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  • Building a Pitching Pipeline


    Seth Stohs

    Derek Falvey is often given at least some credit for the pipeline of starting pitchers that Cleveland has had over the past decade. Twins fans are starting to ask, “When will the Twins have that kind of pitching pipeline?” 

    Image courtesy of Seth Stohs, Twins Daily

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    For years Twins fans have watched the Cleveland Baseball Club bring up pitcher after pitcher who finds success. In recent years, they have traded pitchers such as Corey Kluber, Trevor Bauer and Mike Clevinger and still have a top ten pitching staff in 2021. 

    It seems to have started in July of 2010 when Cleveland acquired middling pitching prospect Corey Kluber as part of a three-team deal. At the time, Kluber was a 24-year-old just starting to put things together in Double-A. He was never a Top 30 prospect with the Padres, and he wasn’t a Top 20 prospect for Cleveland either. 

    Kluber debuted in 2011 with three games. He made 12 starts in 2012 and went 2-5 while posting a 5.14 ERA. In 2013, he gained a regular rotation spot, went 11-5 and had a 3.85 ERA. In 2014, he won his first of two Cy Young Awards and finished in the top three in voting four of the next five seasons. 

    Mike Clevinger was Cleveland’s fourth round pick by the Angels out of junior college. Four years later, in August of 2014, he had not reached Double-A and was traded to Cleveland in exchange for reliever Vinny Pestano. Clevinger debuted in 2016 as a 25-year old. He split time between the bullpen and the rotation through the 2017 season before becoming a full-time starter in 2018. 

    Shane Bieber was Cleveland’s fourth round pick in 2016 out of UC-Santa Barbara. His timeline was pretty quick. He pitched at three levels in 2017. In 2018, he started at Double-A and dominated for five starts. He moved up to Triple A for eight starts and was great. He debuted in May 2018 at age 23 and moved up and down for awhile, but he’s been in their rotation ever since. He became an All Star in 2019 and was the unanimous Cy Young winner in 2020 at age 25. Bieber wasn’t a top ten Cleveland prospect until that 2018 season. 

    Aaron Civale was Cleveland’s third round pick in 2016 out of Northeastern. He spent all of 2018 in Double-A. In 2017, he began at Double-A but quickly moved up. The rest of that season, his age-24-season, bouncing back and forth between Triple-A and Cleveland. He posted a 4.74 ERA in 12 starts in 2020, and has started 2021 6-1 with a 3.30 ERA. Civale found himself just outside of Cleveland’s Top 10 prospect rankings. 

    Zach Plesac was Cleveland’s 12th round draft pick in 2016 out of Ball State. Three years later, he made his debut as a 24-year-old in May of 2019. Since then, he has posted season ERAs of 3.81, 2.28 and 3.93.  

    So again, what can we learn?

    1. Don’t write off any pitcher in the minor leaguers, even if they aren’t a top 30 prospect in the organization.
    2. It is normal for pitchers, even good ones, to bounce between Triple-A and the big leagues for a little while.
    3. You don’t have to debut at 23 or younger to become a star. 
    4. You can win Cy Youngs at age 25 like Bieber or 29 like Kluber. 
    5. You don’t have to go to a top college to become a good big-league starter. 
    6. Repeating a level doesn’t disqualify a pitcher from becoming a good starter. 
    7. Maybe the most important thing to remember is that you just never know.   

     

    Where are the Twins now?

    Jose Berrios is homegrown, though he was called up before the current regime took over. The current front office has signed Michael Pineda as a free agent (twice), J.A. Happ, Matt Shoemaker and others. They also traded for Kenta Maeda a year ago. In other words, they are still piecing things together as they wait for the pipeline to produce. 

    While Lewis Thorpe was signed and developed early under a past regime, he has also developed the past four or five years under the current regime. 

    Randy Dobnak is absolutely a success story, even if he never makes another start in the big leagues (which, by the way, after six shutout innings on Friday night, it won’t be). You know the story. Undrafted free agent from a Division II school. Signed from an independent league. Spent all of 2018 in Cedar Rapids. Pitched at four levels in 2019, including in the big leagues. Signed a long-term extension. 

    But, now we want (and really, really need) to start seeing the pipeline. Remember, the first year with Derek Falvey at the helm, there weren’t a lot of changes. There was a lot of evaluation. So in 2017, they started adding some additional technology (Rapsodo, high-speed cameras, added Trackman capabilities). They have also now been adding coaches and coordinators. Each affiliate has two pitching coaches. Each affiliate has at least one Spanish-speaking coach. They have had a minor league pitching coordinator with a couple of assistants. Each pitcher has an individual improvement plan that they get to be part of making. 


