Jump to content
Twins Daily
  • Create Account
  • What If The Twins Stand Pat?


    Seth Stohs

    Right before midnight last night, the news came that the Blue Jays had acquired shortstop Troy Tulowitzki and LaTroy Hawkins from the Colorado Rockies in exchange for Jose Reyes and three good prospects. The expected response from many Twins fans came. We are now four days from the trade deadline, plenty of time to bolster the ball club. But what if the Twins decide not to make a deal by the deadline?

    Image courtesy of Denny Medley, USA Today

    Twins Video

    I remember one July night in 2004. I had finished playing a couple of slow-pitch softball games and was at a local establishment with some of the guys when I saw that the White Sox had acquired All Star outfielder Carl Everett. I went home and wrote a scathing blog post about how the White Sox had made a move and would likely run away with the division.

    I was about a year into blogging. The Twins won the division by nine games that year.

    Since then, I’ve matured and realized that no matter what deals are made, the game is still played between the lines and on the field. The best example may have been the 2014 Oakland A’s. They had one of the best records in baseball last year at this time. Billy Beane made the decision to “go for it” and gave up a lot to acquire starting pitchers Jon Lester and Jeff Samardzija. The team tanked and then lost the wild card game to the Kansas City Royals.

    There is just one absolute in baseball, in my opinion, and that is that there are no absolutes. It’s a great game because you just never know what’s going to happen.

    That said, making sound moves in July can certainly help. Improving the level of talent on your team is never a bad thing and can improve the odds of winning. It’s just not a guarantee that there will be actual winning.

    With all that said, what would happen if the Twins and GM Terry Ryan decide to stand pat at the July 31 trade deadline? The honest answer from all of us should be “Who knows?”

    The Twins currently have a three game lead over the Toronto Blue Jays in the race for the second wild card. Adding Tulowitzki to baseball’s best offense certainly is big. That said, the Blue Jays still need pitching and are linked to some quality starters.

    The Twins have three perceived needs; shortstop, catcher and relief pitching. Let’s look at each of those areas and see what would need to happen with each for the Twins to win.

    CATCHER

    As I wrote a couple of weeks ago, Kurt Suzuki has been pretty bad to this point in 2015. He had a terrific first four months last year and earned his first All-Star experience, but since that game, he has returned to the player that he has been the last three or four years, which isn’t very good. The Twins don’t need him to post a .700 OPS the rest of the way to succeed, but an OPS in the mid-.600s would be good. They also need him to lead the way behind the plate. He has the confidence of his pitchers and that is important. He’s been better of late, hitting .297 over his past 11 games.

    SHORTSTOP

    Paul Molitor’s ability to continue putting Danny Santana into the lineup at shortstop is equal parts impressive and frustrating. We all see the talent and athleticism that Santana possesses, and we saw how that could look on the field in 2014. It’s just been a bad year for Santana. He’s been arguably the worst full-time player in baseball this year.

    If Molitor continues to write Santana’s name into the lineup, Santana doesn’t need to hit .319 like he did last year. He needs to take good at-bats, maybe mix in an occasional walk and drive the ball the way he did in 2014. As important, or maybe more important, he needs to be consistent in the field.

    Eduardo Nunez has been getting quite a bit of playing time at shortstop. Though he doesn’t have much range, he has been solid, making most of the plays he gets to. Eduardo Escobar was terrific at shortstop a year ago, offensively and defensively. By going from Santana to Escobar, they would be going from really bad (to this point) to a league average shortstop, which would be a huge improvement.

    In my mind, trading for a shortstop is not a high priority because I think they have an internal option that can be just fine.

    RELIEF PITCHING

    The Twins bullpen, outside of their closer, has been a mess the last couple of months. Blaine Boyer and Aaron Thompson were terrific the first two months but reality has set in for them. Brian Duensing was pretty bad for three months, but he has returned to form in the last month. Thompson was replaced by Ryan O’Rourke, who has been good in his three weeks in the big leagues. Casey Fien has not been the pitcher that he was the last two seasons with the Twins. He has missed time already this season with injury.

