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  • Trade Deadline Preview: The Philadelphia Phillies


    John  Bonnes

    Philadelphia fans' pinnacle isn't that they threw snowballs at Santa Claus. It's that they will defend it to this day because Santa was too skinny. The lesson? Don't disappoint the City of Brotherly Love.  

    Well, the Phillies are. And the Twins can help with their most significant need.

     

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    What's Their Situation?

    The Phillies declared themselves contenders before the 2019 season when they signed Bryce Harper to a 13-year(!) $330M contract. They backed it up with the fourth-highest payroll in MLB this year. And yet, they haven't made the postseason the last two years and are in danger of missing it again.

    This year, the NL Wild Card already looks out of reach, but the NL East is a four-team slugfest (or maybe more of a slap fight?) with the Mets, Phillies, Braves, and Nationals all firmly determined to remain within arm's reach of .500. Whichever team makes the right moves at the deadline could eke out a postseason spot. Plus, the Phillies' needs are relatively straightforward, and the Twins are a good fit for several of them.

    What Do They Need?

    It is remarkable that the Phillies somehow need the same thing every year: bullpen help. You think the Twins' bullpen has been brutal? The Phillies are twice as bad. And I mean that objectively – their relievers have a collective WPA of -3.33, almost doubling the Twins mark of -1.78. The Twins have 12 blown saves on the year, while the Phillies lead the majors in that dubious category with 22.

    Which Twins Are the Best Fit?

    All the relievers, obviously. No, not Alex Colome – even Philly's behavior at the 2018 NFC Championship game doesn't justify that level of punishment. But Hansel Robles, Taylor Rogers, Tyler Duffey, and even Caleb Thielbar would be of interest. The fact that several are team-controlled for multiple years would help the Phillies solve a seemingly perennial problem. And the fact that the Twins can offer multiple arms is even more valuable, giving them the flexibility to get numerous arms by giving up a single more valuable prospect.

    Every team could use some more help in their starting rotation, and the Phils are no exception. They have Zack Wheeler as an ace so far this year, and Aaron Nola and Zach Eflin have been serviceable, but a healthy Michael Pineda or Jose Berrios would obviously be of interest.

    Offensively, you would think a lineup with a core of Harper, J.T. Realmuto, Rhys Hopkins, and Andrew McCutchen would be elite. Yet the Phils' offense is only slightly above average. Still, it's hard to find a fit. 

    The best fit might be Josh Donaldson taking over at third base: the Phils certainly can spend money, and Alec Bohm is posting just a 641 OPS this year, has struggled defensively, and tested positive for Covid on July 11th. However, he's also just 24 years old and a legit prospect who hit .338 last year in his rookie season. It's unlikely the Phils want to block him for the next two years at third base.

    Other than that, the biggest weakness is at shortstop (veteran Didi Gregorius) and center field (injured Odubel Herrera). But the Twins don't have a great replacement for either unless they get an offer they can't refuse for Byron Buxton.

    Who Could The Twins Get Back?

    This is always a shot in the dark, but let's review some candidates...

    Alec Bohm, 3B, 24yo – The aforementioned Bohm is the Phillies' top young player, but he's their everyday third baseman. Could the Twins replace him with Donaldson and throw in some salary or arms (or both) to find a workable package? Seems a lot of moving pieces to arrange.

    Spencer Howard, RHP, 24yo – It's hard to say what Howard's value is these days. This offseason, he was still considered a top 50 overall starting pitching prospect. But now he's spent portions of two seasons in the majors, posted a 5.87 ERA, and was shut down with shoulder soreness in between. This is where scouting matters.

    Rafael Marchan, C, 22yo – It's hard to tell what the Phils' strategy was with Marchan. He was clearly rushed to the majors, meaning he's already burned two option years. He's shown no power, but he's also just 22. He's a switch-hitter, but stronger from his left side, which seems like a good fit. He just seems like the kind of guy the Twins believe they can coach up and shouldn't cost a lot.

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    3 minutes ago, mikelink45 said:

    Yuck - make these trades and I will be throwing the snowballs

    What exactly do you think you'd get for any reliever not named Rogers?

