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  • The Hunt For An Ace Starter


    Nick Nelson

    Clayton Kershaw. Dallas Keuchel. Rich Hill. Justin Verlander.

    These veteran studs, with their ace-type profiles and plentiful big-game experience, were tabbed by Houston and Los Angeles to start Games 1 and 2 of the World Series. Each played a major role in getting his team to the big stage.

    The Twins' deficiency in this area is the biggest reason it's hard to view them as serious contenders to make their own deep October run next year.

    What can they do about it?

    Image courtesy of Troy Taormina, USA Today

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    Minnesota has one starting pitcher who can credibly be placed in the same category as the four mentioned above, and in many ways it feels like a stretch to do so.

    Sure, Ervin Santana had some core numbers in 2017 that were on par with the league's top tier – namely, a 3.28 ERA and 1.13 WHIP to go along with 16 wins – but for various reasons, he just doesn't quite measure up.

    There's the track record. To his credit, Santana enjoyed a career year at age 34, but in 2,170 previous MLB innings he had a 4.09 ERA and 1.28 WHIP.

    There are the peripheral numbers. Santana was among the league's most homer-prone starters this season, with walk and strikeout rates that were closer to average than elite. The success was heavily aided by a career-low .247 BABIP. His 4.77 xFIP suggests the performance was not nearly as good as the results, and that we shouldn't expect the same going forward.

    And then there is the wear and tear. Santana's durability is to be admired – he has made 30-plus starts in each of the past seven seasons (excepting his suspension-shortened 2015). But all those innings take a toll. Erv threw 100-plus pitches in 17 starts this year, and threw 37% sliders overall. He'll turn 35 in December. There hasn't yet been a drop-off in pitch velocity or quality, but few arms can escape the ravages of time and attrition forever.

    For all these reasons, Santana looks like a poor bet to be the No. 1 starter that the Twins need in 2017 if they're aiming for a championship.

    So where can they find this most coveted of assets? If he's coming from within the organization, it'll still probably take at least a couple more years. So let's explore a few avenues for realistically adding an ace-caliber starter from the outside.

    FREE AGENCY

    There are three pitchers set to be on the open market who could slot above Santana in the Twins rotation: Jake Arrieta, Lance Lynn and Yu Darvish. All three have the attributes to be a rotation-fronter for a true contender, and each has more or less filled that role within the past few years.

    Signing Arrieta, Lynn or Darvish will also require more than double the $54 million that Terry Ryan committed to Santana in 2014 when making him the highest-paid free agent in franchise history. So in a way, it's a little hard to envision.

    Or is it? There's a lot of payroll coming off the books over the next few years.

    In the 2018 Offseason Handbook (coming next week, make sure to preorder and get yours early!) we'll give you the low-down on these three free agents and 18 more, as well as a breakdown of payroll flexibility and how they all might fit financially.

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    TRADES

    Last winter, in the ultimately fruitless Brian Dozier trade talks, the Twins seemingly targeted the right kinds of arms in a loaded Dodgers system. While they probably won't revisit discussions with LA, this increasingly impressive scouting department undoubtedly has some other names from other organizations on the "Want" list.

    Are they willing to pony up? High-end pitchers, or prospects with that kind of potential, don't come cheap. Minnesota would surely be looking for a younger guy with multiple years of control, and that only ups the ante.

    The name that pops here is Chris Archer. One of the best pitchers in the game, he keeps getting mentioned as a candidate to be moved, though it's not clear why; he's 29 and signed very reasonably through 2021 with team options. I can't even imagine the package it would take to get him.

    Since established aces are exceedingly tough to pry away, the Twins would more likely need to identify someone who is on the verge of reaching that level. A tall task indeed.

    I'll just throw a name out there: Dinelson Lamet, of the Padres. The 25-year-old right-hander looked solid in his MLB debut this summer, averaging well over a strikeout per inning and featuring a 95 MPH heater. San Diego, perpetually one of the worst offensive teams in the majors, would LOVE to add some promising young bats.

