Jump to content
Twins Daily
  • Create Account
  • Will Twins Address Their Most Glaring Weakness?


    Nick Nelson

    With the trade deadline approaching and the Twins firmly in the mix, much talk has surrounded the need for bullpen upgrades, and rightfully so. Recently we looked at some potentially available relievers that could help that unit.

    However, if the Twins want to address their greatest weakness, both now and going forward, they're going to have to make a bolder and more aggressive move.

    Image courtesy of Benny Sieu, USA Today

    Twins Video

    After going 0-for-8 this weekend against the A's, Kurt Suzuki is hitting .227/.283/.303 for a .585 OPS that ranks 14th out of 15 MLB catchers with 250+ plate appearances. The only lower mark belongs to Mike Zunino, who at least offers some upside as a 24-year-old former top draft pick with big minor league numbers.

    There's no such hidden promise with Suzuki. He is what he is: a very competent backup catcher who has been holding onto a starting role, based on a good first half in 2014, and a lack of viable alternatives.

    That lack of alternatives is the deep issue at play here. Because while the Twins don't desperately need to replace Suzuki at this moment – he can be hidden at the bottom of the lineup and mostly holds his own defensively – it's a clear spot where they need to get better going forward. And unlike shortstop, where Danny Santana's struggles are rendered less perturbing by the presence of names like Jorge Polanco and Nick Gordon in the system, the cupboard here is bare. The organization's depth at catcher is dreadfully thin.

    The Twins have tried Chris Herrmann and Eric Fryer as backups for Suzuki this year. Both are fringe major-league talents. Josmil Pinto, who was a hopeful successor behind the plate, lacks strong receiving skills and now has been battling concussion symptoms for most of the season, so he's basically out of the mix.

    Looking deeper into the system, you won't find much. Stuart Turner, who at No. 17 was the only backstop to rank among our Top 20 Twins prospects before the season, has a .577 OPS at Double-A. Mitch Garver, who showed some good signs in Cedar Rapids last year, has stalled out at Ft. Myers.

    The Twins need a long-term answer at the position and they're not going to find it from within, at least not for several years, so trading for a quality young catcher with some team control makes an awful lot of sense. It is something that could be addressed during the offseason, but pulling off a deal now would have the obvious added bonus of boosting their chances down the stretch this year.

    The problem is that acquiring such a player is a pricy proposition, particularly under the seller-friendly circumstances of the trade deadline. Young catchers with two-way skills are highly valued, with good reason. They are hard to find and they are major assets.

    Still, here are three players that I would target:

    Jonathan Lucroy - Brewers

    He's very appealing, for many reasons. He's under 30. He's a very good hitter who can be slotted into the middle of the lineup when healthy. He is considered strong defensively and is rated very highly by pitch-framing metrics. And best of all, he is under team control for 2016 and 2017 for less than $10 million – a tremendous value.

    Of course, for all those reasons and especially the latter, the Brewers will be very reluctant to trade Lucroy even though they're hopelessly out of contention. If he could be pried away for any prospect package that doesn't include Buxton, Sano or Berrios, Terry Ryan would have to pull the trigger. However, I'm doubtful that Milwaukee will be amenable, especially since they lack an MLB-ready replacement for Lucroy.

    Derek Norris - Padres

    Like Lucroy, Norris is a fairly young catcher with some offensive chops who could stick around for a while. Just 26, he is not eligible for free agency until 2018. San Diego might be a little more open to dealing, however, since they have a potential successor in place. Austin Hedges is one of their top prospects and is already up in the majors backing up Norris. Would a package built around, say, Oswaldo Arcia and Alex Meyer do the trick?

    Andrew Susac - Giants

    Here's a sneaky option. Susac is presently Buster Posey's backup in San Francisco, but many believe he has the stuff to start. A former second-round draft pick, he was rated as a Top 100 prospect prior to this year by both Baseball America and Baseball Prospectus, has smashed Double-A and Triple-A pitching, and has an impressive .752 OPS in 218 big-league plate appearances.

    The Giants might have their own plans for Susac – no one expects Posey to stay at catcher forever – but if they were blown away by an offer they'd have to consider it.

    None of these three players would be easy to land. It would surely mean parting with multiple high-end young talents, and that's a tough pill for a rebuilding team to swallow. But if the Twins want to make the leap to the next level, sooner or later they'll need to address their situation behind the plate.

    MORE FROM TWINS DAILY
    — Latest Twins coverage from our writers
    — Recent Twins discussion in our forums
    — Follow Twins Daily via Twitter, Facebook or email
    — Become a Twins Daily Caretaker

     Share


    User Feedback

    Recommended Comments



    Featured Comments

     

     

    I think the most realistic scenario for a trade for a young catcher with potential likely involves Plouffe this winter.  Plouffe with a good, but not our top prospects gets it done.

