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  • Twins, Rockies Talk Tulowitzki


    Jeremy Nygaard

    First and foremost, there are literally hundreds of thousands of trade conversations that happen between teams throughout the season and especially as the end of July rolls around. If the Twins weren’t talking to every team about ways to improve their team, that would be extremely disappointing.

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    Jim Bowden posted a piece called Anatomy of a Trade (Insider required) yesterday at ESPN and - to everyone’s surprise - it was fantastic. It discusses how trades come together and he goes through a hypothetical trade that takes place… and how it progresses over the course of nearly 40 days.

    This hypothetical trade ends with both teams coming to an agreement at the deadline. But you must keep in mind that for every one that goes through, there are probably hundreds that never grow legs and die.

    One conversation that I can confirm has happened - and continues to happen - is between the Twins and the Colorado Rockies. It’s still in the infant stages. In fact, the idea sprouted after an All-Star break where the Twins All-Star second baseman, Brian Dozier, and the Rockies All-Star shortstop, Troy Tulowitzki, “bonded.”

    As Bowden suggests in his piece, the first call is made and the initial offer is “usually lopsided and downright embarrassing.” I don’t know who made the first offer, but the Rockies’ top target is Kyle Gibson. They’ve also asked for Miguel Sano. The Twins target? Troy Tulowitzki.

    Where do negotiations go from here? If the Rockies insist on a top arm, there are really only a couple of options. Besides Gibson, you’d have to imagine that Jose Berrios will be brought up. And possibly Trevor May and/or Alex Meyer to a lesser extent. But as far the “headliner” goes, only Gibson and Berrios could really fit in that category.

    With ten days to go, this discussion could really morph in a lot of different directions. In the right deal, the Rockies would be willing to send some cash. (Seth covered Tulowitzki’s contract really well in this piece posted early today, so I don’t feel the need to re-hash it.) In any deal where money is sent, the Rockies would ask for a better return.

    Would the Twins have interest in acquiring other pieces from the Rockies? Both LaTroy Hawkins and John Axford could be valuable additions to the Twins bullpen. The Twins have also asked about Rockies catcher Nick Hundley, who is under contract through next season and having his best offensive season since 2011.

    If you’re wondering how the Rockies could deal the face of their franchise, it seems like they might be ready to move on from the duo of Tulowitzki and Carlos Gonzalez, with star 3B Nolan Arenado and All-Star 2B D.J. LaMahieu taking over. Moving Tulo, CarGo and potentially Charlie Blackmon could add a lot of valuable pieces to a franchise who has struggled almost as badly as the Twins have over the past five seasons.

    None of that means that a deal is going to happen. Not with the Twins or with anyone else. All things have to line up perfectly for a deal to get done.

    As one source familiar with the talks told me, if the Twins make it through their gauntlet-of-a-week this week, “talks will get serious and move fast.”

    Whether you like Tulowitzki or not, the Twins are having conversations with the intent of getting better this year.

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    For the chance to take easily the most glaring, gaping, monumental, catastrophic holes in the lineup (SS) with a player the caliber of Tulo?

     

    There aren't a lot of scenarios where I would NOT consider that if I were the Twins.

     

    Like Mike said, they've got 50 wins in the bank already;  a player like Tulo completely reshuffles the entire lineup, fills a MASSIVE, MASSIVE hole in the lineup and in the field.

     

    And I'm a major Gibson fan.  

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    I see absolutely nothing special about Gibson at all.  He turns 28 this year, not 22 or 23. He is what he is at this point and it's nothing special at all.  If HE is going to be the centerpiece of this rotation for year to come, we are boned.

    Which team is better, Gibson and Danny Santana or May and Tulo? This year and for the next 4 years, I would go with option 2.