    Adding a veteran reliever sounds great. I was a big proponent of the Twins getting LaTroy Hawkins because 1.) he’s been really good since coming off the DL, and 2.) it would not have cost a lot in terms of prospects to get him.

    There are quite a few similar relievers available, so I don’t think that the Twins need to go after an Aroldis Chapman or Craig Kimbrel to improve the bullpen. They don’t need to give up top prospects to improve the bullpen. In fact, there will be several quality relievers available in August as well.

    The other thing to remember is that the relievers that the Twins would be receiving at the end of July would likely get between 25 to 30 innings pitched the rest of the season. The nature of relief pitching says that is a pretty small sample size to be able to know how a guy will perform.

    The Twins have guys in Rochester that are capable of coming up and doing well for 25 innings the rest of the way. First, Trevor May was brought in to a one-run game in the eighth inning and came through. He could start seeing more situations like that. Michael Tonkin and AJ Achter continue to pitch well in Rochester. Also, Red Wings starters Tyler Duffey and Taylor Rogers could come up and perform down the stretch.

    If the Twins choose not to go get a reliever, it isn’t the end of the world. However, it will mean that guys in the organization will have to piece it together and come up big down the stretch.

    SUMMARY

    I expect that the Twins will be active in the next four days. Based on little, I expect the Twins will make two moves over the next four days. I don’t expect them to be big names, and I expect (and hope) that the Twins don’t part with any of their top prospects.

    The Twins and Terry Ryan have spent the last three years building up one of baseball’s best farm systems. There is a clear long-term plan in place, and my hope is that this trade deadline would not be a big step back to that plan. In reality, the Twins have used some of their youth to put themselves in this position. They have received contributions from Trevor May, Eddie Rosario and Miguel Sano. They will also need veterans like Trevor Plouffe, Brian Dozier and Joe Mauer to lead the offense while Glen Perkins, Phil Hughes and Ervin Santana lead the pitching staff.

    That said, the Twins players have put themselves in a position to compete in August and September. It would not be right to not supplement the current roster with some additions. Right now, they have the lead in the wild card race. Though experts don’t expect the Twins success to continue, they are there now, so they might as well go for it. Just not at the expense of the future.

    Can the Twins make the playoffs if they stand pat? Of course, they can. A lot would have to go right though. If the Twins add minor pieces, or even major pieces, would it guarantee a playoff berth? Of course not. Appeasing fans is never a good reason for making a move, but a strategic move can certainly create some excitement.

    MORE FROM TWINS DAILY
    — Latest Twins coverage from our writers
    — Recent Twins discussion in our forums
    — Follow Twins Daily via Twitter, Facebook or email
    — Become a Twins Daily Caretaker

     Share


    User Feedback

    Recommended Comments



    Featured Comments

     

    He's not a good one now. His range factor is negative and that generally doesn't increase with age. If he's a SS in 2017 it's only because Toronto has nowhere else to put him, he's definately on the Hanley Rameriz train to Cornertown.

    First, range factor? Why is that the stat to look at?  It doesn't actually measure range.

     

    Second, because of one downturn year on defense he'll fall off the map?Because of one season?  That's a trend?  He accumulated 5.3 WAR in less than 100 games last year and is projected to have 3 more WAR than Reyes next year.  What, he's gonna drop like stone right after that at the ripe age of 32?

    Edited by jimmer
    Link to comment
    Share on other sites

     

    Not to mention that Gibson is quite a bit more valuable than what the Rockies got from the Jays.

     

    No matter how you view Gibson's past six weeks, he's more valuable than a 80-ish prospect who isn't missing bats in AA.

    They gave up the best shortstop in baseball and a decent reliever for the Blue Jays salary dump, top 100, but not top 50, prospect and some filler.

    Link to comment
    Share on other sites

     

    Not to mention that Gibson is quite a bit more valuable than what the Rockies got from the Jays.