    Donaldson for Bohm is interesting.... If they put that money they save next year to a legit SP or SS. Bohm is highly regarded.

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    I am not a big fan of any Phillies prospects so I dont think Buxton, Berrios or Rogers should be on the table to the Phillies. Now if you could get out of the Donaldson deal and swap for Bohm by maybe adding bullpen arm like Duffey and/or Robles without paying as much $ that would be interesting.. 

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    1 hour ago, Mike Sixel said:

    What exactly do you think you'd get for any reliever not named Rogers?

    Donaldson for Bohm is interesting.... If they put that money they save next year to a legit SP or SS. Bohm is highly regarded.

    I do not see that as a possibility.  But beyond that I seldom find the trades I see to be enticing.  Most of them are about giving up today for hope tomorrow.

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    2 minutes ago, mikelink45 said:

    I do not see that as a possibility.  But beyond that I seldom find the trades I see to be enticing.  Most of them are about giving up today for hope tomorrow.

    They aren't making the playoffs this year .... There is no reason to keep guys on expiring deals. You could get lucky in a trade, or get nothing. 

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    Phillies don't offer much.  It would be nice if the Twins could once make a trade and get major league ready talent.  But I'm sure any trades will be for prospects that may or may not help us in 3-4 years.  That is the way they do it here.  Leaving fans upset 

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    1 hour ago, Whitey333 said:

    Phillies don't offer much.  It would be nice if the Twins could once make a trade and get major league ready talent.  But I'm sure any trades will be for prospects that may or may not help us in 3-4 years.  That is the way they do it here.  Leaving fans upset 

    Very few teams are willing to give up MLB ready players for rental players.  Would you give up a MLB ready player for 3 months of a reliever?  Remember when we got Matt Capps, that was a terrible deal, giving up MLB ready catcher for rental, that we resigned but he was still just a rental.  Years of team control on a MLB ready prospect for 3 month rental is perfect way to get fan base upset.

    Specifically for pitching, how are you going to expected an MLB ready pitcher in any trade?  Every team can always use more, so why would they trade someone that could pitch at MLB level for someone who does now?  Even if they are projected starters and you have 5 good ones, you will still be able to use them out of the pen for the year and go back to starting later on. 

    The only way you can trade for MLB ready talent is you need to give up guys with years of control.  The old way of doing business like it was in 10 plus years ago has gone away.  Teams love to keep low cost controlled players.  

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    12 hours ago, Seth Stohs said:

    No chance Bohm is dealt for Donaldson. None. Bohm is almost as good today, and he's so young. 

    Obviously, not straight up. But acquiring Donaldson would allow the Phillies to trade Bohm for some other need if they wanted to. 

    The idea I keep coming back to is what would happen if the Twins offered Donaldson and Rogers to the Phils, for a minimal return, but making Philly eat most or all of Donaldson's contract? The Phils could add Donaldson to an already pretty potent top of the order, acquire big time help for their bullpen, and still have Bohm if they need him or if they want to trade him for more help. 

    Meanwhile, the Twins get $30M (Donaldson + Rogers) to spend in 2022 and another $30M to spend in 2023 (Donaldson's salary plus buyout). That's enough to get two very good starting pitchers (or one superstar). Or could be enough to make them active in the free agent shortstop market.

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    13 hours ago, Seth Stohs said:

    ...Bohm is almost as good today, and he's so young. 

    I think making a comparison to Donaldson is a pretty bold statement considering Bohm has very little track record to support it from a hitting standpoint and has received pretty poor marks in fielding scouting reports. Bohm had a .410 BABIP in his 180 plate appearances last year and has demonstrated no power above AA (he skipped AAA probably due to no MiLB last year). I do agree, though, no way Donaldson gets Bohm, though.

    I can see the Phillies being very interested in Donaldson, though, especially if they think universal DH is coming in the 2022 CBA. They get protection for Bohm's growing pains while not blocking him and getting a big jump on 2022's DH expanding to the NL. By "very interested" I mean enough to take on his contract and give the Twins a little something back.