    Agreed, I think you can just go get a rental type like AJ now for catcher and then step back and address the problem long term during the off-season.

    Link to comment
    Share on other sites

     

     

    What if you took half the salary of one of those over paid corner guys? How many millions (in effect) would you pay for Norris, and give up a decent prospect?

    Kemp?

    No thanks.

    Link to comment
    Share on other sites

     

    "Absurdly cheap," eh? The Padres acquired Norris in December for Jesse Hahn and R.J. Alvarez, a minor-league starter and reliever, neither of whom were ranked as Top 100 prospects. Now Norris has a 684 OPS through his first half-season with them. I'm going to need you to elaborate on this viewpoint. It might not be enough, I don't know, that's why I was genuinely asking for feedback... but "absurd"? Nah.

     

    If I'm the offense-needy Padres, I'd love to get my hands on a young hitter of Arcia's caliber. The notion that anyone views him as a "bust" at age 24, as someone posited earlier on this thread, is what's absurd.

     

    The "absurdly" was a little hyperbole in your honor, but this is certainly low on Norris. Especially because of the Padres lack of need for a corner OF.

    Link to comment
    Share on other sites

     

    I think the most realistic scenario for a trade for a young catcher with potential likely involves Plouffe this winter.  Plouffe with a good, but not our top prospects gets it done.

    Yup, this.  Sano should be at 3B medium to long-term and one or more of Arcia, Vargas, or as of yet unknown free agent should be at DH.

    Link to comment
    Share on other sites

     

    Agreed, I think you can just go get a rental type like AJ now for catcher and then step back and address the problem long term during the off-season.

    Yep, but I wouldn't even bother on the rental.  Whoever they would get it not going to be much better than Suzuki.  Not worth giving up even mediocre prospect and upsetting the pitching apple cart.

    Link to comment
    Share on other sites

     

    :jump:   I see there's still a lot of people doing bargain shopping. 

    I view minor league players with a more skeptical eye than many of you.  I don't believe a player in your MiLB system at single A level can or should be your #1 prospect.  Or a 16 yr. old kid just signed from the international pool is suddenly the #10 prospect in your system.  If these things are true, you've got a pretty bad system. 

     

    If the Twins are contemplating a trade, EVERYONE is available. 

    So you didn't think Buxton should have been the #1 prospect in the Twins system in mid to late 2013? Ok then. If you said it is "rare" that a player in your MiLB system at single A level can or should be your #1 prospect, then I might agree. But this seems kind of like a pointless, arbitrary rule. And I don't think most people think Javier is a top 10 prospect, or even a top 20 prospect really (I assume this is what you are referring to). Maybe a couple do, but that seems kind of like a straw man to me.  Finally, why is EVERYONE available if the Twins are contemplating a trade? Again, seems kind of like an arbitrary rule. Maybe you mean Buxton and Sano would hypothetically be available if someone offers a top 10 player in MLB. Sure, ok then. That's not going to happen though. For all practical purposes Buxton and Sano are off limits.

    Link to comment
    Share on other sites

     

    I like Trevor but if we want to get a good, young catcher the price is going to be premium. 

     

    I did say it would have to be a good, young, catcher or SS.....but some of the trades here have him going for a dang RP.....I really think it is a huge risk to trade Plouffe....

    Link to comment
    Share on other sites

     

    I don't agree with trading a top 10 3B in Plouffe.....I just don't get it. Not unless you get a MLB player, SS or C, that is signed for 2+ years. And, he'd have to be top 10 at his position......

    Well, because you have a potential (I know, that word) top 5 3B on your team as well, and nobody decent to play catcher. That's what I see. I am pretty sure those of us saying trade Plouffe for a C (this winter btw, not right now) are talking about someone with more than 2 years left of control. I certainly am. I wouldn't trade him for a 1 or 2 year rental.

    Link to comment
    Share on other sites

     

    I get what Sano could be....but he could also be your RF or 1B or DH, so, that's why I said you'd have to get a C or SS.....

    Agreed. I thought this thread was about trading for catchers, no?

     

    I did say it would have to be a good, young, catcher or SS.....but some of the trades here have him going for a dang RP.....I really think it is a huge risk to trade Plouffe....

    Who suggested trading Plouffe for a relief pitcher (other than Chapman maybe)? I agree that is ridiculous.

    Link to comment
    Share on other sites

     

    The "absurdly" was a little hyperbole in your honor, but this is certainly low on Norris. Especially because of the Padres lack of need for a corner OF.