     

    No matter how you view Gibson's past six weeks, he's more valuable than a 80-ish prospect who isn't missing bats in AA.

     

    I disagree... Hoffman was considered a possible #1 overall pick until he had Tommy John surgery in college. Castro is very highly thought of. And they got Reyes, who will also bring back a couple more really good prospects. So, at the end of the day, the Rockies will likely get 2 really good prospects (top 5 in the org types) and 3-4 other Top 15 type of prospects for Tulo.

    Link to comment
    Share on other sites

     

    I disagree... Hoffman was considered a possible #1 overall pick until he had Tommy John surgery in college. Castro is very highly thought of. And they got Reyes, who will also bring back a couple more really good prospects. So, at the end of the day, the Rockies will likely get 2 really good prospects (top 5 in the org types) and 3-4 other Top 15 type of prospects for Tulo.

    He's somewhat highly thought of but he's closer to Kohl Stewart than Kyle Gibson.

     

    Unless the prospect is a blue-chipper, a competent cost-controlled guy like Gibson is more valuable (never mind that Gibson has looked more than competent of late).

    Link to comment
    Share on other sites

     

    I disagree... Hoffman was considered a possible #1 overall pick until he had Tommy John surgery in college. Castro is very highly thought of. And they got Reyes, who will also bring back a couple more really good prospects. So, at the end of the day, the Rockies will likely get 2 really good prospects (top 5 in the org types) and 3-4 other Top 15 type of prospects for Tulo.

    I highly doubt Reyes is going to bring back 2 really good prospects, I would be shocked if he can get one of those, and am guessing its closer to a top 10 guy instead of a top 5 guy (unless money is involved or another bad contract)

     

    Reyes is a good player still but that contract is brutal, I want him on the Twins, but only if they can ship over Nolasco's contract in return.

    Edited by DaveW
    Link to comment
    Share on other sites

     

    Uh...

     

    they haven't tried Pelfrey in the pen yet.

    they haven't tried Berrios or Dufffey or Rogers in the pen yet.

     

    Pitching is pitching, and its a team game. Save resources, move guys into different roles.

     

    Same might even go for the SS hole. Its amazing to me that the Twins can be so wildly flexible about putting infielders in the outfield but don't seem to have considered putting Dozier back at SS. His defense was disproportionately penalized by a couple of high-profile gaffes in 2012 but overall, it really wasn't that bad. He's every bit as athletic as Escobar. Get him back at SS, and bring up Polanco to play 2B. At least its worth a shot.

     

    Even at C - has anyone else noticed Eric Fryer sitting among the top framers at baseball prospectus? He still may not have enough bat but maybe he should be catching a greater share of games.

     

    Unless/until the Twins exhaust some of these options it seems premature to ship away talent.

    You are on thin ice here. I suggested that MAYBE Mauer could take some ABs in RF to free up some ABs for Arcia (having Sano or Plouffe play 1B sometimes) coming up and it was treated like I had suggested throwing me out there. Even though that is literally one of the most common position switches in the majors. I mean the Twins had Chris Colabello do it last season but having a better athlete do it makes zero sense?? 

     

    As you said, the team carts utility infielders and backup catchers out there like its their first option and Mauer couldn't do it?

     

    Then you wouldn't have to carry a well below replacement Shane Robinson on the roster and you could get Arcia's bat (but avoid his awful OF defense everyday) back on the roster. He has nothing to prove at AAA anymore and the team needs bats.

    Link to comment
    Share on other sites

     

    I disagree... Hoffman was considered a possible #1 overall pick until he had Tommy John surgery in college. Castro is very highly thought of. And they got Reyes, who will also bring back a couple more really good prospects. So, at the end of the day, the Rockies will likely get 2 really good prospects (top 5 in the org types) and 3-4 other Top 15 type of prospects for Tulo.

    except that he did have TJ surgery and going into this season, he was Kiley Ms #67 prospect.  They also have to actually trade Reyes AND get quality for him. Brock was talking about what the Rockies got in THIS trade, not about what Hoffman was or just assuming the Rockies wouldn't mess up the Reyes trade too., if the trade even happens.