     

    How would we rate the long term projectablity of May, Berrios, and Gibson? I would rank them in this order:

    Berrios-Long term top of the rotation starter (Probably a no. 2)

    May-Long term middle of the rotation, younger than Gibson, Higher K rate

    Gibson-Long term middle of the rotation older than May, lesser K rate

     

    They asked for Gibson, why further hurt our future by upping their request with Berrios? I DONT get that. This is a sell high on Gibson. Lets sell high for once.

     

    I dont know why so many on this site freak out on the sell high proposals one year then complain the next few years that we didn;t sell high when we had the chance (see Pelfrey discussion one month ago...)

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    Which team is better, Gibson and Danny Santana or May and Tulo? This year and for the next 4 years, I would go with option 2.

     

    How would we rate the long term projectablity of May, Berrios, and Gibson? I would rank them in this order:

    Berrios-Long term top of the rotation starter (Probably a no. 2)

    May-Long term middle of the rotation, younger than Gibson, Higher K rate

    Gibson-Long term middle of the rotation older than May, lesser K rate

     

    They asked for Gibson, why further hurt our future by upping their request with Berrios? I DONT get that. This is a sell high on Gibson. Lets sell high for once.

     

    I dont know why so many on this site freak out on the sell high proposals one year then complain the next few years that we didn;t sell high when we had the chance (see Pelfrey discussion one month ago...)

    Agree. While Gibson shows some

    promise, he has low K rates and moving from Gibson to Tulo would be a massive upgrade. Plus, as goulik points out, we have May as a replacement (with Berrios, and hopefully Meyer, behind).

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    No way I would move Gibson. Of late, he has been striking out guys, and of late he's pitching like a 2.  I get that he's not young, but he's definitely a cornerstone piece under team control through the remaining of his good seasons.  You could replace him with May (who I like a lot, and probably more than most people here), but I don't think he's really on the block.  It certainly won't help this year.  Given Colorado's position, I have a tough time believing they would want Gibson.  He's getting expensive by the time they are competing again. 

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    So because some people aren't enamored with Gibson, we should move him to get Tulowitski? An older player who has had trouble staying on the field?

     

    This is somehow supposed to get us closer to....what exactly? Another year of Mike Pelfrey? I fail to see how that makes even an ounce of sense for accomplishing something this year or in the likely window with Tulowitski.

    Yeah, exactly. I thought the point of acquiring Tulo was immediate gratification and wins. If you trade your only above average starter in the process, I struggle to see where the additional wins are found.

     

    Kyle Gibson is a 27 year old 3 WAR player making peanuts.

     

    Troy Tulowitzki is a 30 year old 1.6 WAR player making $20m.

     

    Yet people want to trade those two players? WTF.

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    You're not going to ever be able to sign a similar player for 5/94 with a 6th year option.  That's Ramirez/Sandoval money from this past winter.

     

    That's why I am not opposed to spending even more for the right player, but I don't think many big time shortstops are set to hit the market either.

     

    Ramirez's career OPS is .869.  Tulo's road OPS is .819.

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    When we start talking about Tulo being an older player, does it matter that Tulo is only three years older than Gibson? And that he's actually a proven top notch player for a decade as opposed to a pitcher who hasn't shown himself to be anything more than average at best?

    What is relevant is we are trading for a short stop that is almost 31.  He would likely be our DH in a year or two.  So now we have a DH making $20M who will be in the .800 range for OPS.  The value has plummetted quite a bit.

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    Yeah, exactly. I thought the point of acquiring Tulo was immediate gratification and wins. If you trade your only above average starter in the process, I struggle to see where the additional wins are found.

    Kyle Gibson is a 27 year old 3 WAR player making peanuts.

    Troy Tulowitzki is a 30 year old 1.6 WAR player making $20m.

    Yet people want to trade those two players? WTF.

    First...Tulo replaces Danny Santana/Eduardo Escobar, May replaces Gibson. You don't think that's better than current team?

     

    Second...We both know using WAR is problematic at best, but Gibson is a 3 WAR player, and Tulowitski is a 1.6 WAR player? C'mon Brock.

     

    Third...instant gratification? Tulo is not a rental.