    So who are some of the pitching prospects that potentially could keep developing?

    Jhoan Duran (23) made his first appearance on Saturday night for the Saints. He was hitting 97-99 (the radar gun kept showing 102), though it was also clear he was shaking off some rust. The Twins acquired him in a trade from the Diamondbacks and have helped him develop as a starting pitcher. 

    The Twins current front office has traded for some other pitching prospects early in their development. Luis Rijo (22) came to the Twins from the Yankees in the Lance Lynn deal. He was a pitcher with good command of his pitches. By 2019, he was hitting 95 with his fastball. When the Twins traded Lewin Diaz to the Marlins in 2019, they received Sergio Romo and Chris Vallimont (24).  The hard-throwing right-hander made his Wichita debut on Saturday night and struck out eight batters in 4 2/3 innings. 

    Jordan Balazovic (22) should be returning to action soon. He has been working back from an oblique injury in Ft. Myers, but he is obviously very talented. He was the Twins fifth round pick in 2016 out of high school in Canada. A year later, the Twins were able to sign Blayne Enlow (22) after drafting him in the third round of the 2017 draft and keeping him from LSU. Enlow is now throwing 95-96 mph with a four-pitch mix that has come a long way.  

    Two other pitchers to watch are in St. Paul. Griffin Jax (26) was the team’s third round pick in 2016 from the Air Force. He was only able to participate part-time early in his career due to obligations, but he’s been a very consistent performer all the way up. Charlie Barnes (25) was the Twins’ fourth round pick in 2018 out of Clemson. Known for his changeup, he also has been quite good as he’s moved up the ladder. Both have been invited to big-league spring training the last two years. 

    Bailey Ober (25) made his MLB debut this week, a spot start in place of Michael Pineda. He has put up just silly numbers in his minor league career, though he has missed time with arm issues. When healthy, he’s really good despite not throwing real hard. 

    The 2018 draft brought the Twins a couple of very intriguing prospects. In the fourth round, they selected Cole Sands (23) out of Florida State. In 2019, he pitched at three levels and is starting well in Wichita this year. Wichita’s Opening Day starter was 2018 seventh-round pick Josh Winder (24). No one has increased their prospect value in the past year than Winder. After sitting 91-92 mph in 2019, he now is hitting 97 mph with a fastball and has a very sharp slider and a good change. 

    Also from that 2018 draft, lefty Kody Funderburk (24, 15th round, Dallas Baptist) and Andrew Cabezas (24, 18th round, U of Miami) have started out well with Cedar Rapids. 19th round pick, Austin Schulfer (25, UW-Milwaukee) has made three starts at AA Wichita already. Regi Grace (21)was the Twins 10th round pick out of high school in Mississippi, and he just had his best start with the Mighty Mussels. 

    The Twins grabbed Matt Canterino (23) with their second-round draft pick in 2019 out of Rice University. He was an advanced college pitcher when drafted, and then he ended 2020 at the Twins alternate site. He participated in the Twins depth camp at spring training and showed an upper-90s fastball to go with a terrific pitch-mix. 

    The Twins drafted and signed ten more college pitchers between the sixth and 19th rounds that year. And then in the 30th round, they drafted Tyler Beck, a closer from Division II’s University of Tampa.  He has started the 2021 with the Cedar Rapids Kernels and is 1-0 with a 1.42 ERA. Through his first 12 2/3 innings, he has given up just three hits, walked two and struck out 15. Now, he is already 25, but he has taken a very circuitous route to where he is today and whatever he has been developing over the last year or more seems to be encouraging. 

    And that brings me back to Age. Of course, Age-to-Level-of-Competition is a factor in prospect rankings, it should be only a minor piece to an organization’s evaluation of a player. If that’s the case, the Twins never would have signed Nick Anderson out of the independent leagues, and the Marlins and Rays certainly wouldn’t have traded for him. 

    In addition, we just have to remember that the majority of these pitching prospects missed a full season of development. 

    Again, it may be hard to figure out which pitching prospects will become big leaguers, much less big league rotation members, much less All Stars. So what can you look for?