    Edited by jimmer
    Link to comment
    Share on other sites

    The question is: who do the Twins have that someone wants in a trade.

     

    Prospects!

     

    Like the Astros, the Twins have to look not only short-term (this Fall's additions to the 40-man) but at next year's crop of protectable prospects. The Astros are suddenly seeing that they can't find space for everyone they have in the system to protect and maybe, yes maybe, they should go and get some finer pieces for their team.

     

    The Twins may still be a full-year from this decision making process, as up to 13 spots on their current 40-man are filled by people who shouldn't be here next year.

     

    And that is the killer. Any value in those 13? Not seeing it. Are the guys producing at Rochester as valuable, as any of these 13? Sadly, many of those names are on par...except that they want to get and keep a big league job.

     

    The Twins have been playing obverall solid ball this year. But many of the players have done nothing to increase their own value in the marketplace (Pelfrey, Fien, Nunez, Robinson and any numebr of relief pitchers). Yet the names in the minors (Tonkin, Achter, Oliveros, Darnell, Thompson, Wheeler) have done little or nothing to make you want to keep them around on the roster next year, yet alone advance them up this year...except that they can't be any worse than what we already throw out there in relief.

     

    There's a half-dozen names of untouchables who SHOULD contribute to the Twins in the next couple of seasons: Meyer, Berrios, Stewart, Peterson, Polanco, Walker. But beyond that, everyone IS a prospect and if we can improve the team with long-range (not just rental) parts, we should.

     

    Except for A.J. Bring him back. Put Suzuki on the waiver wire in August. If someone grabs him, elt him go. Try to find a long-term catcher or bring back A.J.

    Link to comment
    Share on other sites

     

    I highly doubt Reyes is going to bring back 2 really good prospects, I would be shocked if he can get one of those, and am guessing its closer to a top 10 guy instead of a top 5 guy (unless money is involved or another bad contract)

     

    Reyes is a good player still but that contract is brutal, I want him on the Twins, but only if they can ship over Nolasco's contract in return.

     

     

    I'd do that deal in a heartbeat.  Anyone know what Nolasco's timetable of return is?

    Link to comment
    Share on other sites

     

    He's somewhat highly thought of but he's closer to Kohl Stewart than Kyle Gibson.

     

    Unless the prospect is a blue-chipper, a competent cost-controlled guy like Gibson is more valuable (never mind that Gibson has looked more than competent of late).

     

    I agree.  Giving up Gibson and Sano for Tulo would have been a high price to pay in my opinion. 

    Link to comment
    Share on other sites

     

    Is Kiley the be all end all authority on prospect evaluation?

    No but he is higher on him then both MLB.com and BP.Also h

     

    is results this year have been subpar, 6.1 k/9? not good.

    Link to comment
    Share on other sites

    Fair enough. perhaps my perception of him was inflated, I thought he still had the upside of the ace people saw in him before the draft. Adjusting for TJS of course. Evidently that has changed or he has slipped for some reason.

    Link to comment
    Share on other sites

     

    Fair enough. perhaps my perception of him was inflated, I thought he still had the upside of the ace people saw in him before the draft. Adjusting for TJS of course. Evidently that has changed or he has slipped for some reason.

    I mean, he's not a bad piece to have in the system but as the centerpiece for Tulo?

     

    WTF? Seriously, I'm still in shock right now. I can't believe that's what it took to get Tulo from the Rockies.

     

    I can come up with multiple ways the Twins beat that offer without giving up a single piece from the MLB team or Jose Berrios. It's ****ing insane.

     

    Kohl Stewart, Stephen Gonsalves, Oswaldo Arcia. That's a better haul than what they got.

     

    Kohl Stewart, Stephen Gonsalves, Max Kepler. That's a much better haul.

