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  • Who Should Be Gone From the Coaching Staff?


    Nick Nelson

    After dropping four straight against the red-hot Angels over the weekend, the Twins now have 82 losses on the season. That's more than every major-league team other than Arizona, Colorado and Texas.

    This is good news because it means the Twins are likely headed toward another top pick in next year's draft. Texas is basically assured of finishing with baseball's worst record -- they're already at 89 losses -- but the Twins could easily be picking anywhere from second to fifth. Top five selections have bolstered the Minnesota system in recent years, leading to players like Byron Buxton, Kohl Stewart and Nick Gordon.

    Of course, the rapidly escalating loss total is also bad news because it means that -- once again -- the Twins are completely tanking late in the season.

    Image courtesy of Jesse Johnson, USA Today Sports

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    The sweep at the hands of the Angels marks the fourth time since the beginning of August that the Twins have lost four straight games. Their overall record during that span is 13-23 -- a .361 winning percentage that is depressingly similar to their August/September marks from the past few seasons.

    When you watch the games, you'd have a hard time saying that the team has simply given up or stopped trying. Three of the games in the Angels series were closely contested and could have gone either way. The offense has churned out runs in recent weeks.

    Yet, the Twins have lost 12 of their last 15, and as they continue to slide it's looking more and more like they might reach 95 losses in a fourth straight season. Individual bright spots have certainly been evident, but the losing just continues at an outrageous rate.

    This naturally brings us back to a question that was posed frequently in recent discussions over the outlook for the 2015 Twins: With so little on-field improvement, how can the same coaching staff remain intact going forward?

    There have been -- and will be -- calls for Ron Gardenhire's dismissal, and that's understandable. He's the manager that has overseen this extended stretch of losing, and ultimately the accountability for all this poor overall play should fall on his shoulders. It has been extremely rare in MLB history for a manager to survive four consecutive 90-loss seasons.

    However, it sounds like Terry Ryan and the Twins are (unsurprisingly) committed to bringing Gardenhire back, as they apparently consider him the best man to bring their rebuild full-circle. Many people might have a tough time stomaching that reality, but I can live with it. As frustrating as the losses have been, Gardy has done some good things with his lineups and I haven't had any major issues with his in-game management.

    The impact of his impressive young offensive unit has been negated, however, by a familiar downfall: pitching. This team has been utterly horrible at preventing runs, allowing 5.6 per game on average since the All-Star break.

    In part, that's because of poor defense, especially in the outfield. In part, it's young starters and relievers taking their lumps and learning to adjust. But the excuses run thin when you consider just how long the Twins have reigned as one of the most hittable teams in baseball. The faces change and the results stay the same.

    The Twins currently rank second-to-last among AL teams in ERA. That's the same place they've finished in each of the last three years.

    The man running this staff has had some success stories -- with Phil Hughes certainly standing out as the most notable recent example -- but those have been few and far between. More and more it seems that Rick Anderson's standing is buoyed by past accomplishments that are now disappearing in the rearview mirror. I don't have enough insight as to what happens behind the scenes to declare him a horrible pitching coach, but with the number of young hurlers that have come up and struggled, and the number of pitchers that have been drastically worse here than elsewhere, the evidence has mounted against him to the point of being overwhelming.

    For me, it would be difficult to view Anderson's retention at this point as anything more than a move to continue appeasing Gardenhire, his longtime friend and co-captain at the helm. And while I'm OK with keeping Gardy around, making decisions based around his comfort is nearly impossible to justify with the way things have been going.

    When the Twins extended Gardenhire last year, they gave him a two-year deal, meaning he's under contract for next year. But his assistants were only extended for one year. Moving on from Anderson wouldn't require firing him. But to actively re-sign him for another year, with the results we've seen in now four straight seasons, would send a really painful signal to fans.

    Whether or not he's the problem, the Twins have got to try something new.

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    Then no manager should be fired ever because they are completely dependent on everyone else on the team to do their job.  Nothing they do is an independent, measurable action that results in wins or losses.  

     

    Essentially, your position amounts to the title manager being a meaningless symbol of organization that is unassailably worthless.

     

    I agree.  Personally I think the difference between a good manager and a bad one is at most 1-3 wins per year.  So it is mostly about talent, but it does matter.  In football and basketball I think the coach is much more important.  Now the difference between a 90 loss and 93 loss team is not much obviously.  But if the goal is to hopefully be good one day, then 3 wins can be the difference between the playoffs and not, home field versus not, etc.