    1. Stuff - Obviously to get to the big leagues, a pitcher has to have some ‘stuff’. Stuff, in my opinion, means velocity as well as quality pitch movement and shape. Velocity obviously helps make it possible to make some more mistakes and get away with them, but we have also seen so many successful pitchers who top out at 91-92 mph. Those guys need to have quality pitches, movement, shape, sharpness. It is also important to remember that pitchers are able to improve upon those things. Josh Winder bumping his fastball from 92 to 97 is just one example. The technology the Twins have provides the coaches and pitchers to work together to increase velocity, find a more consistent release point, increase spin and more. 
    2. Command - As mentioned, a way to be successful even without triple-digit velocity is by being able to place the pitch exactly where you want to. “Control” just means that you don’t walk many batters. Command means that you are able to place the ball where you want it within the strike zone or just off it. 

    Obviously there can be more factors for a pitcher’s success as well, but those are the two biggest. In addition, having a high baseball IQ is good. Being willing to ask questions is a good thing. Talking to both Josh Winder and Matt Canterino, they learned from the veteran pitchers while at big-league spring training. However, Canterino also talked about getting to spend some time talking with Josh Donaldson about his stuff, what a hitter might be thinking in certain situations and more. Being willing to learn is very important. And finally, being able to understand that the process is more important than the results, especially lower in the minor leagues. If you are doing the right things mechanically, mentally, in your preparation, and understand that it is understanding the big picture, you can continue to learn. 

     

    Like all teams, the Twins have some very intriguing pitching prospects. A couple will make it. A couple may get a short stint. A few probably won’t get there. We will have a good idea of where the Twins front office and pitcher development programs are and will be going forward.

     

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    3 minutes ago, Major League Ready said:

    I would put virtually no weight given this small sample size.  However, I would be interested in what percentage of games started were won by the players team over the previous 2-3 years.  Tells me something about consistency and if a player is able to compete when they don't have their best stuff.

    What does percentage of games started by that player being won by their team tell you? I go out there and pitch to 6.58 ERA over 20 starts, but my bullpen has an ERA of 0 and my team averages 10 runs a game when I start and they win 18 of my 20 starts. What does that tell you about me? That's the point of this. Individual W-L record tells you nothing about the individual beyond whether or not a starter completed 5 innings or a reliever completed 1. Doesn't tell you if they gave up runs. Doesn't tell you if they pitched well. In fact you can give up a ton of runs and still earn a W which would put a positive in your scouting report, but would be wrong. Individual pitcher W-L records don't tell you anything at all. Does that mean people can't like seeing them or be interested in them? No. But in terms of gathering information about the skills of an individual player it tells you nothing. 

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    9 minutes ago, beckmt said:

    As you know, this is impossible.  What else is needed, for the lower ERA, Whip was it a mirage of ball just hit at people and unsustainable, how many strikeouts did each have,  how many of his runners left on scored (bullpen issues), hard hit or exit velocity average.  The win-loss means nothing.  Also some of it is the strength of the club they are playing for.

    This is the point. W-L record tells you nothing about an individual player. That's the point I've been trying to make. Are ERA, WHIP, WAR, or any other stat telling you 100% of the story on that player? No. But they at least tell you something about them specifically. Pitcher W-L tells you nothing outside of a starter going 5 innings or a reliever finishing 1.

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    Just now, chpettit19 said:

    This is the point. W-L record tells you nothing about an individual player. That's the point I've been trying to make. Are ERA, WHIP, WAR, or any other stat telling you 100% of the story on that player? No. But they at least tell you something about them specifically. Pitcher W-L tells you nothing outside of a starter going 5 innings or a reliever finishing 1.

    It tells you very little by itself but that's now how analysis is done.  You want to insist on this point so you are conviently ignoring all else.

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    5 minutes ago, Major League Ready said:

    It tells you very little by itself but that's now how analysis is done.  You want to insist on this point so you are conviently ignoring all else.

    Where does it rank on the list of possible pitching stats and when should a GM start caring about it? Is that better? When Jacob deGrom hits free agency are you telling him he's worth Pineda money cuz he just doesn't win games? I'm still yet to see anyone on here tell me what the pitcher W-L stat tells them about that individual pitcher and makes it a useful stat. A few people are adamant I'm wrong and it's important, but none of them have told me why it's important beyond saying it's interesting when compared to other stats.

