Tigers 5, Twins 0: Bats Have No Answers For Skubal, Get Shut Out Again

9 minutes ago, Doctor Gast said:

IMO Baldelli thinks of himself as a chess master. Where he likes to mix in 3-5 short RPs to fit the situation and mix up the line-up accordingly to analytics. Lot of good can be said about analytics but last minute whims prevents players to mentally prepare. Lot of good can be attributed to having a  player settled in a routine and not to rely so much on short relief and figuring in reliable long relief in almost every game and use short relief only when need be.

You hit the nail on the head with that first sentence. Although I don't think it has so much to do with the pitchers as it does with the lineup. Rocco thinks he is outsmarting the opponent by creating lineups that should be favorable matchups against the starting pitcher they are facing that day. Kaat explains why it isn't a good thing to do, which is what I've been saying since Rocco has become Manager. This year he is taking his daily lineup changes to the extreme. Kaat also mentioned the other day that in the first 49 games the Twins have played this year that they have had 45 different lineups. I would like to think Kaat has seen more good baseball in his lifetime than Rocco ever will. I'll believe Kaat on this one. 

I don't see how the Twins hitters being unable to score a run off Detroit for 2 straight days is Rocco Baldelli's fault. If you don't like him, fine. But there's very little blame on his shoulders for the recent stumbles of this team.

They can't hit the baseball, guys. It's as simple as that.

10 hours ago, Rosterman said:

The Twins so need Sano back!

Only to trade him

26 minutes ago, bighat said:

I don't see how the Twins hitters being unable to score a run off Detroit for 2 straight days is Rocco Baldelli's fault. If you don't like him, fine. But there's very little blame on his shoulders for the recent stumbles of this team.

They can't hit the baseball, guys. It's as simple as that.

You are in the minority. So you are saying Kaat doesn't know what he is talking about? Is resting 3 of your main players all on the same day NOT Rocco's fault? If it isn't, who's is it? Why did Rocco use the excuse of a shortened spring training for his hitters not getting off to a good start? Because they didn't get enough at bats on a consistant basis, yet here we are going into June and they still don't get enough at bats on a consistant basis because he doesn't play them on a consistant basis! Is limiting their playing time keeping them from being injured? Right now the Twins have more injuries than any other team in baseball. Is his constant resting of players keeping them healthy? Not even close.  

Can't believe all the harping about Rocco and the team after yesterday's game.

Yes, it was tough to watch.  But what could we expect with basically a AAA lineup facing a very good young pitcher.  Unfortunately, Buxton, Correa, Kepler and Arraez were all either out or on the bench.  That's half their normal starting lineup...the best half.  And yes, Jeffers probably shouldn't be with the Twins the way he has been hitting.  So the result should have been expected.  probably more of the same today.

I believe Buxton has more serious injuries than we know of.  They talk about maintenance, but it is likely more a rest plan to keep him on the field some of the time.  Correa is out with COVID.  Max has been kind of an iron man throughout his career, but he is battling a leg injury.  Considering all the others missing, they are trying to nurse him thru it.  And Arraez was the Manager's decision.  Should he have been in the lineup?  Considering everyone else that was missing, I would have had him there.  But he isn't as effective against lefties, so it was a good pitcher/day for him to take a break.

And for those above comments that the team isn't missing all that much.  Excuse me?  Buxton is injured, Correa out with COVID, Celestino out with COVID, Ryan out with COVID, Gray maybe missing another start/injury after recently returning from the IL, Alcala out almost all year, Sano out for 60+ days, Kirilloff back in AAA trying to overcome a potentially career ending/altering injury, Kepler playing thru an injury, Polonco dealing with an ankle problem, but playing most of the time.  They were missing their two best players and two best starting pitchers.  That would be tough for any team/manager.

Now I am not a fan of Rocco, lots of little things hit me the wrong way.  But he knows a heck of a lot more about baseball than I and is paid to manage the team.  He is who we have, may as well live with it.  

When I read some of these comments, I get horrible flashbacks to my youth.  "That's the way the game is played now" reminds me of when my mother would ask "If all your friends jumped of a bridge, would you do it too?".  And she was right.  It's a silly way to operate.  If doing what everyone else is doing isn't working, then do something different.  I believe (my opinion, not a statement of truth) that Kaat is correct that players are more comfortable with a routine and that includes knowing ahead of time that they are in the lineup.  I also believe (again, just my opinion and not an absolute) that playing through an injury is stupid.  Either sit on the bench or go on the IL until you are near 100%.  If you have to use lesser mortals from the minors for a while, then do it.  A healthy minor leaguer isn't much worse (in many instances) than an injured major leaguer.  If they aren't, then your farm system sucks.

