty play cemented a rivalry.

[Boom Boom]

You are the one that called being hit by a baseball an "assault", not me.  A big guy throws a baseball inches away from a hitter on every play.  The possibility for violence in baseball is a natural part of the game unless you only think of violence as tackling or punching. You somehow think that baseball fights are a violent, end of society, criminal acts while ignoring the more common, more violent and just as illegal violent acts in football.  All sports police those actions in some manner and yet you (and Boom Boom) have called for criminal investigations of baseball players and/or players getting fired for baseball fights and excuse football players for doing what is part of the game.  That's what is silly about these discussions.

 

Nowhere did I call for criminal investigations.

 

I think these discussions are nowhere near as silly as a 40-some year old man, who coaches kids who largely aren't old enough to drink, to run out on to a playing field to throw fisticuffs.  To me, that's extremely silly, and what's more silly is the implication that we should have a special set of rules for sports personalities.

 

What's even more ridiculous is that Mientkiewicz isn't even involved in the physical play on the field.  He's supposed to be a person of authority in the organization and he set a very bad example.  Would it bother you if Terry Ryan ran out from his suite to start throwing punches at Billy Beane or Brian Cashman?

 

I understand there's a lot of cases of this happening in the past.  In my opinion, it was always wrong, and fans who hold those kinds of behaviors up as positive or commendable are also wrong.  Just because something has always been wrong doesn't mean we shouldn't fix it when we can.

[gunnarthor]

 

I understand there's a lot of cases of this happening in the past.  In my opinion, it was always wrong, and fans who hold those kinds of behaviors up as positive or commendable are also wrong.  Just because something has always been wrong doesn't mean we shouldn't fix it when we can.

And has been stated previously, Dougie Baseball was punished for his actions. 

[jokin]

I disagree with Nick and jokin's idea that the brawl somehow shakes out in Mientkiewicz's favor. If not fired, then probably assigned a one-way ticket to managing permanently in Fort Myers.

 

I do agree with you gunnarthor that it is good for the game though. Sports is controlled aggression anyway and forms the basis for great stories. I just think it's better when it's other people doing the crazy  ugly stuff and not our guys (this opinion brought to you from a lifelong Minnesotan).

 

I don't know about Nick, but when did I say anything like this about MIentkiewicz?  I did say quite a few things like "sports is controlled aggression", though.

[jokin]

And has been stated previously, Dougie Baseball was punished for his actions. 

 

Exactly.  For some, it's just not easy to accept that a brawl taking place in the real world of an office lounge just isn't remotely the same thing as one at a sports venue, in the second case, the participants- as they enter their workplace, a 40,000 seat stadium- are called "opponents" for good reason.  The physical nature of a sporting event,, the heightened tensions that come with the higher stakes involved, plus the raised testosterone levels inevitably lead to occasional unacceptable behavior.  And that isn't to say that such behavior is excusable, either.  After the incident in question, Mienkiewicz himself expressed surprise that he wasn't let go, and was grateful to TR for getting a second chance to make it right. By all accounts, he's done so thus far.