    There are parameters set that dictate what goes into a stat and how it is earned. That is what the stat tells you. Pitcher W-L tells you a starter made it 5 innings, his team scored more runs than he gave up, and his pen never blew that lead. Or it tells you a reliever finished an inning in which his team took the lead and never gave it back. That is not useful in determining anything about those pitchers. If you can tell me what is useful about knowing Yusmeiro Petit has 6 wins this year (on it's own, not by adding in other stats) I'll listen and I'm more than willing to change my mind. If not then just accept it's interesting in relation to the past and to see deGrom never get Ws, but in and of itself the stat tells you nothing useful.

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    1 hour ago, chpettit19 said:

    Pitcher A- 9 GS, 2-2 W-L, 1.58 ERA, 0.74 WHIP

    Pitcher B- 9 GS, 5-2 W-L, 4.69 ERA, 1.38 WHIP

    Pitcher C- 9 GS, 3-5 W-L, 4.53 ERA, 1.40 WHIP

    Pitcher D- 9 GS, 4-2 W-L, 2.53 ERA, 1.03 WHIP

    Pitcher E- 6 GS, 3-2 W-L, 0.68 ERA, 0.60 WHIP

    Pitcher F- 10 GS, 5-2 W-L, 4.39 ERA, 1.19 WHIP

    Pitcher G- 9 GS, 5-3 W-L, 4.79 ERA, 1.43 WHIP

    Pitcher H- 9 GS, 4-4 W-L, 2.47 ERA, 0.86 WHIP

    Rate these pitchers in order of who you'd want and tell me how much weight you put into their W-L record. You're the GM of the Twins trying to win a WS and these are the guys you have available to sign. Tell me how useful their W-L records are when deciding who to sign.

    To give you an answer, since you are requesting one, and you took the time to make that awesome table of pitchers, I want pitcher E, becasue it is Jacob deGrom. But if I was the Twins FO, I would select pitchers B,C,F, or G.... because that is what they do to supply new pitchers to our team. Or worse stat pitchers. I don't mind the sss for your purposes. It really doesn't matter for your mission.

    Enjoy your arguing. It doesn't matter what anyone else chimes in with, you are considering it 'noise'. You hear what you want to hear. No one has said that W/L is the most important stat. Nobody, You can win if you like. I am fine with considering W/L stats not useless for my baseball considerations. You can chose what you like.

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    14 hours ago, h2oface said:

    To give you an answer, since you are requesting one, and you took the time to make that awesome table of pitchers, I want pitcher E, becasue it is Jacob deGrom. But if I was the Twins FO, I would select pitchers B,C,F, or G.... because that is what they do to supply new pitchers to our team. Or worse stat pitchers. I don't mind the sss for your purposes. It really doesn't matter for your mission.

    Enjoy your arguing. It doesn't matter what anyone else chimes in with, you are considering it 'noise'. You hear what you want to hear. No one has said that W/L is the most important stat. Nobody, You can win if you like. I am fine with considering W/L stats not useless for my baseball considerations. You can chose what you like.

    The problem is neither you nor anyone else arguing for pitcher W-L has been able to tell me why it's important or useful. If your entire argument for anything in life is "we used to use it" then it's just noise. Sorry. I have no problem with you considering W-L stats useful. You can't tell me why they're useful so it doesn't make sense to me why you'd consider them useful, but that's your choice.

    But this conversation got started with you saying Seth's credibility "takes a hit" because he doesn't consider it a useful stat. I explained in multiple ways why it's not useful and your response is to mock the front office while continuing to not explain why anyone should find you credible in the least when it comes to stats. If you're going to publicly question someone's credibility it may be prudent to have a better reason than "it's how it used to be." But thank you for letting me "win." Very kind of you.

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    Pitching has continued to evolve in the last decade. Velocity is up everywhere. Once upon a time, a team might have one guy who threw fastballs at over 95 mph and now most teams have three or more such guys. It has become understood and expected that being assigned to the bullpen will add significantly to the fastball. On the downside, injuries seem to be increasing, most likely because of the maximum effort required to throw so hard. 

    In addition to figuring out which pitchers have the stuff to thrive in the majors, the front office also has to figure which pitchers are most likely destined for the bullpen, whether that is because their stuff will then "play up" or because their chances of staying healthy will increase. 

    I would like to see what the "arm farm" has to offer. The long-term success of the Twins' franchise depends on homegrown talent and right now most of their pitching staff is either major league or minor league free-agent signings.