Not sure if I should be infuriated that the Twins are .500 in this stretch against bottom feeders or happy this stretch of bottom feeders is while the teams health is in disarray.

Please forgive the multiple entries above.  I wasn't trying to prove my point through repetition.  My tablet was acting like it wasn't posting my comment and I kept hitting "SUBMIT".

25 minutes ago, chpettit19 said:

Be mad at Buxton and Correa. They've openly spoken about how this is the strategy they want to follow. Buxton is hurt right now. I don't know how anyone could watch him run and not know he's hurt. That knee isn't right. He wants to have rest days while getting treatment and playing through it. Kepler is hurt right now. Don't know how anyone can watch him run and not know he's hurt. He's also playing through it so needed a rest day. Correa has covid so the league won't let him play. Polanco missed multiple games cuz his ankle is acting up. Don't know how anyone could watch him swing and not know he's hurt. Those are the 4 best hitters on the team. 1 is completely out (after having been injured earlier in the year on a HBP, can't really blame Rocco for that), and the other 3 are all trying to play through injury. Not sure how that's Rocco's fault. (I do hate resting Correa and Buxton on the same day, though)

Do people really think the players are sitting around enraged that they have no idea when they're going to play or what spot in the order they'll hit in and Rocco is telling them to f off? Is that the situation people are picturing in their head? Do they think professional athletes in 2022 are afraid to speak up when they don't like something? So I am saying Kaat doesn't know what he's talking about. It's not the 60s-80s anymore. Anyone think the Dodgers aren't the best team in baseball? Over the last 7 days they've used 7 different lineups. 7 days. 7 different lineups. Yankees a pretty good offense? Last 7 days, 7 different lineups. This is how baseball is played now. Or should those teams fire their managers, too? Can we please, please, please, please, please, please, please quit blaming Rocco Baldelli for how baseball is played in 2022? And for the record, I wouldn't care if they fired Rocco tomorrow cuz I don't think he's anything special. But this is how basically every major league team is run now. It's time to accept it.

You might have defeated your own point when you used the 2 best teams in baseball right now as examples.  The problem with group think, is not every one of the group is equal, and our 7 different lineups just aren't the Dodger's 7 lineups; we have to use our best players far more often.  We don't, because "the way the game is managed today" (seems that is all I hear these days) is more important than putting your best lineup on the field.  At least to these 3 (and maybe more like them in the league).  Doesn't make it wise.

29 minutes ago, terrydactyls said:

Please forgive the multiple entries above.  I wasn't trying to prove my point through repetition.  My tablet was acting like it wasn't posting my comment and I kept hitting "SUBMIT".

I thought maybe the multiple posts were your flashbacks.....LOL

This Rocco bashing is silly. I really don't think he got considerably dumber in the past week. 

I had to laugh at the posts about Garlick being disaffected because he was batting lead-off. I am pretty sure that Kyle thanks his personal god every day for being in the majors, regardless of his role. If it counted toward accruing MLB service time, I'm pretty sure he would wash Falvey's car. 

The Twins are going through a bad stretch of injuries, infection and a torturously crowded schedule which reveals the thinness of their ranks. But honestly how are most teams going to do when they are using their fourth option at shortstop?

But, a large part of the truth is that the team goes as Buck goes. He is hurt and it shows. Mathematically, this has likely manifested itself in a 2-3 game negative probabilistic delta. But from a morale standpoint, I think it's worse than that.

Their next 10 games are a march down a path of shards of broken glass and rusty nails. If they win 3 games, I think they will consider themselves lucky. 

The hitting will return when Correa and the real Byron do. However, if they are serious about competing, they still need to fix the bullpen. It reminds me of the drunk guy in Vegas who wins a few hands of cards and then suddenly thinks he is gambling savant. He sits for a while and the chips start ebbing the other way. Then they are all gone. The house and the odds eventually always win.   

Ober did not have his best but he was not helped out by his defense either.  Polanco should have come up with Barnhart's "hit" in the 5th.  That may have changed the complexion of the whole inning.

And this Buxton injury crap is getting old.  If he is that hurt IL him already.  As good as he is, having him play at half speed and needing every third game off is hurting the team right now.