     

    Concur with WTF, though. ;)

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    Dave, he is not a 5 WAR player. Can we please stop acting like these numbers will translate away from Coors?  In almost exactly half his games this year he has a WAR of 2.2, with the following home and road splits:

     

    .883 OPS at home and .827 OPS on the road.  It is safe to say if you doubled his road WAR up to this point his total WAR would be in the 3’s.

     

    For his career he has averaged 4.5 WAR per season if you take out his 25 game rookie season, from ages 22-30. Now his WAR on a 162 game basis is higher but shouldn’t we consider all the time he missed?  He is more likely to miss at least as much time in his 30’s.   Here are his career home and road splits:

     

    Home:  .323/.395/.956

    Road:  .277/.349/.819

     

    I can’t find home and road WAR, but it is safe to say that the home numbers are well over half the annual 4.5.  So we can safely assume that through his prime he has had a WAR in the 3 range per season.

    I am not even remotely interested in taking on 5/100 for a guy that is almost 31 and will start with a 3 WAR and decline from there.  Let alone give up 7 years of control of our best pitching prospect in the process.  If we have an extra $100M laying around we can find something comparable on the FA market next year or from another team trying to get out from under a bad contract.

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    Yeah, exactly. I thought the point of acquiring Tulo was immediate gratification and wins. If you trade your only above average starter in the process, I struggle to see where the additional wins are found.

     

    Kyle Gibson is a 27 year old 3 WAR player making peanuts.

     

    Troy Tulowitzki is a 30 year old 1.6 WAR player making $20m.

     

    Yet people want to trade those two players? WTF.

    So, to be absolutely clear here, you think Kyle Gibson is (currently and moving forward) a more valuable player than Troy Tulowitzki, and that you think it isn't even close?

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    First...Tulo replaces Danny Santana/Eduardo Escobar, May replaces Gibson. You don't think that's better than current team?

    Second...We both know using WAR is problematic at best, but Gibson is a 3 WAR player, and Tulowitski is a 1.6 WAR player? C'mon Brock.

    Third...instant gratification? Tulo is not a rental.

    Concur with WTF, though. ;)

    It's not a direct comparison, WAR was used to point out just how terrible an idea that is because Kyle Gibson has been really, really good and continues to improve as the season progresses.

     

    Is Kyle Gibson more valuable than Tulowitzki in 2015? I'm far from certain that's the case. Is Kyle Gibson at $500k more valuable than Tulowitski at $20m?

     

    Hell yes. That's not even in doubt.

     

    To give up a good cost-controlled player who is contributing today for an older expensive player who may or may not contribute more wins to the team is the kind of deal that gets general managers fired, and for good reason. It's idiotic.

     

    And then you get into the fact that Tulowitzki has a pretty extensive injury history and has crossed the age of 30. There isn't a situation where you can paint that trade idea in a positive light.

     

    Tulo is a "win now" move. It's damned near impossible to "win now" when you give up a younger, possibly equal value, player in trade for that older, expensive player. Gibson could actually get better from 2016-2018. It's unlikely but it's possible and it costs the Twins very little to find out. On the other hand, you can pretty much bank on Tulowitzki diminishing in some capacity from 2016-2018. It has already started to happen. His fielding metrics are no longer impressive and haven't been for several years.

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    So, to be absolutely clear here, you think Kyle Gibson is (currently and moving forward) a more valuable player than Troy Tulowitzki, and that you think it isn't even close?

    I think the two players have a pretty good shot of being of nearly equal value from 2015-2018. Either way, I expect it to be relatively close.

     

    Except one of them costs $15m and the other costs $100m.

     

    Whether the posters here want to buy into reality or not, money matters. The Twins aren't going to post a $200m payroll in 2017. Acquiring Tulo, while not a terrible idea under the right circumstances, will seriously hamstring Ryan in acquiring future players. That counts for something.