    Are there other names out there that catch people's attention in the same way? Share in the comments.

    INTERNATIONAL

    We may see an unprecedented scenario play out over the next few months. By all accounts, Japanese superstar Shohei Otani fully intends to sign with an MLB team and head to the States. He's been called "Japan's Babe Ruth." Otani touches triple-digits and piles up whiffs with a nasty repertoire. Oh, and he's a good enough hitter that some legitimately believe he could DH on top of pitching.

    Two-way player or not, there's a decent chance the 23-year-old quickly becomes one of the top starters in the majors. And cost will not really be a factor in acquiring him.

    Per the new CBA, foreign players under the age of 25 are considered international amateurs and are thus subject to the bonus pool system. Otani could only sign a minor-league deal with a bonus of a few million tops.

    Many teams have already spent a majority of their allotted amounts. It bears noting that Minnesota is one of eight clubs that could offer a bonus of more than $1 million, though the Rangers and Yankees are also on that list, and probably more attractive destinations.

    I just don't see how the Twins make this happen. In fact, I really can't see Otani coming over this winter and forfeiting the $100M+ he'd be eligible to earn by waiting two more years. But, he says he's doing it, so we'll have to wait and see what happens.

    It's going to be an interesting offseason on all fronts. And with the World Series now officially underway, it's suddenly almost upon us.

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    Well, they're not going to spend $30m in free agency unless they liquidate some valuable players (Escobar, maybe Gibson is "valuable" if you squint).

     

    Removing Gibson maybe gets you to $25m. That's still not enough to pay two relievers and a starter.

    Even if we accept the figures in the handbook, why shouldn't they spend the money in 2018 that they didn't spend in 2017, and 2016?

     

    They just get to bank that, without anyone questioning it?

     

    They can spend whatever they chose to spend. And they could certainly add $30m in 18 and not lose money, particularly if you average over the past several years.

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    Even if we accept the figures in the hansbook, why shouldn't they spend the money in 2018 that they didn't pend in 2017, and 2016?

    They've proven time and time again they're not going to do that so I don't see the point in getting upset about it anymore. They've chosen to run this team at a profit - which is beyond irritating at times - but that's just a cold, hard reality of the situation.

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    Lamet has pitched 1 season with the Padres and wasn't that great. He's not being suggested because of his numbers in San Diego. He's young, has good stuff and a 2.99 ERA in the minors. 

     

    He's not a "legit 1/2 type" now, that's the point. He's never been a top prospect and wasn't spectacular as a rookie. But he has the underlying components to break out, IMO. The idea is to find those guys BEFORE they make that leap and thus not have to give up the farm. 

     

    Folks, are we automatically dismissing every pitcher that comes out of the Padres system now? Because, you know, some guy named Kluber was fished out of the very same organization...

     

    Fair response. I just don't get why the Padres would make a deal for a guy like this, if he has any shot at being good, this early in his career. Most of the guys you find like this, have failed for a year or two, then come back to be good. 

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    Fair response. I just don't get why the Padres would make a deal for a guy like this, if he has any shot at being good, this early in his career. Most of the guys you find like this, have failed for a year or two, then come back to be good. 

    The only reason I can think the Padres would be interested is because their MLB team is not very good and most of their organizational depth (which is pretty good) is still in the low minors.

     

    But that seems like a bit of a stretch me.

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    Lamet has pitched 1 season with the Padres and wasn't that great. He's not being suggested because of his numbers in San Diego. He's young, has good stuff and a 2.99 ERA in the minors. 

     

    He's not a "legit 1/2 type" now, that's the point. He's never been a top prospect and wasn't spectacular as a rookie. But he has the underlying components to break out, IMO. The idea is to find those guys BEFORE they make that leap and thus not have to give up the farm. 