     

    I just can't even.

    Link to comment
    Share on other sites

    My thoughts are that you focus on a quality reliever and possibly a catcher if available at a reasonable price.  That said, if the proposals are outrageous Terry Ryan should stand fast.  I don't think it's worth the premium talent (Sano, Buxton, Berrios, May, Polanco, Rosario, Gonsalves), etc at this stage of the game.  If the Twins do manage to sneak into the playoffs as the wild card they will almost assuredly lose to the other wild card or get swept in that first series. 

     

    I think the time to start shuffling talent for missing pieces will be next summer when some of these guys have a chance to play a bit more and establish value. However, if the right deal does come along NOW I'd be willing to move Meyer, Stewart, Duffey, Rogers, Pinto, Arcia, Santana, Hicks, etc.   And of course Pelfrey and Nolasco are pretty much free if anyone even asks.

     

    The problem I see is that the Twins just haven't properly evaluated some of these prospects yet to make an educated decision.  An example would be the slew of flame throwing relievers on the way up.  Most if not all of them are struggling mightly right now unfortunately.  But that could change dramatically in a few months once these guys start pitching consistently.  I'm also not convinced that Pinto is as bad of a catcher as everyone makes him sound.  Give the kid a shot later this season if you don't bring anyone else in.  Suzuki is just not that good. 

    Link to comment
    Share on other sites

     

    Standing pat is the only unacceptable course of action. I'd rather see the team flip Hunter, Pelfrey, and Milone than stand pat.

    Very unlikely to catch KC whether they stand pat or not.  Not giving up assets for a CHANCE to get to a one game playoff series in not as bad as it seems.

    Link to comment
    Share on other sites

    The Twins have put themselves in a tough situation by (likely) outperforming their true talent level. I am not sure there are really any deals that make us a contender come playoff time, that does not hinder our talent level in the next few years. 

     

    I love how this season has gone and its been a blast to follow, but at no point have I had the feeling that this team could win a playoff series, let alone even a one game wildcard playoff game. We just aren't likely there yet. 

     

    I personally feel that our best bet is to promote our young talent ASAP and hope that they can get experience and confidence by the time the playoffs begin...if we'd be in it. Promote the pitchers with the most dominating stuff, and get their feet wet in low leverage situations. If they fail in limited time..give them more time. Give them a REAL look.

     

    Meyer and Berrios should both be up ASAP in any fashion they want to use them, but get them experience NOW. Like I said, it does not have to be in high leverage situations, so if they falter its not a big deal. But, if they pan out, you keep moving them into more important roles.

     

    Trading for a RP would be fine, but only if it is someone that has a K/9 north of 8 please! And, only if it doesn't cost a future useable piece to the puzzle. 

     

    Adding another mediocre SP just is adding to the same problem we have, and adding a rental legit SP still won't put us in a position to win in the playoffs this year and might hinder our future.

    Link to comment
    Share on other sites

     

    The Twins have put themselves in a tough situation by (likely) outperforming their true talent level. I am not sure there are really any deals that make us a contender come playoff time, that does not hinder our talent level in the next few years. 

     

    I love how this season has gone and its been a blast to follow, but at no point have I had the feeling that this team could win a playoff series, let alone even a one game wildcard playoff game. We just aren't likely there yet. 

     

    I personally feel that our best bet is to promote our young talent ASAP and hope that they can get experience and confidence by the time the playoffs begin...if we'd be in it. Promote the pitchers with the most dominating stuff, and get their feet wet in low leverage situations. If they fail in limited time..give them more time. Give them a REAL look.

     

    Meyer and Berrios should both be up ASAP in any fashion they want to use them, but get them experience NOW. Like I said, it does not have to be in high leverage situations, so if they falter its not a big deal. But, if they pan out, you keep moving them into more important roles.

     

    Trading for a RP would be fine, but only if it is someone that has a K/9 north of 8 please! And, only if it doesn't cost a future useable piece to the puzzle. 