     

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    17 hours ago, chpettit19 said:

    When analyzing data, the more USEFUL metrics you have the better. Some things are absolutely noise. The point of individual stats is to tell you useful information about that individual. When that metric measures far more about your team than it does about you it is noise and not helpful.

    Isn't the pitcher a part of the team?  This is why you analyze further.  How much of the measurement was due to this particular individual on the team?

    You want this to be a black and white issue.  It's just not.

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    5 minutes ago, Dodecahedron said:

    Isn't the pitcher a part of the team?  This is why you analyze further.  How much of the measurement was due to this particular individual on the team?

    You want this to be a black and white issue.  It's just not.

    That's why W-L is a useful team stat, not individual stat. Jorge Alcala "earned" a win last night. How useful is that to telling you how he performed last night? At best it's useless, at worst it actually tells you a false story of success and you're giving him positive marks for having blown a hold situation and given the other team the lead.

    W-L Records from 2019

    18-4

    17-6

    15-4

    15-7

    14-12

    What do those stats tell you about any of those pitchers? That's the question. When you're talking about an individual stat being useful you have to look at that stat on it's own and see what it's telling you. Who pitched well in that group and who didn't? An individual stat is supposed to tell you about that individual. None of them tell you 100% about that individual, but W-L tells you basically 0%. It gives you no meaningful information. If you still find it interesting to see W-L records that's fine. But the stat tells you nothing of use about an individual player's performance.

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    17 hours ago, Mike Sixel said:

    I want DeGrom regardless of the individual win stat in a team game.....I think that's the point here. But, man, it would be great if that wasn't what this thread was about....

     

    You might not have noticed I modified the scenario to what percentage of games were won by the team over a large sample size so I am advocating using win/loss in a different context and with consideration to a myriad of other stats.  Individual Win / Loss has limited value but it's not a completely useless stat if properly positioned and utilized in concert with other stats.  I am not sure where you were going with the comment regarding what the thread is about.  This tangent has little to do with building a pitching pipeline.  My observation is that many here focus on block buster trades and huge free agent signings.  However, when you look at playoff teams and specifically mid market or lower revenue teams, pitching and the team construction in general are products of savvy trades for guys who have not yet been established.  In some cases that profile is players that have minimal MLB experience and sometimes its trading for Tatis Jr when he is 19.  It’s the Whitesox trading away sale and Eaton or the Royals trading Grienke.

    The same kind of focus on the highest profile players extends to drafting both here and internationally.  Some here assume it’s essential to take pitchers in the 1st and 2nd rounds.  Where is the supporting data?  Degrom was a 9th rounder and there countless examples like him.  The same type of assumption exists with international signees.  Several people have made the same assumption that the best strategy is signing the huge bonus guys.  Where is the data to support this theory?  I have looked back at several international drafts and the #1.5M guys have actually become great players more often than the $3M guys.  Of course, this is a gross generalization but the numbers suggest signing two or three well regarded prospects instead of the highest profile ($2.5-$4M) international prospects is the best strategy.

    I thought did a nice job of profiling Cleveland’s approach and success.  We are going to find out over the next couple of years if the new regime has found and developed picks in later rounds or acquired them by trading rentals that are more than back of the rotation guys. 

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    21 hours ago, MMMordabito said:

    Blayne Enlow - A+
    Charlie Barnes - AAA
    Bryan Sammons - AA
    Calvin Faucher - AA
    Bailey Ober - AAA
    Derek Molina - A+

    Those are the pitchers left from the 2017 draft (Falvine's first).  Running out of time and horses for that Bieber/Civale/Plesac emergence from that group.  Twins have four innings from Ober so far.

    Meanwhile, Cleveland has just a many pitchers left from that year. Karinchak has already arrived despite the Garlick homer.  Kyle Nelson just got called up as well. 

    I don't disagree with you.  I never liked the Leach pick and a lot experts thought Rooker was a reach where he was taken as well especially given his age.  Have to remember though the two biggest upside guys they got were teenagers in Lewis and Enlow so was likely going to take longer for them make it.  Lewis would probably already be playing if not for a tough year in High A ball, Covid and then injury.  looks like 2023 before a Major contribution for him.

    Barnes and Sammons are your typical 5th starter lefties that will be hard pressed to make it.  Ober has a chance but unlikely to be more than a 5th starter if his stuff does actually play so none of those guys look like a Cleveland type starter to me.  It is pretty much Enlow or bust for 2017.

    2018 looks a bit more promising with Winder and Sands but will have to wait and see.

     

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