     

    Folks, are we automatically dismissing every pitcher that comes out of the Padres system now? Because, you know, some guy named Kluber was fished out of the very same organization...

     

    There are a couple of good examples - Kluber being one, and Drew Pomeranz as well. I'm probably just a bit jaded from Tim Stauffer still. 

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    Archer > Cole.  Both will require a heavy package.  Twins would have to gut there farm system to get there or give up some major league talent.  Would rather spend dollars than gut the future of a mid market team (if not the future the replacement of the players that do not stay here).

    One trade is not going to gut our farm system. I understand free agency is only money and when we lose several of our future stars to free agency it will be only money. Let's save our only money to pay our future stars as much as possible and not spent 10-20+ times as much on those not named Buxton or Sano.

    Edited by howieramone2
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    Maybe I read the tea leaves wrong, but I assumed when the Twins hired Falvey the idea was to do what Cleveland did; identify and procure a young stable of arms before they hit their peak and every other team wanted them.

    He took starting pitching with picks 3, 4, and 5 in the 2017 draft and followed that up by picking up 4 arms at the trade deadline. Castro and Gimenez, like all players brought in by our FO, are board scapegoats, but very inspired pickups to work with our young pitchers. Roman wasn't built in a long weekend.

    Edited by howieramone2
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    They've proven time and time again they're not going to do that so I don't see the point in getting upset about it anymore. They've chosen to run this team at a profit - which is beyond irritating at times - but that's just a cold, hard reality of the situation.

     

    I think the other factor is they really don't want to lock up multiple 3-5 year contracts at inflated FA prices as they need to start paying the emerging core, as well as make decisions on Mauer and Dozier, who they may want to keep.

     

    They would potentially go bigger on a 1-2 year deal if it presents itself, but those are a little more rare, and for it to be a difference maker it often has to be a vet that is chasing a really good chance at a ring, not sure the Twins can sell that *quite* yet.

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    They've proven time and time again they're not going to do that so I don't see the point in getting upset about it anymore. They've chosen to run this team at a profit - which is beyond irritating at times - but that's just a cold, hard reality of the situation.

     

    You're upset because a business owner chooses to run his business at a profit? I sure hope you don't run your own business.

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    You're upset because a business owner chooses to run his business at a profit? I sure hope you don't run your own business.

    That’s not exactly what I said. They’ve been running with a very low payroll for quite some time. It’s be nice if they chose to sacrifice profits for a season or two after a half decade of big profits but it’s pretty apparent they’re not willing to do that.
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    That’s not exactly what I said. They’ve been running with a very low payroll for quite some time. It’s be nice if they chose to sacrifice profits for a season or two after a half decade of big profits but it’s pretty apparent they’re not willing to do that.

     

    Good owners also operate a sports franchise as a hobby/entertainment. I don't think there are any owners left whose primary income comes from a sports team. 

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    That’s not exactly what I said. They’ve been running with a very low payroll for quite some time. It’s be nice if they chose to sacrifice profits for a season or two after a half decade of big profits but it’s pretty apparent they’re not willing to do that.

     

    I'm not sure that's fully known yet. Franchises act differently when they are close to a championship vs. coming off 59 wins, for example.

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    That’s not exactly what I said. They’ve been running with a very low payroll for quite some time. It’s be nice if they chose to sacrifice profits for a season or two after a half decade of big profits but it’s pretty apparent they’re not willing to do that.

    Your "exact" words were "beyond irritating" which I think to me is the equivalent of upset. Regardless, I am not a fan of the "let's throw money at the problem and see if that works" business model that many fans (and some owners) seem to like. For example, the Red Sox. They have a pretty good everyday lineup and over the last two years have opted to allocated $50M per year to two pitchers (Sale and Price). That get them to a playoff round. Whoppee. They probably would have gotten there without Sale and Price. I'm just going to sit back, watch what the new front office does over the next couple of years, and then offer them my unsolicitated advice.

