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  • Twins Trade Nolasco, Meyer, Cash To Angels For Hector Santiago

    Seth Stohs

    By Seth Stohs

    The Minnesota Twins reached an agreement with the Los Angeles Angels of Anaheim minutes before today’s non-waiver trade deadline. The Twins sent right-handed pitchers Ricky Nolasco and Alex Meyer to the Angels in exchange for left-hander Hector Santiago and minor league right-hander Alan Busenitz.

    Image courtesy of Richard Mackson, USA Today

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    Twins fans have to be impressed that interim GM Rob Antony was able to find a taker for the frustrating Nolasco and the approximately $18-20 million remaining on his four year-$49 million contract. Nolasco threw a strong eight inning in his start over the weekend, maybe giving the Angels reason to think that he has turned a corner, or that they can get him back to his former self.

    Alex Meyer came to the Twins in the Denard Span trade from the Nationals. He was considered a top pitching prospect at the time because of a power fastball. He showed his potential at times, but he also found himself out with shoulder issues a few times. He made two relief appearances last year with the Twins. He also made one start for the team in early May. He hasn’t pitched in a game since due to a shoulder issue.

    Santiago, 28, has played for both the White Sox and the Angels. This season, he is 10-4 with a 4.25 ERA and a 5.03 FIP. He has struck out about 8.0 per nine innings, but has also walked about 4.3 per nine innings. The southpaw has a 3.68 career ERA and one more year left of arbitration. He should immediately take Nolasco’s spot in the rotation.

    Finally, the Twins acquired Alan Busenitz in the deal. He was the Angels 25th-round pick in 2013 out of Kennesaw State. He will turn 26 years old later this month. He began the season with 24 appearances out of the bullpen in AA Arkansas where he posted a 1.93 ERA, a 1.04 WHIP and 8.8 K/9. He recently moved up to AAA Salt Lake and has a 9.00 ERA in 13 innings. He does have 13 strikeouts in the Pacific Coast League. He should report to Rochester.

    Rhett Bollinger is reporting that the Twins will pay Ricky Nolasco for the rest of this season. The Angels will pay Hector Santiago for the rest of this year. The Twins are also sending $4 million to the Angels next year to help them pay Nolasco.

    As the trade deadline has passed, Ervin Santana, Kurt Suzuki and Brandon Kintzler all remain on the Twins roster. They, and others, can still be traded in August, but it would require waiver-clearing, etc.

    Seth Stohs has been blogging about the Minnesota Twins since May 2003. A founder and owner of Twins Daily, Seth has been a Twins fan for 40 years and has a passion for covering the minor leagues and prospects.
    Follow Seth Stohs on Twitter: sethtweets

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    Featured Comments

    h2oface

    h2oface 7,066

  • Verified Member

    • Posted

    Today's debut with the Twins is exactly what the Angels grew tired of: doesn't get past the 5th inning, two gopher balls (I love how Santiago says in his interview that he only made two bad pitches the whole game.....), and a couple walks. Hell, he even let Napoli steal second! A big "so what" trade.

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    Otto von Ballpark

    Otto von Ballpark 20,320

  • Community Leader

    • Posted

    You're still talking about a calculation based on a variety of valuations that are predictive. Yes, it does a better job de-emphasizing those stats, but doesn't eliminate them.

    Um, no? B-Ref WAR is based on actual runs allowed, not FIP components. With park factors, like ERA+.

     

    And they aren't mutually exclusive, you can use both. They both establish that Santiago has been better, but WAR is nice in that it can reward pitching more innings, which is a skill and can have some value, and in general WAR can put the comparison in terms of runs and wins, which is easier to compare. How much money is 10 extra ERA+ points worth? What might be a better investment, +10 ERA+ or +10 OPS+? Like any stat, WAR isn't perfect, and I am sure teams have their own proprietary things that are better, but I think it is clearly a useful tool in the toolbox for these fan discussions.

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    Major League Ready

    Major League Ready 5,943

  • Verified Member

    • Posted

     

    Today's debut with the Twins is exactly what the Angels grew tired of: doesn't get past the 5th inning, two gopher balls (I love how Santiago says in his interview that he only made two bad pitches the whole game.....), and a couple walks. Hell, he even let Napoli steal second! A big "so what" trade.

    What did you expect to get in return for Nolasco?  No kidding, they did not get an Ace.

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    alarp33

    alarp33 2,765

  • Provisional Member

    • Posted

     

    OK.  Educate me.  How is that not what should have been expected in return for Nolasco?  If it's what should have been expected, what are you complaining about?