     

    If one wants to build a winning team, one has to acquire better players, not acquire better players while giving up better players.

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    I would certainly agree it'd be better to keep Gibson and still acquire Tulo.

     

    But IMO that wouldn't be a deal breaker.

     

    And I might be in the minority, but Im not the least bit interested in winning the "WAR per dollar spent" championship. Or the "wins per payroll dollar" championship.

     

    I want the actual one. I don't see the Twins getting one by hoarding cheap players. I want good players. Tulo is still one of those, and the whole "decline phase" meme has gotten completely out of hand. He's 30. Good baseball players have usually stayed good into their mid 30s since the 1800s, and will continue to do so.

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    I think the two players have a pretty good shot of being of nearly equal value from 2015-2018. Either way, I expect it to be relatively close.

     

    Preposterous statement of the year nomination.

    Tulo is a hall of fame SS, Gibson is a guy who is probably a #3 starter on a good team and a poor mans Brad Radke at best.

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    Dave, he is not a 5 WAR player. Can we please stop acting like these numbers will translate away from Coors? In almost exactly half his games this year he has a WAR of 2.2, with the following home and road splits:

     

    .883 OPS at home and .827 OPS on the road. It is safe to say if you doubled his road WAR up to this point his total WAR would be in the 3’s.

     

    For his career he has averaged 4.5 WAR per season if you take out his 25 game rookie season, from ages 22-30. Now his WAR on a 162 game basis is higher but shouldn’t we consider all the time he missed? He is more likely to miss at least as much time in his 30’s. Here are his career home and road splits:

     

    Home: .323/.395/.956

    Road: .277/.349/.819

     

    I can’t find home and road WAR, but it is safe to say that the home numbers are well over half the annual 4.5. So we can safely assume that through his prime he has had a WAR in the 3 range per season.

    I am not even remotely interested in taking on 5/100 for a guy that is almost 31 and will start with a 3 WAR and decline from there. Let alone give up 7 years of control of our best pitching prospect in the process. If we have an extra $100M laying around we can find something comparable on the FA market next year or from another team trying to get out from under a bad contract.

    Forgive my ignorance...isn't WAR advertised as context, league, and park neutral?

     

    Perhaps that explains not finding home/road WAR splits.

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    So, to be absolutely clear here, you think Kyle Gibson is (currently and moving forward) a more valuable player than Troy Tulowitzki, and that you think it isn't even close?

    Yes. I wouldn't trade Gibson for him. Trading Gibson is just plain stupid. He is in his prime, cost controlled, doesn't have an elite track record. Would the Giants trade Bumgarner on their way to the postseason? Plus, the Rockies wont even be good until after Gibson is past his prime. Just doesn't make sense.

     

    What would make sense is someone like Berrios. However, if the Twins would trade their best pitching prospect they would need Hundley included..... which would require them to add more players into the deal. If Tulo was 2 years younger it would make this an easier conversation. At this point, he is going to start declining and the 2 sides wont match up.

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    I would certainly agree it'd be better to keep Gibson and still acquire Tulo.

     

    But IMO that wouldn't be a deal breaker.

     

    And I might be in the minority, but Im not the least bit interested in winning the "WAR per dollar spent" championship. Or the "wins per payroll dollar" championship.

     

    I want the actual one. I don't see the Twins getting one by hoarding cheap players. I want good players. Tulo is still one of those, and the whole "decline phase" meme has gotten completely out of hand. He's 30. Good baseball players have usually stayed good into their mid 30s since the 1800s, and will continue to do so.

    There's almost a zero chance the Twins win in the playoffs without Gibson. That should be enough of an argument for anyone.

     

    He is their only above average pitcher. Couple that with the Twins' shoddy pen and you can write "one and done" in pen.

     

    Tulo will likely remain a good player for a few more years but he's not the player he was five years ago. He faces injury issues on almost a yearly basis.

     

    If you're trying to win now by acquiring Tulo, giving up Gibson is in direct opposition to that goal. Teams improve by giving up future talent, not today's talent.

