Twins 3, Angels 5: Angels Comeback, Win on Walk-off

Yikes...never thought I would say this but it may be time to trade Buxton.   He was signed and being paid to be a more than DH and very part-time outfielder.  He needs more "rest" days than this team can afford  His value is a combination of all his skills.  With his salary gone, they could get close to a #1 starter.

I love him and wish it would have worked out better. Perhaps a team with a better training staff or tougher coach can get him back to what he should be.

3 hours ago, AlwaysinModeration said:

Was it ill-advised for Gordon to dive for that ball?  If he fields it on a hop, the tying run holds at third.

They had a very fast runner on first taking off with two outs. The ball is slicing to the corner. There is no way that runner holds at third. There may be a chance at the plate but the best chance to win that game In 9 was to catch that ball.

We might argue with the defensive positioning. Sierra had just missed a double down the left field line on the previous pitch. He was not catching up to the fastball. Gordon should have been moved closer to the line. 

Just a few random thoughts.

Did anyone else notice that Otani did not touch second base when he scrambled back to 1B after Buxton's diving catch?  Unless the rules have changed since I was an umpire, a runner must retouch any base he passed when retreating.  Is that still the rule?

Bundy looked very good through five innings.  I thought he would definitely return for the sixth.

Thielbar looked unhittable.  I don't understand why he was taken out in the middle of the inning.

Twice in the late innings, Kepler came to the plate with a runner on and the shift used.  The first time, the first pitch to him was belt high on the outside half of the plate and he let it go by.  That was a perfect time to hit one to the left side.  In both at bats, he grounded out to 2B who was playing 60 feet into the outfield.

So many opportunities to advance the ghost runner and not a single attempt at a bunt.  That is sad.

I have been a supporter of Baldelli all year.  But as a Twins fan from 1500 miles away, I haven't had too many chances to watch games.  MLB Network has shown both the Dodger games and all the Angel games this week and now I have a better understanding of the complaints.  I was talking to the TV quite often this week, questioning what the heck was he doing????  

Other than watching Arraez and Miranda, watching the Twins hit is painful.  Correa had a good game yesterday, but the rest of this week he looked inept at the plate.  Still fun to watch throwing the ball, but I'm not sure that's worth $35M a year.

These west coast games take a toll on an old man in Maine so I'm going to sign off now and take a nap.

3 hours ago, USAFChief said:

Brutal.

Lopez had Stassi 0-2 and walks him in the 9th.

 If Gordon takes the proper angle, doesn't dive, and cuts that triple off, it's a double and Stassi doesn't score the tying run from 1st.

And as MarkG points out, for the love of everything holy DRIVE IN SOME RUNS. 

Bah-ruu-tull.

I agree that Stassi does not score from first. He was on the bench. Velazquez probably does. That guy can run.

This is what happens when you have a use all the ammo strategy; the Twins used all three of their best relievers Friday, some of them while up by 3 or 4 runs, and predictably, saw those relievers perform worse when asked to go back-to-back.  Rocco has to figure out a way to keep more options available on a day-to-day basis, and Falvine has to figure out a way to get more quality options, or more multi-inning options.

The high point of the game for me was, 1) Arraez, 3 for 3 with a walk when I went to bed after 9; and 2) Bundy pitching great.  Why he didn't get another inning, I don't understand?  Maybe they wanted him to have a good experience and got him out before he wouldn't?

I don't understand pinch hitting for certain players whenever the pitcher changes, ie, Becham for Celestino, then whoever for Becham with Gordon coming into left field.  Had they just left Celestino in the game, he is a more experienced outfielder and may have played the 9th inning ball differently.  Doubt he would have caught it, but anything other than getting to the wall and the Twins may have won in 9.

Beginning to wonder whether any of these relief pitchers can go two nights straight.  Lopez wasn't all that sharp.  Who is left for today?  Is Sands still on the roster?  If he is, he may have to pitch 4+ innings.

This outcome suggests that the Twins need one more reliable arm in the pen. I'd suggest DFA Pagan, move Archer to the pen, then use the best pitcher available from AAA as the fifth starter, at least until Maeda returns. My first pick for a fifth starter right now would be Winder, given Ober's injury, which could come back the next time he takes an awkward step. 

Note to Ober: Next time an umpire calls timeout during your pitching motion, don't come to a sudden stop. Instead, finish the pitch - right at the ump's head. 