59 minutes ago, chpettit19 said:

You're just ignoring my entire first paragraph here. The Twins best players are hurt. So, no, I didn't defeat my own point. The point is that every team's lineup changes constantly. Due to injuries sometimes. Due to guys with massive platoon splits. Due to guys going through slumps. Due to bench guys needing to get some ABs or regulars just needing a breather. When healthy the Twins went Buxton-Arraez-Correa-Polanco against righties basically everyday. They mixed and matched on the back end some based on who was catching or who was playing LF or who was hitting well, etc. But they had a regular lineup base that they built off of. But now 2 of those top 4 are hurt and 1 is out with covid and people are mad the Twins are adjusting.

The point is to make up for not having the same talent level as the Dodgers the Twins, and most other teams, have to find ways to make up the gap. They do that by using a variety of relievers while not letting the big time lineups see their starter more than twice (fire Rocco!) and by finding any platoon split advantage they can throughout the game, starting from inning 1 (fire Rocco!). Teams without All Stars 1-9 in their lineup need to switch guys in and out to find slight advantages where they can. The Twins need to switch their lineup up more than the Dodgers to find the advantage. The Dodgers having superior players means they can just plug in their top 9 and go while the Twins need to have more strategy. But, again, when healthy, the Twins have a top of the lineup that they stick with pretty darn consistently.

One of my favorite things in the world are everyday Joes like us on the internet claiming we're so much smarter than the entire professional baseball industry. Its fascinating that people think they're so much smarter than the Twins and Rocco. Like we have even 1/10th of the data they do or have spoken to the players in the clubhouse. So fascinating.

I am not ignoring anything; I simply don't agree.  JK isn't just some former player living out his glory days in autograph sessions.  He has stayed close to the game for multiple organizations and is in contact with players and coaches on a daily basis.  He has forgotten more than the two of us combined will ever know, so when you say you don't think he knows what he is talking about you lose your point right then and there.  

My point about the lineups was simple; the better teams are better because they are deeper.  They can platoon and rest guys against tough pitchers more so than the lesser teams.  We aren't as deep, so we need to play our best players more than they do, and play them where they play the best, not in 3,4,or 5 positions all over the field.   And when our best players are hurt, you play the best remaining players in their place.  When our best are hurt we still do the rotations, rest guys, put in AAA players, etc. etc. etc.  The plan does not vary as the players do.  And no they don't stick to the lineup consistently, as evidenced by 45 different lineups in 49 games.  And that has been the pattern since '19 in his first year, so I have to believe it is a FO thing as well.  I mean absolutely no offense when I say this, but if I have to pick who I listen to, JK or virtually anyone here (myself included), that isn't even a thought process.  And going back over the years he is far from the only former player (and hall of famer) who has said similar things.  They all do it this way simply is not a reason; it is cover.  30 different rosters and pitching staffs all doing things the same?  On what planet does that make sense?  Not every pitcher needs a pitch count.  Not every player needs as many "days off" (and DHing other days) as we give them.  Others do.  And every team has a different number of each.  Group think is a cop out.  It is just rare for a JK to say it out loud; don't think there aren't others.  Thanks for the debate; I always appreciate it.  

14 hours ago, USAFChief said:

Huh. Alex Faedo on the mound for the Tigers tomorrow. Didn't even know the former Twins SS made the switch to pitcher.

It's his second cousin. See today's game thread for details.

2 hours ago, rv78 said:

Right now the Twins have more injuries than any other team in baseball. Is his constant resting of players keeping them healthy? Not even close.  

Again - who's injured? Celestino?

Correa's got Covid which isn't an injury, but otherwise the gang's all here. Polanco, Kepler, Buxton, Arraez, Larnach, Urshela, Sanchez....that's the Twins normal lineup. And the Tigers are holding them to 3 hits per game and shutting them out!

These guys can't hit, man. And aside from a few landslide innings this year, they haven't hit all season. This is a bad offensive ballclub, and the fault is on the guys standing in the batter's box. Just my opinion.

2 hours ago, chpettit19 said:

Players have a routine and know if they're playing ahead of time. Us not knowing doesn't mean Rocco sits in his office, hotel room, house, whatever and schemes up plans to keep things hidden from his players. Arraez knows he doesn't start against lefties. Correa and Buxton know when their scheduled days off are (I hate them being on the same day and they should adjust the plan when that happens). Garlick knows he doesn't start against righties. The pen guys know which days they'll be likely to be called on and in what situations. The players know. Their routines are daily routines no matter what their role in the lineup is. They go out there everyday (outside of starting pitchers who have their own routine) and go through the same stretching, hitting, fielding, running, trainers room, weight room, etc. routine every single day. They have their routine. Back when Kaat was playing they didn't even have half the stuff the players do now. I just don't get what people think the Twins are doing. The players already know if they're starting today or not. You and I not knowing doesn't mean the team doesn't know. Kaat not being privy doesn't mean the team isn't.