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    I think the two players have a pretty good shot of being of nearly equal value from 2015-2018. Either way, I expect it to be relatively close.

     

    Except one of them costs $15m and the other costs $100m.

     

    Whether the posters here want to buy into reality or not, money matters. The Twins aren't going to post a $200m payroll in 2017. Acquiring Tulo, while not a terrible idea under the right circumstances, will seriously hamstring Ryan in acquiring future players. That counts for something.

     

    If one wants to build a winning team, one has to acquire better players, not acquire better players while giving up better players.

    Where else are they going to spend the money?  Sign another aging middle of the rotation pitcher in the offseason?  Wait 2 offseasons outbid everyone for Lucroy (a 30ish yr old catcher)?  Money saved on payroll is only useful if it is spent on something good.  I can't think of many better places to spend the money.

     

    Everything about Gibson says sell high right now.  If he is the centerpiece for a deal that brings in an MVP caliber bat to fill the Twins 2nd worst positional need then I make the deal quickly.  The only tough part is that losing him and Santana (in the playoffs) sets up a mediocre rotation.

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    Forgive my ignorance...isn't WAR advertised as context, league, and park neutral?

    Perhaps that explains not finding home/road WAR splits.

     

    It appears you are correct. 

     

    http://www.fangraphs.com/library/war/limitations-war/

     

    So Tulo has been a 4.4 WAR player from ages 22-30.  Safe to say we are still not getting a 5 WAR player from 31-35/36.  Not as drastic though.

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    Where else are they going to spend the money?  Sign another aging middle of the rotation pitcher in the offseason?  Wait 2 offseasons outbid everyone for Lucroy (a 30ish yr old catcher)?  Money saved on payroll is only useful if it is spent on something good.  I can't think of many better places to spend the money.

     

    Everything about Gibson says sell high right now.  If he is the centerpiece for a deal that brings in an MVP caliber bat to fill the Twins 2nd worst positional need then I make the deal quickly.  The only tough part is that losing him and Santana (in the playoffs) sets up a mediocre rotation.

    Concur.

     

    Except about Gibson...I'd rather give up Berrios. But I wouldn't let that be a deal breaker if the Rockies insisted on Gibson.

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    Wow, I'm really surprised by how many here seem to prefer Gibson to a true Star SS like Tulowitzki. Gibson is the very definition of a mediocre SP. His career K/9 is less than 6, BB/K is under 2. These aren't the numbers of a guy you can't deal. He's been better this year, unless you look at his FIP, and then see it's actually higher than last year. Teams win by having better players than their opponents. A guy like Tulowitzki gives the Twins a better SS for the next 4 years, then most teams they face. Keeping Gibson does not necessarily do that that for the Pitchers. 

     

    Until you see/hear what the total package to land Tulo is, it's hard to really judge, but I for one can't comprehend how a guy like Gibson is going to be the line in the sand for a player of Tulowitzki's pedigree. 

     

     

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    Preposterous statement of the year nomination.

    Tulo is a hall of fame SS, Gibson is a guy who is probably a #3 starter on a good team and a poor mans Brad Radke at best.

    Hall of fame? Jumping the gun a little on that. Radke had 4 seasons over 5 WAR, an ERA+ under 100 once in 12 season, pitched less than 180 innings twice. He was a pretty good pitcher for his entire career. He was also drafted out of high school and pitched 180 innings when was 22. 

     

    That said, Gibson is having a better year than Radke ever did. He strikes out as many or more and has an elite GB rate. Sure, he could regress, but why would he? He's been doing this since he was drafted. Had he not had TJ he would be in his 4th full season with the Twins. 

     

    We can make a bet on who has more value the rest of their career, Gibson vs. Tulo....

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    This whole argument comes down to if you think this year is going to be the best chance for the Twins to make the playoffs/win a championship in the next 4-5 years. I don't, so I don't want to make a trade like this.

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