     

    Is Gardy a guy that is going to get close to the aditional 3 wins?  That is the question that should be answered.  I think people on these forums have identified specific thoughts as to why Gardy is not the guy.  Including, but not limited to:

     

    -This team has tailed off each year.

     

    -3rd catcher

     

    -the lineup

     

    -lack of platooning

     

    -playing players out of position.  To me, if Santana or Pinto saw reps at their natural position in April-June, maybe they would have improved and been of value to this team in August, September, or next year? 

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    Essentially, your position amounts to the title manager being a meaningless symbol of organization that is unassailably worthless.

    Where did that come from?  Fire someone for cause not as a symbolic gestures.

    Slick Gardner seemed clueless at times. When they hired Ray Miller he was suposed to be the next genius from the  line of Earl Weaver. For  a lot of reasons that did not work. They promoted Kelly. In the late 90's was Kelly any worse of a manager than from 87-92? 2 managers fired for cause, one was kept as teams lost because he wasn't the problem.

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    Where did that come from?  Fire someone for cause not as a symbolic gestures.

    Slick Gardner seemed clueless at times. When they hired Ray Miller he was suposed to be the next genius from the  line of Earl Weaver. For  a lot of reasons that did not work. They promoted Kelly. In the late 90's was Kelly any worse of a manager than from 87-92? 2 managers fired for cause, one was kept as teams lost because he wasn't the problem.

    "Looking clueless" sounds like the kind of token nonsense you use for a symbolic firing. It's certainly a pretty silly "cause" to line up behind.

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    Your examples of managers replaced were managers who proved they could not win. Gardenhire has won when he has had the players, lost when he hasn't

     

    Sorry, the abysmal post-season record takes away from winning in the regular season. They not only failed to make it out of the LDS five years. They failed to even play in a deciding Game Five.  

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    Sorry, the abysmal post-season record takes away from winning in the regular season. They not only failed to make it out of the LDS five years. They failed to even play in a deciding Game Five.  

    Whatever baseball was played by the Twins from 2002-2010 was totally meaningless then? When you look at playoff winning teams and the starting pitching staffs of the Twins I do not see anything that would match up. The teams appeared to be buiilt to win in the regular season, not short season. Perhaps one of the reasons there has been a trade Duensing theme is the 2 playoff starts, and losses.

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    Whatever baseball was played by the Twins from 2002-2010 was totally meaningless then? When you look at playoff winning teams and the starting pitching staffs of the Twins I do not see anything that would match up.

    In order to defend your desire that Gardenhire remain manager and Anderson remain pitching coach, you have just claimed that the Twins didn't have any good starting pitching from say, oh, 2004 to 2006.

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    So, if Gardy is only successful when they have great players, and awful when they have bad ones, why keep him? The argument seems to be that the success of the team is largely out of his hands. If so, why keep him around if he doesn't make the team better than they should be?

     

    Exactly, if your best defense for keeping the guy is basically to conclude his position is irrelevant....why do you care if he's replaced?

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    In order to defend your desire that Gardenhire remain manager and Anderson remain pitching coach, you have just claimed that the Twins didn't have any good starting pitching from say, oh, 2004 to 2006.

    1. Please find anywhere in this thread where I said Anderson needs to be retained.

    2 They had 1 great pitcher, 1 good. Recent WS loser pitching staffs and 2006 Twins.  Which staff do you want in a playoff series?

     Wainright, Wacha, Lynn

     Verlander, Sanchez, Scherzer

    Wilson, Holland, Harrison

    or

    Santana, Radke, Bonser

    Santana had to be near perfect when the bats choked. He couldn't do it by himself. Radke was good, but not great.  When the Twins won in Oakland Radke was great. By 2006 there was nothing left.

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    My origional response probably should have been what do you expect to happen with a different manager with this group of players. Silly me thought the reason to change the manager was to improve the team. Improvements generally are reflected in the w/l column with a lot more under the w column than there was before.The position of manager is not an irrelevant one. It is reduced to such when you fire someone as a symbolic gesture. Again, to use the question, if the manager is irrelevant, what do you care if he is there or not. If the manager is relevant then it should show in w/l. Historically, bad teams are bad no matter who manages them. Bad players are bad players. There were teams that improved after firing a manager. They were high caliber teams.  Good players have played better with better managers.  Do you believe the Twins have a roster full of good players and what is holding them back is Gardenhire? Do you think the S outfield of Shaffer, Santana, and Somebody else is going to carry you to the chase for the playoffs, much less carry you through the playoffs? 

     

     

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