     

    He called it a "so what" trade, I think it was pretty clear what he meant to everyone else.  Two bad pitchers being traded for each other, "so what", "nothing to see here"

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    Major League Ready

    Major League Ready 5,943

  • Verified Member

    • Posted (edited)

     

    He called it a "so what" trade, I think it was pretty clear what he meant to everyone else.  Two bad pitchers being traded for each other, "so what", "nothing to see here"

    Polish this pig anyway you like.  The 16 pages of discussion suggested it was not nearly so clear as "two bad pitchers being traded. 

     

    Just for the record, I agree completely that it was too bad pitchers being traded and "there was nothing to see here".   This medium has its challenges.  h2oface and I might be thinking exactly the same thing and its the 16 pages of discussion that I am questioning in terms of expectations.

    Edited by Major Leauge Ready
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    Otto von Ballpark

    Otto von Ballpark 20,320

  • Community Leader

    • Posted

     

    Polish this pig anyway you like.  The 16 pages of discussion suggested it was not nearly so clear as "two bad pitchers being traded. 

    The 16 pages of discussion contain a modest debate about the value of the deal to the Twins, including the "so what" post you responded to.  I don't think anyone in this debate so far deserves to be mocked for "expecting an ace" in return for Nolasco.

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    Major League Ready

    Major League Ready 5,943

  • Verified Member

    • Posted

     

    The 16 pages of discussion contain a modest debate about the value of the deal to the Twins, including the "so what" post you responded to.  I don't think anyone in this debate so far deserves to be mocked for "expecting an ace" in return for Nolasco.

    As I said, I am inclined to believe that I am in full agreement with h2oface.  We will just have to agree to disagree on the nature of this debate.  After 16 pages of discussion, there are two potential conclusions, IMO.  There is either more to it than two bad SPs being swapped or there is the usual complaining going on that once again the Twins did not get a good player in return for a bad one.

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    h2oface

    h2oface 7,066

  • Verified Member

    • Posted

    Some were suggesting this is a big win trade for the Twins. I offered, way back at the beginning of the comments, that the Angels were just as tired of Santiago as the Twins were of Nolasco, and called it a "big so what" trade. The rest is projection. No complaint. But no admiration for the move, either. Ambivalent. Good luck to Alex Meyer.

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    Otto von Ballpark

    Otto von Ballpark 20,320

  • Community Leader

    • Posted

     

    or there is the usual complaining going on that once again the Twins did not get a good player in return for a bad one.

    I am pretty sure no one has made such a complaint.  Some folks said it was a big win because Santiago is better than Nolasco.  Others questioned whether the difference between them is all that great, particularly in the context of the Twins current needs.  If that is how you interpret such a debate, I am not sure what to tell you.

     

    I'll grant you this -- at least you didn't chime in to say how all of our opinions are wrong as judged by your experience in real-world business and management situations! :)

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    h2oface

    h2oface 7,066

  • Verified Member

    • Posted

    Hell, I am on record as not liking another mediocre innings eater pitcher that consistently performed worse than his FIPs when he was signed! I love that he can now pitch batting practice for some other unfortunate team. It is amazing how similar Santiago looks physically to Nolasco. It will be like he never left but watching in a mirror. At least Santiago doesn't make us watch him grab his balls nearly as much as the record setting Nolasco!

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    Mr. Brooks

    Mr. Brooks 7,174

  • Provisional Member

    • Posted

    I realize it's only 2 starts, and I'm not making any statements at this point, but does anyone have a different opinion now that they've seen him pitch?

     

     

    Ok, maybe a little statement. He looks like a lefthanded Nolasco to me.

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    laloesch

    laloesch 1,383

  • Verified Member

    • Posted (edited)

     

    Nope. I still think he is not tendered in the off-season, and they save millions, and free a roster spot.

    Now that Alex Meyer is out of the picture it's going to be another season before Gonsalves or Stewart get close to reaching the majors and we still have no idea when or if Hughes comes back.  That leaves us with May, Jay and Mejia (late next season at the earliest).  Will the Twins go out and sign another big name free agent once Mauer is off the books?

    Edited by laloesch
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    alarp33

    alarp33 2,765

  • Provisional Member

    • Posted

     

    Nope. I still think he is not tendered in the off-season, and they save millions, and free a roster spot.

     

    Well I don't think that's why the trade was made ( I don't think the current regime would non-tender), I do agree there's a decent chance the new GM will non-tender him

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    alarp33

    alarp33 2,765

  • Provisional Member

    • Posted

     

    I realize it's only 2 starts, and I'm not making any statements at this point, but does anyone have a different opinion now that they've seen him pitch?


