Twins 6, Royals 3: Twins Lose No-Hitter in Ninth Inning

4 hours ago, saviking said:

I was so made Rocco didn't let Ryan at least go out there in the 8th inning that I turned off the game and didn't give a **** whether we won or lost ...

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Last night's game from start to finish, was the most fun I've had watching the Twins in a long time.

Interesting that these sentiments were posted back to back. I tend to agree with the latter. If I didn't enjoy watching the team win I think I'd shut it off for good. That's what I've done with pretty much every other sport besides baseball.

36 minutes ago, bean5302 said:

Every no hitter thrown in the past 6 seasons...

Ried Detmers - 5/10/22 = 108 pitches
Tyler Gilbert - 8/14/21 = 102 pitches 
Corey Kluber - 5/19/21 = 101 pitches 
Spencer Turnbull - 5/18/21 = 117 pitches (UCL tear diagnosed 3 games later)
Wade Miley - 5/7/21 = 114 pitches 
John Means - 5/5/21 = 113 pitches
Carlos Rodon - 4/14/21 = 114 pitches
Joe Musgrove - 4/9/21 = 112 pitches
Alec Mills - 9/13/20 = 114 pitches
Lucas Giolito - 8/25/20 = 101 pitches
Justin Verlander - 9/1/19 = 120 pitches (UCL tear diagnosed 6 starts later)
Mike Fiers - 5/7/19 = 131 pitches 
James Paxton - 5/8/18 = 99 pitches 
Sean Manea - 4/21/18 = 108 pitches
Edison Volquez - 6/3/17 = 98 pitches

2 of the 3 pitchers who were allowed to go more than 114 pitches ended their seasons with UCL surgery a few starts thereafter. Joe Ryan throwing fewer than 120 pitches was extremely unlikely and he was on pace for the most pitches thrown in a no hitter in recent history. Ryan possibly could have finished the game at fewer pitches than Mike Fiers, but that's it. Even in a perfect scenario (1 pitch, 1 out), Ryan would be throwing more pitches than 50% of no hitters. 

The arguments that "well back in the day!" harken to a different era where pitchers weren't throwing with as much effort as they do today and they weren't throwing so many sliders which seem to be more dangerous to UCLs. UCL injuries are common now when they were once rare. It's actually shocking how many of the pitchers on the list above eventually lost a season to UCL surgery eventually. Add a half dozen of those names to the list beyond what I noted.

As is said on TD, THIS! The max effort and slider usage were very different from how Ole Bert Blyleven pitched. It's like comparing a sprinter to a distance runner.

I had fun watching until the 8th inning. Then it stopped being fun. There are enough 'what-ifs' to fill an encyclopedia (I know, maybe some here don't know what one of those is!)

I get that the game has changed. And you all have the volumes of stats to prove it. I also know there are still a few things about the game that fans of the game (not of analytics and charts and graphs) will always enjoy. And one thing is watching something rare and fun and exciting. I don't think Rocco did the right thing and thats a hill I'll die on. I don't think any manager should deprive fans or pitcher of something historic...unless pitcher says he wants out. This is a game. Fans pay to watch. Give the kid a shot at baseball immortality. The game he pitches Sunday might have the Twins out of first by 7 games.

I just don't like it at all. My opinion. Doesn't have to be yours.

1 hour ago, KnoblauchWasFramed said:

Well, I wonder if the fact that you named two players on the same team, with the same manager, and the same strength and conditioning coaches is just a crazy and weird coincidence?  For each one of those guys there are literally hundreds and hundreds of pitchers that invalidate your argument.   

I don't think it's a coincidence at all. I think Dusty Baker wrecked both of those pitcher's arms by over-using them, which was basically my point.

Teams have become more risk-adverse with their starting pitchers, and that's what drives this. It's easy for us to post on a website about how they should be given a longer leash and how it's not proven that this will cause them to break down, but for the teams, they're dealing with multi-million dollar assets, and losing them can result in huge losses for the franchise. Everyone wants 22 year-old Mark Prior, but no one wants to be the one that turns him into 25 year-old Mark Prior.

bean5302's point about max effort and sliders is an insightful one but probably challenging to evaluate. (I suspect team analytic departments are trying to figure out if there's a way to quantify what's gained and lost) Could pitchers throw more if they were throwing at lower effort? Is the trade-off of extra-innings worth reducing spin rates and velocity? very hard questions, because as much as pitchers have improved in terms of velocity, etc (and it's important to remember that 20 years ago mid-90's heat was considered significant if not elite, and very very few threw 100 mph gas) hitters have also improved.

pitchers would likely improve their ability to get through the 3rd time of an order if the hitters had no access to technology to see their earlier AB's in real-time. but the league and the fans also want to see more offense, not less.

No one ever says "I want to be an armchair GM when I grow up."

1 hour ago, USAFChief said:

You think Blyleven wasn't throwing as hard as he could, and snapping off curve balls?

Yeah I don't think he was, I think he was pacing himself as they all were. That is exactly why so many want to see complete games etc, it is what was most valued then so they value it still. I come to this opinion from what I see pitchers doing and the amount of injuries today. Do you think people were tougher in past times?

5 hours ago, USAFChief said:

You forgot a few.

Bert Blyleven was so abused, coming up at age 19 and tossing over 1900 innings in his first six and a half seasons, that he only lasted until age 39. 

How many more before you stop doing this?

 

I think there are probably way more guys who have blown their arms out than pitched as many innings for as long as Bert did. 

35 minutes ago, prouster said:

I think there are probably way more guys who have blown their arms out than pitched as many innings for as long as Bert did. 

How many of Twins past pitchers quit because they blew their arm out, there were dozens of pitchers so name some.

13 hours ago, Mark G said:

I did consider the other viewpoint; I simply don't agree with it.  And that is not the final word, either.  I don't even get the final word at home.    

I'm sorry if it doesn't always come across the way I intended it to.  I do feel pretty strongly about the dogged belief most managers and/or front offices have about babying pitchers.  I happen to believe that it plays a role, maybe a big role, in the increase in injuries I have seen in my lifetime.  No one is stretched out to the most of their ability anymore, and even when someone shows the ability to be a workhorse they pull in the reins.  They play it so safe that the pitchers are never really safe.  They believe more in their bullpens than they do in the starters they have developed over the course of many years.  And I am on my soap box again, so I better get off before I get told to stay on topic.    

Topic:  Ryan gets pulled with 6 outs to go in a no hitter because of a dogged belief in pitch counts.  This extremely humble observer believes he should have been allowed to at least try.  And that, and 8 bucks will get me a cup of coffee at Caribou.    

I find it illogical that a team supposedly so keen on data pays strict attention to pitch count even though there is absolutely no research, no data, that has found a link between the number of pitches thrown and arm injuries. In fact, what little research that has been done on the issue reached the opposite conclusion; there is no cause and effect relationship between the number of pitches thrown and arm injuries. 

So stop counting Rocco and go with the flow.