     

    Adding another mediocre SP just is adding to the same problem we have, and adding a rental legit SP still won't put us in a position to win in the playoffs this year and might hinder our future.

     

     

    I think the front office is going to be subtracting starters at the deadline.  Hopefully Pelfrey and or Nolasco.  They need to clear the way for Berrios and May.  Meyer is less than 50/50 if he continues on the trajectory he is on now, so I'm not factoring him in.

    Link to comment
    Share on other sites

     

    No, but this is Hoffman's B-R page.

     

    attachicon.giflol.png

     

    It's not just Kiley.

     

     

    yeah, seriously, of the three Kiley has the highest opinion of him.  

     

    Notice they didn't even show his Baseball America prospect listing on his BR page (still doesn't) .  Because he wasn't top 100 (or certianly not top 50) Berrios was top 50 in BP, MLB and BA.

     

    I agree.  Giving up Gibson and Sano for Tulo would have been a high price to pay in my opinion. 

    He wouldn't have cost that much, certainly not Sano.

    Edited by jimmer
    Link to comment
    Share on other sites

     

    yeah, seriously, of the three Kiley has the highest opinion of him.  

     

    Notice they didn't even show his Baseball America prospect listing on his BR page (still doesn't) .  Because he wasn't top 100 (or certianly not top 50) Berrios was top 50 in BP, MLB and BA.

     

    He wouldn't have cost that much, certainly not Sano.

    Yeah. Sano by himself is worth more than everybody the Rockies got for Tulo.

    Link to comment
    Share on other sites

     

    Yeah, not true.  Berrios is 19th on that list.

     

    http://www.baseballamerica.com/minors/midseason-top-50-prospects2015/

    Yeah that seemed odd, the Berrios national love has been pretty high as of lately.

    This deal will likely turn out to be worse for the Rockies then the Johan one was for the Twins. At least the Twins got a little bit of major league value for Johan.

    Link to comment
    Share on other sites

     

    Yeah that seemed odd, the Berrios national love has been pretty high as of lately.

    This deal will likely turn out to be worse for the Rockies then the Johan one was for the Twins. At least the Twins got a little bit of major league value for Johan.

    The Johan deal wouldn't have been that bad had the Twins done one of two things:

     

    1. Kept Gomez

    2. Kept Hardy for both years of control

     

    Either would have been an underwhelming, but respectable, return for Johan Santana.

     

    I'm not sure the Rockies will be able to match even that kind of return, especially not when they had to take the ass-end of a bad Reyes contract to do it.

    Link to comment
    Share on other sites

    "Stand Pat"ers--"...they wanted:  him, him, the baby Jesus, and the suite revenue...".  It turns out, no they wanted three young prospects and an over-the-hill SS who could be traded for even more salary relief and young prospects.  It's much easier to do nothing than something (which Oh my might go South) and sit back and sing about "prospects [lottery tickets] and the endless "next year(s)"--also more lucrative.  The public (and the players) have so far believed, but if "Stand Pat" is the policy--and things go South--the public will remember that they were sold another empty promise.  Sadly, the players might also remember.

    Link to comment
    Share on other sites

    Remember when Mauer and Morneau were the future, we just had to wait for them, then the Twins would go all in? Remember how they were going to carry them to the championship? The future is less certain than the present. This team skates plays for the future. Good luck.....

    Link to comment
    Share on other sites

     

    Remember when Mauer and Morneau were the future, we just had to wait for them, then the Twins would go all in? Remember how they were going to carry them to the championship? The future is less certain than the present. This team skates plays for the future. Good luck.....

    They did go "all in" in 2010.  Sadly, injuries can strike at any time.  Which is why teams have to take advantage of their "good" seasons whenever they come--even if "unplanned".

    Link to comment
    Share on other sites




    Join the conversation

    You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
    Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

    Guest
    Add a comment...

    ×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

      Only 75 emoji are allowed.

    ×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

    ×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

    ×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

    Loading...

×
×
  • Create New...