Amused by the chatter that Buxton isn’t performing offensively.

It’s pretty impossible to have that perception unless your expectations for him are completely unrealistic.

He now sits at an 136 OPS+ against a 107 career number. He’s now at 353 PA. He’s NEVER had a year with this many PA that’s been this productive. Not even close. His 2022 BB/K ratio is substantially better than his career number and his 2021 number. Last year’s SS BA/OPS results were completely (and obviously) unsustainable for a litany of reasons.

This IS the good Buxton. And there’s no such thing as “except for his HRS”. Even his poor on base skills can’t ruin an 8% HR rate.

That’s a star player if an every day ++CF that reeks havoc on the bases. Of course, he’s not that. AND THAT is the only reason IMO to be disappointed in Buxton’s 2022. Offensively, this season has been the good version of what he is.

3 hours ago, rv78 said:

Kudos to Bundy. Should have went 6 or 7 and quite possibly even more.

Please no. Dylan Bundy is barely able to go 5 innings. The Twins have been limiting his innings all season and he's responded with a 4.94 RA9. If they ask him to go 7 innings he's going to give up a crooked number.

The Twins do NOT have the starting pitching needed to go 7 innings consistently. Yes, that will put strain on the bullpen but they definitely have a better chance of winning with the bullpen than they do leaning on Archer and Bundy more than they have already.

5 hours ago, USAFChief said:

Brutal.

Lopez had Stassi 0-2 and walks him in the 9th.

 If Gordon takes the proper angle, doesn't dive, and cuts that triple off, it's a double and Stassi doesn't score the tying run from 1st.

And as MarkG points out, for the love of everything holy DRIVE IN SOME RUNS. 

Bah-ruu-tull.

That was a beautiful attempt by Gordon. He couldn't have played it better with an almost perfect straight angle to the ball and he missed the ball by an inch off the tip of his glove, not feet, like a Jake Cave dive. If Gordon doesn't go for the catch, there's no telling which angle the ball takes as it bounces off the wall in the corner of left field. Regardless, 2 runs score as it was 2 outs so the runners went on contact with a run already crossing the plate as Gordon was getting up from his dive and another runner on their way in. Even worse, there's no out at the plate. No, now there's a runner on 2nd or 3rd with 2 outs and a tie game. Things worked out the absolute best way they could, ironically.

Attached is an image of Gordon's route. He took virtually a perfect angle on that ball. 

I should clarify. Orange is the line drive path. Black dots are Nick Gordon and Carlos Correa. Gray dots are the other fielders (Byron Buxton runs all the way over to Gordon). Blue is the throw from Gordon to Correa.

The problem is at the center of the red circle... or it's the runners paths. Either way.

4 hours ago, Whitey333 said:

What a soft soap article this is...

I like soft soap. Doesn't leave a gross pile of scum on the vanity top, refill containers are cheap and huge so they last forever and you can have a one with different scents on each side of the faucet. Looks nice, smells nice. Makes your guests feel like you went an extra step.

There is something odd about a MLB starting pitcher who is a veteran needing to be sat down after 65 pitches against a very poor hitting opponent. The velocity shown by many pitchers today is impressive but most of the velocity is from relief pitchers. Ryan sits around 90-92 with Bundy checking in a few clicks higher and Mahle around 92-95. These are all very good fastballs but not out of the ordinary for good pitchers in the 21st century. Why is there such a drop in pitch counts in the last few decades? Bert Blyleven would groan when a pitcher was taken out with 100-110 pitches, suggesting that when a guy is cruising along throwing another inning was practical. If 100 pitches is a standard for a decent starting pitcher, where does the Twins management team derive their opinion that 60-80 is the ceiling for most of their pitchers? Mahle threw 100+ pitches in ten starts for the Reds but now cannot reach 90 pitches? 

There must be some model the Twins use but it sure isn't working as the bullpen has struggled to fill five innings per game all year. When a team develops a strategy based on the models they deem most likely to produce a positive outcome and it results in a series of fails, there needs to be some reflection. The refusal to consider some change, adjustment, or just some different trial runs in game philosophy in many areas seems just stubborn at this point; pride maybe. The Twins seem to disdain running, bunting, sacrificing, IBB, and other parts of the game. Most egregious is how the model decides the moves and not the performance being shown. Thus we don't see "let him pitch- he is strong" or "he is off-get him out of there" and other human decisions. The Twins management must be watching the games but there are times it isn't obvious. There would never be a place for Tom Kelly or Ron Gardenhire in this organization much less a guy like Terry Francona. I'm mystified as to the plan.