    OK. Do you have an alternative package that might get it done? It may take different players but I'm not sure it takes a whole lot more, given the bar that has recently been set for Norris' trade value and his lack of production this year. 

    Link to comment
    Share on other sites

     

    I get what Sano could be....but he could also be your RF or 1B or DH, so, that's why I said you'd have to get a C or SS.....

    I wouldn't even trade him for a SS; only for a catcher.  We've got enough options at SS that I think it will work out.  We KNOW we have a problem behind the plate.

    Link to comment
    Share on other sites

     

    I wouldn't even trade him for a SS; only for a catcher.  We've got enough options at SS that I think it will work out.  We KNOW we have a problem behind the plate.

     

    Fair, but I don't believe in Santana or Polanco at SS.....and Gordon is 2-3 years away, so I'd consider it for the correct SS (no idea who that would be).

     

    but, if you could get a legit catcher, I'd prefer that, agreed.

    Link to comment
    Share on other sites

     

    Plawecki is currently the Mets starter, with d'Arnaud on the DL, and they're just as much in contention as the Twins are.

    True, that's fair.  I think we could trade for him this offseason though, when catcher will still be a glaring weakness for us.

    Link to comment
    Share on other sites

     

    "Absurdly cheap," eh? The Padres acquired Norris in December for Jesse Hahn and R.J. Alvarez, a minor-league starter and reliever, neither of whom were ranked as Top 100 prospects. Now Norris has a 684 OPS through his first half-season with them. I'm going to need you to elaborate on this viewpoint. It might not be enough, I don't know, that's why I was genuinely asking for feedback... but "absurd"? Nah.

     

    If I'm the offense-needy Padres, I'd love to get my hands on a young hitter of Arcia's caliber. The notion that anyone views him as a "bust" at age 24, as someone posited earlier on this thread, is what's absurd.

    Hahn wasn't a "minor league starter" last winter any more than Trevor May is a "minor league starter" right now -- he had a 112 ERA+ and 8.6 K/9 in 73 MLB innings already.  And while not a top prospect, Alvarez was a reliever with a career 13.3 K/9 in the minors, who had already appeared in MLB (and had a 10.1 K/9 in 8 IP).  Neither had yet to really struggle at any professional level.

     

    I know it seems affordable and I wish the Twins could have topped that offer, but for all our minor league depth, we didn't have two available pieces with that combination of MLB experience and success.  Still don't, really, unless we want to deal May or Gibson.

     

    And Norris' .684 OPS is a 93 wRC+ in Petco -- not a star but 13th out of 26 MLB catchers with 200+ PA.  He's on pace for a 3.2 WAR season.

     

    Arcia and Meyer are not official busts yet, but they're both trending in that direction.  Arcia has spent the last 2.5 years looking a lot like a left-handed Dayan Viciedo impersonator.  Unless San Diego was confident in a specific coaching plan that could turn them around, I think they ask for more or different pieces for Norris.

    Link to comment
    Share on other sites

     

    I don't agree with trading a top 10 3B in Plouffe.....I just don't get it. Not unless you get a MLB player, SS or C, that is signed for 2+ years. And, he'd have to be top 10 at his position......

     

    I like Trevor but if we want to get a good, young catcher the price is going to be premium. 

     

    Isn't that what Mike said?  Your scenario of- Plouffe for a MLB catcher- is one I'm assuming is at the top of Ryan's list of potential offseason strategies.

    Link to comment
    Share on other sites

    I'm a little late to this party, but I agree with VodkaDave and others that the proposed idea of Arcia & Meyer for Norris would not do the trick. Even if they traded away Justin Upton, which is certainly likely by July 31, they have Kemp / Myers and 35 other guys to choose from to fill a corner OF spot.

     

    Would it be safe to say that acquiring a young C who can field and hit is similar to acquiring a young QB in the NFL? They're both premium spots in their respective sports, and if we really want a fix, we're going to have to pony up more than we'd like to get it done.

     

    Sure, the Twins could go for the bargains out there with AJ, Pena/etc. but we'll be back in the same situation next year because they are not long term solutions.....

     

    The reality is our farm system is not top 3 anymore with recent grads of Rosario, Buxton, Sano, etc. There's a couple left (Berrios, Gordon, maybe Kepler) that other teams would covet in a trade, and the rest are depth players that's not going to drive the needle up in trade negotiations. I would be very hesitant in giving up Berrios, but I would think long and hard about it if he were able to bring in a C for the long term...

    Link to comment
    Share on other sites

     

    Arcia has spent the last 2.5 years looking a lot like a left-handed Dayan Viciedo impersonator. 