     

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    2 hours ago, John Bonnes said:

    Obviously, not straight up. But acquiring Donaldson would allow the Phillies to trade Bohm for some other need if they wanted to. 

    The idea I keep coming back to is what would happen if the Twins offered Donaldson and Rogers to the Phils, for a minimal return, but making Philly eat most or all of Donaldson's contract? The Phils could add Donaldson to an already pretty potent top of the order, acquire big time help for their bullpen, and still have Bohm if they need him or if they want to trade him for more help. 

    Meanwhile, the Twins get $30M (Donaldson + Rogers) to spend in 2022 and another $30M to spend in 2023 (Donaldson's salary plus buyout). That's enough to get two very good starting pitchers (or one superstar). Or could be enough to make them active in the free agent shortstop market.

    My question is can they get someone to take Donaldson and most of his contract for a dozen balls and a case of Gatorade.  If so, I would prefer to trade them separately because Rodgers will bring back a good prospect.  IDK if that is possible but it's preferable IMO.

     

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    3 hours ago, John Bonnes said:

    The idea I keep coming back to is what would happen if the Twins offered Donaldson and Rogers to the Phils, for a minimal return, but making Philly eat most or all of Donaldson's contract? The Phils could add Donaldson to an already pretty potent top of the order, acquire big time help for their bullpen, and still have Bohm if they need him or if they want to trade him for more help. 

    Meanwhile, the Twins get $30M (Donaldson + Rogers) to spend in 2022 and another $30M to spend in 2023 (Donaldson's salary plus buyout). That's enough to get two very good starting pitchers (or one superstar). Or could be enough to make them active in the free agent shortstop market.

    As I think about any move I think about the lens of either 2022 or 2023 and beyond.

    I acknowledge that the money will help address a starting pitcher and/or shortstop for 2022. I also foresee a gutted bullpen. It is hard to view any trade of Rogers through the lens of truly contending in 2022. 

    Rogers is one of their best trade assets. He is also the only late inning arm under control they can count on next year. I would set the bar high in a trade and only move him for a young starting pitching prospect with the lens on 2023 and beyond. I need to be blown away and BTV will see assess it as “not accepted” as it does in a trade for a guy like Nick Abel.

    Sustained success depends on young controllable starting pitching. They must use their best assets to acquire that pitching.

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    8 hours ago, Major League Ready said:

    My question is can they get someone to take Donaldson and most of his contract for a dozen balls and a case of Gatorade.  If so, I would prefer to trade them separately because Rodgers will bring back a good prospect.  IDK if that is possible but it's preferable IMO.

     

    Donaldson's been hot lately and he's on pace to generate about 3 WAR this season which is totally solid for a starting 3B. On top of that, he doesn't have a long contract and that combination isn't super easy to come by. Donaldson is looked at pretty universally as a good to great bat. Worst case scenario, you trade him in the offseason. There is some risk he gets injured and misses a bunch of time again, but the bat is just too steady to ignore. Josh Donaldson isn't Chris Davis.

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    14 hours ago, jorgenswest said:

    As I think about any move I think about the lens of either 2022 or 2023 and beyond.

    I acknowledge that the money will help address a starting pitcher and/or shortstop for 2022. I also foresee a gutted bullpen. It is hard to view any trade of Rogers through the lens of truly contending in 2022. 

    Rogers is one of their best trade assets. He is also the only late inning arm under control they can count on next year. I would set the bar high in a trade and only move him for a young starting pitching prospect with the lens on 2023 and beyond. I need to be blown away and BTV will see assess it as “not accepted” as it does in a trade for a guy like Nick Abel.

    Sustained success depends on young controllable starting pitching. They must use their best assets to acquire that pitching.

    Well said!

    2022 would require everything come together like it did in 2019 but there are some differences.  The biggest difference is the FO must choose between keeping assets like Rodgers / Berrios and Buxton or targeting 2023 and beyond.  They did not need to risk the future to succeed in 2019.  The prospects that would come back from those trades could have a huge impact for several years.  Of course, they could all flame out.  Odds are some good even very good players would come out of trading these high value assets.

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