    Ok, maybe a little statement. He looks like a lefthanded Nolasco to me.

     

    The rush to anoint him as a much better pitcher than Nolasco, and to completely dismiss Alex Meyer could look pretty silly in a couple of years.  

     

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    Mike Sixel

    Mike Sixel 41,021

  • Old-Timey Member

    • Posted

    I am not dismissing Meyer....but he is not exactly likely to be good at this point either. The rush not to realize both pitchers are bad, but one can by cut and millions can be saved....That rush seems odd.

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    alarp33

    alarp33 2,765

  • Provisional Member

    • Posted (edited)

     

    I am not dismissing Meyer....but he is not exactly likely to be good at this point either. The rush not to realize both pitchers are bad, but one can by cut and millions can be saved....That rush seems odd.

     

    I'm not saying you dismissed Meyer, many did though.  And while I think its very unlikely he becomes a good starting pitcher, I don't think its unlikely at all he becomes a back-end bullpen guy.  

     

    I realize one can be cut - but I'm not going to give credit to a trade where a potentially useful, even high end bullpen guy, was sold for $8 million.  

    Edited by alarp33
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    Mike Sixel

    Mike Sixel 41,021

  • Old-Timey Member

    • Posted

    I'm not saying you dismissed Meyer, many did though. And while I think its very unlikely he becomes a good starting pitcher, I don't think its unlikely at all he becomes a back-end bullpen guy.

     

    I realize one can be cut - but I'm not going to give credit to a trade where a potentially useful, even high end bullpen guy, was sold for $8 million.

    What price would Meyer be worth at this point?

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    alarp33

    alarp33 2,765

  • Provisional Member

    • Posted (edited)

     

    What price would Meyer be worth at this point?

     

    I don't know.  But 6 years of control is pretty valuable, especially for a team that won't give multi-year contracts to relievers, therefore can't join free agency.  And has a bullpen currently comprised of potentially their 3rd best starter (because they "NEEDED him" in the bullpen), Tommy Milone, and Buddy Boshers

     

    Does it make you feel better that the Pohlad's could potentially have that money though?

    Edited by alarp33
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    Mike Sixel

    Mike Sixel 41,021

  • Old-Timey Member

    • Posted

    I don't know. But 6 years of control is pretty valuable, especially for a team that won't give multi-year contracts to relievers, therefore can't join free agency. And has a bullpen currently comprised of potentially their 3rd best starter (because they "NEEDED him" in the bullpen), Tommy Milone, and Buddy Boshers

     

    Does it make you feel better that the Pohlad's could potentially have that money though?

    If Meyer pitchers six years in the majors, I will be shocked. I don't care about the money, but Antony and Pohlad should.

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    alarp33

    alarp33 2,765

  • Provisional Member

    • Posted

     

    If Meyer pitchers six years in the majors, I will be shocked. I don't care about the money, but Antony and Pohlad should.

     

    Our criteria might just be different - I don't consider the trade a success if Santiago is non-tendered (which I highly highly doubt was the plan when the deal was made) and $8 million is saved.  

     

    You likely could've saved $4 million by picking up the rest of the contract and giving Nolasco away, and not had to sell extremely low on Meyer.  

     

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    laloesch

    laloesch 1,383

  • Verified Member

    • Posted

     

    The rush to anoint him as a much better pitcher than Nolasco, and to completely dismiss Alex Meyer could look pretty silly in a couple of years.  

     

    I read somewhere that Santiago stated something to the effect that the Twins already had him make some adjustments and I was thinking already?

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    h2oface

    h2oface 7,066

  • Verified Member

    • Posted

    Crunch all the stats you like. I would like to amend my evaluation of the trade from "a big so what" to "a massive so what". Hindsight rules! This Santiago is the pitcher the Angels would take Nolasco for.

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    TheLeviathan

    TheLeviathan 17,473

  • Old-Timey Member

    • Posted

    Santiago has certainly been bad so far, that doesn't necessarily change things.  

     

    6 years of Alex Meyer matters about as much as me offering my services to the team for six years.  Hell, to this point, by not even being on the team I might have helped more than Meyer has to this point.

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    nicksaviking

    nicksaviking 26,755

  • Community Moderator

    • Posted

    I don't know. But 6 years of control is pretty valuable, especially for a team that won't give multi-year contracts to relievers, therefore can't join free agency.

    Good thing they traded for a reliever with six years of control then I guess.

     

    Busenitz also has more options left than Meyer. Even without the Nolasco/Santiago components, it's still a push at worst under these standards.

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