    You just pointed out why that's not a valid comparison. If Viciedo was left-handed, he'd be way more valuable than he is right now.

     

    Arcia dominates 70% of pitchers. Viciedo dominates 30% of pitchers. Yeah, they're both possible platoon candidates but one is far more valuable than the other.

     

    And that's not including the peripherals of the two players, which indicate more potential improvement from Arcia than Viciedo (namely Oswaldo's acceptable .062 isoD to Dayan's meager .044). Viciedo has 1800 MLB PAs to Arcia's 850 MLB PAs. There's a lot of room for Oswaldo to improve, whereas I think Viciedo is who he is (more Delmon Young than Oswaldo Arcia).

     

    I understand the comparison but just the left/right difference separate the two players and their value quite a bit.

     

    With all that said, I don't see a team like the Padres falling over themselves to acquire Arcia. NL (no DH) with a spacious park that would highlight Arcia's defensive weaknesses.

    Link to comment
    Share on other sites

     

    I'm a little late to this party, but I agree with VodkaDave and others that the proposed idea of Arcia & Meyer for Norris would not do the trick. Even if they traded away Justin Upton, which is certainly likely by July 31, they have Kemp / Myers and 35 other guys to choose from to fill a corner OF spot.

     

    Would it be safe to say that acquiring a young C who can field and hit is similar to acquiring a young QB in the NFL? They're both premium spots in their respective sports, and if we really want a fix, we're going to have to pony up more than we'd like to get it done.

     

    Sure, the Twins could go for the bargains out there with AJ, Pena/etc. but we'll be back in the same situation next year because they are not long term solutions.....

     

    The reality is our farm system is not top 3 anymore with recent grads of Rosario, Buxton, Sano, etc. There's a couple left (Berrios, Gordon, maybe Kepler) that other teams would covet in a trade, and the rest are depth players that's not going to drive the needle up in trade negotiations. I would be very hesitant in giving up Berrios, but I would think long and hard about it if he were able to bring in a C for the long term...

    No way do you give up Berrios.  I would never trade top flight pitching (or pitching prospects) for position players.  I wish I could have made it a law before Bill Smith thought it was a great idea to trade Matt Garza.

    Link to comment
    Share on other sites

     

    Viciedo has 1800 MLB PAs to Arcia's 850 MLB PAs.

    I obviously didn't mean they are similar TODAY.  But Arcia is much closer to Viciedo circa 2013 than he is to a valuable trade chip right now.

     

    Batting from the left side is probably why Arcia has a career 103 OPS+ vs Viciedo's 97.  But even the Twins have shown this year how little that performance is worth when it's accompanied by negative corner OF defense and no forward progress at the plate.

     

    Arcia was looking like a potential non-tender candidate after 2016 even before his AAA banishment.

    Link to comment
    Share on other sites

    Twins will trade for Piernzski or somebody like him now player to rent for remainder of the season and will only give up relief type pitcher lower minor league position player for the second half. Ryan will never make big trade in mid season if it involves some quality prospects. I just don't see the Twins making many moves going into Trade deadline. There going to look for reliever and fill in catcher for remainder of the year and even at reliever it just may come from the farm system.

    Link to comment
    Share on other sites

     

    No way do you give up Berrios.  I would never trade top flight pitching (or pitching prospects) for position players.  I wish I could have made it a law before Bill Smith thought it was a great idea to trade Matt Garza.

     

     

    It goes both ways my friend. You could make it a law before Bill Smith thought it was a great idea to trade Wilson Ramos.... Teams swing and miss making trades for any position.

     

    If Berrios is off-limits, that's fine, and I agree with you because he's the best pitching prospect we have. But if he's off-limits, unless these teams value Gordon, Kepler, or an MLB player like Plouffe, we're not going to get Lucroy, Norris, Susac, Plawecki, or whoever the flavor of the month is.

    Link to comment
    Share on other sites

     

    It goes both ways my friend. You could make it a law before Bill Smith thought it was a great idea to trade Wilson Ramos.... Teams swing and miss making trades for any position.

     

    If Berrios is off-limits, that's fine, and I agree with you because he's the best pitching prospect we have. But if he's off-limits, unless these teams value Gordon, Kepler, or an MLB player like Plouffe, we're not going to get Lucroy, Norris, Susac, Plawecki, or whoever the flavor of the month is.

    Agreed, which is why I think Plouffe is the best trade chip we have to fix this situation.

    Link to comment
    Share on other sites




    Join the conversation

    You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
    Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

    Guest
    Add a comment...

    ×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

      Only 75 emoji are allowed.

    ×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

    ×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

    ×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

    Loading...

×
×
  • Create New...