2 hours ago, Aggies7 said:

Last night was the 51st, yes 51st, time the twins have scored 3 runs or fewer this season. 45% of their games played. They were top 5 in most offensive categories for most of the first half but that was fool’s gold. There is too much talent offensively for the offense to be this bad for this long. Clutch hitting has been horrific all season. Don’t we have multiple hitting coaches too? Got to think there will be a big shakeup on the coaching staff this off-season.

The Yankees have scored 3 or fewer runs 45, yes, FORTY FIVE times this year! I think their whole line up is going to be kicked to the curb. Side note, 6 fewer games scoring 3 or less, 13 or 14 games above the Twins in the standings.

It's not the games the Twins score 3 or fewer causing the problem. It's needing to score 10 to win a game. It's the 46 games the Twins have allowed 5 or more runs. If you allow 5 or more, you have to score 6 or more to win. That's not reasonable. Even the very best offenses in the league don't average 6 runs or score 6+ runs even 1/2 the time.

The Twins' pitching results are the problem. 

This was the ultimate team loss.  We left so many on base that if we could have got 1 hit in many cases we could have broke game open.  Beyond that there was some terrible at bats watching some guys swing at ball four near their eyes.  Then late in the game we had some good defense but some bad defense as well. I mainly do not understand why Gordon was not much closer to the line.  The left hand hitter looked like a slap hitter to me, and you add in fact that Lopez throws heat.  No way was he going to pull the ball in the air to right.  Everyone should have been swung way over, but for some reason Gordon was way off the line making him needing to dive.  

Still if we get one hit with runners in scoring position we win the game and not put in that position. 

2 hours ago, MABB1959 said:

Yikes...never thought I would say this but it may be time to trade Buxton...

Full No Trade Clause. Buxton is going nowhere, and even if the Twins wanted to trade him, he's really not worth much in regard to surplus value. Buxton is a good player. A very good player and he's on pace for 123 games and 510 plate appearances this year. This was the absolute BEST case scenario for Buxton.

He is not the reason the Twins aren't winning.

5 hours ago, rv78 said:

Kudos to Bundy. Should have went 6 or 7 and quite possibly even more. Will never get the chance with the current Manager who's in love with his imploding bullpen. Offense is what it is, pathetic. Can't get more than 2 guys to hit in the same game when it counts. Archer for 4 innings today and 6 relievers. Use the get-away lineup today and rest Buxton, Correa and Arraez. Gotta stick to the "Plan".

Is it the manager who is in love with the bullpen or are the decisions coming down from the top?  Like I mean if that is the situation and Rocco doesn't do what they say he will lose his job.  I mean that's kind of why St Louis got rid of their manager last year and he was in the manager of the year running I think?

7 minutes ago, Twodogs said:

Is it the manager who is in love with the bullpen or are the decisions coming down from the top?  Like I mean if that is the situation and Rocco doesn't do what they say he will lose his job.  I mean that's kind of why St Louis got rid of their manager last year and he was in the manager of the year running I think?

Any self respecting manager would quit if all the on field decisions were being made for him and against his wishes. Furthermore, GM's generally don't hire managers who are not on board with a management philosophy the front office believes in.

Baldelli buys into the TTO (third-time through order) logic, which I think is totally flawed. Tyler Mahle has been better TTO this year than STO both in ERA and FIP.

My biggest problem with the TTO myth is how pitchers are pulled. If the pitcher runs into problems with the TTO, their leash is short. Often there are inherited base runners, inflating FIP, and the bullpen allows those runners to score, inflating ERA. The other problem I have is the drop in performance between FTO and STO is greater than STO and TTO. Not to mention, it doesn't matter if there's a drop in performance for TTO if the bullpen arms still aren't better than the starting pitcher in the first place.

4 hours ago, wabene said:

The irony is I have a warning point for personal attacks because I sarcastically called Baldelli a made up version of his name. The irony is I like Baldelli. I like him a lot. The Twins did not lose last night because of Baldelli. They lost because in a tight game their best relief pitchers failed. The game was tight because the offense didn't break out. The only complaint worth anything about my favorite manager was pulling Bundy with a low pitch count. I somewhat agree that last night might have been a good time to extend him. On the other hand the last time Mr Baldelli let Bundy go, Bundy got smacked around right quick. Calling for someone to be fired over and over again is soul crushing. 