This right here. Just because WE don't know who's playing when and where doesn't mean the players don't know. Some of you all seem to think that they players are sitting on their phones refreshing Twitter waiting for Do-Hyoung Park to post the lineup. I'd be willing to bet they typically know the night before whether or not they're starting the next day. So, until I hear some indication from the players that this is affecting them, I don't believe one bit that it's affecting them. In fact, as others have pointed out, players like Buxton and Correa have actually indicated the exact opposite, that they LIKE it, and I'll take their word for it over Kaat's.

I highly doubt the batters prepare any differently whether they are batting 1st, 5th, or 8th in the lineup. They're just preparing based on the pitcher they're facing. And they're not dumb, they know their splits and platoons and such, so I doubt they're ever surprised if/where they appear in the lineup.

The relievers also likely know whether or not they are available that day just based on the past couple games bullpen usage. And I would bet they aren't preparing to pitch a specific inning, but instead are preparing to face specific batters, or at least a combination of batters/inning. They know what's going on in the game, so they know if the starter is struggling or not, and what his pitch count is, and if "their batters" are coming up, so they can be mentally prepared to start warming up, and if they're not it's their own fault.

1 hour ago, SwainZag said:

Garlick has the highest OBP and OPS on the team against left handed pitching outside of Larnach.  There was a lefty on the mound.  It's not really that hard to understand why he hits Garlick in the top of the order against lefties.

Top of the order (2,3,4)  I can understand, but leadoff? That's entirely different. Especially when Buxton and Arraez are both options. And even Larnach would be a better option IMO. I knew it was gonna be a disaster before the game even started.

1 hour ago, chaderic20 said:

This right here. Just because WE don't know who's playing when and where doesn't mean the players don't know. Some of you all seem to think that they players are sitting on their phones refreshing Twitter waiting for Do-Hyoung Park to post the lineup. I'd be willing to bet they typically know the night before whether or not they're starting the next day. So, until I hear some indication from the players that this is affecting them, I don't believe one bit that it's affecting them. In fact, as others have pointed out, players like Buxton and Correa have actually indicated the exact opposite, that they LIKE it, and I'll take their word for it over Kaat's.

I highly doubt the batters prepare any differently whether they are batting 1st, 5th, or 8th in the lineup. They're just preparing based on the pitcher they're facing. And they're not dumb, they know their splits and platoons and such, so I doubt they're ever surprised if/where they appear in the lineup.

The relievers also likely know whether or not they are available that day just based on the past couple games bullpen usage. And I would bet they aren't preparing to pitch a specific inning, but instead are preparing to face specific batters, or at least a combination of batters/inning. They know what's going on in the game, so they know if the starter is struggling or not, and what his pitch count is, and if "their batters" are coming up, so they can be mentally prepared to start warming up, and if they're not it's their own fault.

Yeah, I agree with this.  I've never understood why it would somehow be different to hit 1st v 3rd v 5th v 8th.  You're still facing the pitcher, it's still 4 balls and 3 strikes.  The only difference is that since the best hitters tend to be grouped in the first half of the lineup, hitting in the first half of the lineup means it's more likely there will be runners on base.  That's literally the only difference.

I do think there is something to be said for having a consistent defensive alignment, and letting players play more days in a row to get in a bit of a rhythm.  I haven't done the analysis to see if that's happening or not, just a general thought.

Good arguments both ways. Everyone has their own opinion including Jim Kaat. Question is, if Rocco wasn't resting guys as much as he is or changing lineups as much as he does, would they be hitting the ball better? We'll never know because Rocco will never try to find out. Here's an idea he should try: Play the same guys at the same positions hitting in the same spot in the lineup for 2 weeks straight regardless of who they are facing as a pitcher, a righty or lefty. At the end of the 2 weeks if they haven't found their hitting stroke by then, I'll admit I'm wrong. Maybe Kitty will too.

1 hour ago, chpettit19 said:

The problem with Buxton's specific injury is that it's not just a "sit and rest and it'll heal" injury. Putting him on the IL means he's out for 6-8 weeks. The injury is healing through limited playing time and treatment. If you're ready to miss him for 2 months ok, but just be aware that's the timeline you're looking at.

IMO Buxton has been missing for the past several weeks already...