So what? to use an investment line, past performance does not guarantee future results.

1 minute ago, USAFChief said:

Nonconcur. 

Take proper angle, cut ball off, 2nd a d 3rd 2 out.

 

Really? Cut the ball off? How was he going to do that? The ball was traveling 90mph (135 feet per second). Gordon runs 28 feet per second (18mph). The ball travels 4x as fast as Gordon's best sprint speed. There no mathematical, theoretical, hypothetical possible way Gordon can "cut the ball off" since it was slicing away from him towards the foul line. Gordon essentially took a right angle path to the ball, which is the shortest distance possible and the only possible chance he had at catching/or cutting the ball off.

You're wrong. Flat out. There is no opinion involved here. This is math.

To Sherry:  are you no longer mentioning the name "Emilio Pagan"?  Many of us Twins fans would love to rinse him out of our hair and baseball lives, but you're obliged to tell the game story.  Pagan gagged again.

5 hours ago, Otto von Ballpark said:

Not all cleanup hitters are equal. Outside of April/May 2022, Taylor Ward is a thoroughly average or below average MLB hitter.

If it's too risky to let Pagán face Ward in that situation, perhaps the questionable choice is using Pagán rather than forgoing another intentional walk.

I kind of agree but the alternative was Megill (or Sands, but with Archer pitching today, you would like to save Sands for today). It was a kind of pick your poison situation.

30 minutes ago, adorduan said:

So what? to use an investment line, past performance does not guarantee future results.

That's is why, as I stated in my post, I could agree that last night was a good opportunity to give Bundy a chance to go further. I'm not sure that it was Baldelli's decision alone to make that decision. I would hope that all those in charge are learning from the results of protecting starters to the extent that they are.

1 hour ago, bean5302 said:

The Yankees have scored 3 or fewer runs 45, yes, FORTY FIVE times this year! I think their whole line up is going to be kicked to the curb. Side note, 6 fewer games scoring 3 or less, 13 or 14 games above the Twins in the standings.

It's not the games the Twins score 3 or fewer causing the problem. It's needing to score 10 to win a game. It's the 46 games the Twins have allowed 5 or more runs. If you allow 5 or more, you have to score 6 or more to win. That's not reasonable. Even the very best offenses in the league don't average 6 runs or score 6+ runs even 1/2 the time.

The Twins' pitching results are the problem. 

Cleveland did it for the 52nd time yesterday. And my White Sox fan friend is about ready to jump off a bridge because they've done it 58 times. You're right -- it's the pitching that has done them in. 

5 hours ago, darwin22 said:

Last night was it for me.  In spite of paying for MLB Extra Inning package to get Bally Sports North here in the KC area, I'm DONE investing any more time and energy into this team.  Will devote my interest--yes a glutton for punishment---to other endeavors, which include the Vikings.  As a loyal fan for 40+ years, I will move on and hope ( a very dangerous thing) for better results next year.  My life would be so much calmer if I didn't like sports.

Yeah I think we just have to sometimes just say "ya know what, I'm done with baseball for a while" and stop paying attention. I also have the MLB package here in Florida. It's not the money, but like you said it's the wasted time that really leads to regrets. 

Last year I turned off the MLB.com notifications on my phone and it really led to a much more peaceful summer. I turned them back on this year, but they're getting zonked again as of today. There's nothing worse than seeing a notification like "Angels 5, Twins 3" when you're using your phone as a flashlight at 2am when you're stumbling to the john.

5 hours ago, Mike Sixel said:

Their two best pitchers lost that game before their worst pitcher took the mound. If they don't DFA Pagan, I'm not sure I can support this front office. 

DFA'ing Duffey is understandable, but doing that and then deciding to keep running Pagan out there every 3rd day is very puzzling.

65 pitches!!!!   65

5 innings....little to no hard contact.

What does it take for guy to stay in the game? Would Rocco pull Bundy if he had a perfect game going if the linuep was turning over for the third time?

It's like Rocco panics after 5 when the Twins have the lead.  "If Jax is perfect....if Duran is perfect....if Lopez is perfect, WE WIN!!!"  Guess what?  That's not always going to happen.

He has absolutely no feel for the game or when a pitcher has it on a particular night.  This one is all on Rocco.