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    You are absolutely correct but you still don't like taking a $20M or $30M loss on a hobby.

     

    Sure, there's a limit for anyone on taking a loss. We can only speculate what that threshold is for the Pohlad's... I've accepted the financial constraints this ownership group put in place. 

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    It's a single offseason. I'd be satisfied with one and one. I don't think this team really needs two relievers given how some guys stepped forward late last season and how there are intriguing arms in the upper minors.

     

    I don't think the Twins have the payroll flexibility to get a good starter and two good relievers (the upcoming handbook has hard numbers on payroll and there isn't $30m to spare... maybe $15-20m, tops).

    Here's a model that keeps them below $150M until 2022...keeps the Core...extends Dozier and Joe...adds $25M for a starter (Darvish in this case) picks up Otani (it's a 50/50 chance for everyone at this point) and budgets 4/$26M for a closer

     

    If the Twins are in the playoffs (nothing guaranteed) each of those years and we use the 50% rule for Payroll this should be doable...or somebody will be doing some creative accounting

     

    Twins Payroll Tool Japanese Connection

     

    Make your own model using the Twins Payroll Tool

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    IMO, if they don't find pitching help in the next year or two, Sano and Buxton's time will be remembered like Mauer and Morneau's time.....wasted.

    It is not like they ever made the playoffs with them. Their time wasted is because they generally had poor post seasons or were injured and could not participate

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    Your "exact" words were "beyond irritating" which I think to me is the equivalent of upset. Regardless, I am not a fan of the "let's throw money at the problem and see if that works" business model that many fans (and some owners) seem to like. For example, the Red Sox. They have a pretty good everyday lineup and over the last two years have opted to allocated $50M per year to two pitchers (Sale and Price). That get them to a playoff round. Whoppee. They probably would have gotten there without Sale and Price. I'm just going to sit back, watch what the new front office does over the next couple of years, and then offer them my unsolicitated advice.

    For starters, it'd be nice if they stuck to their own threshold by spending 52% of revenue on payroll. They've been way under that number for six years now.

     

    I don't expect the Twins to take a loss on the team in a season. But the reality is that they've been pocketing tens of millions of dollars per season since moving to Target Field and it's time to repay the fans by picking up the required pieces to turn this team into a legitimate contender.

     

    I don't expect them to field a $150m payroll. I'd be happy with $125m right now.

     

    After all, I'm one of the people who is paying for that nice new stadium that allows them to make that profit.

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    That’s not exactly what I said. They’ve been running with a very low payroll for quite some time. It’s be nice if they chose to sacrifice profits for a season or two after a half decade of big profits but it’s pretty apparent they’re not willing to do that.

     

     

    It would be even "nicer" if they were actually tracking the dollars they did not spend over the lean years when they "could have" but didn't and instead "overspent" now that the timing is right. If this organization fails to go "over budget" a couple of times here during what appears to be an up cycle, that will really really make me angry.

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    I love the Lamet idea! That would be expensive but he could be amazing. How much would a Lamet/Brad Hand package cost?
    Probably doesn’t hurt that Lavine and Preller know each other well.

    I wonder if a package of Gordon and Gonsalves gets us close on Lamet and Hand...

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    Hill over the past 2 years: 2.78 ERA, 3.12 FIP, 1.05 WHIP, 10.8 K/9

    Santana over the past 2 years: 3.32 ERA, 4.16 FIP, 1.17 WHIP, 7.2 K/9

     

    That looks to me like the pretty clear delineation between a #1 and #2. Santana has the advantage in durability (Hill and those pesky blisters), but when both healthy I can't imagine there's a person in the baseball world who wouldn't choose Hill to start a playoff game. 

     

    That's a hell of a qualifier. Over the past two years, Hill has put up a 149 ERA+ in 246 innings while pitching in the NL in an extremely good pitching ball park. He's amassed 3.5 WAR.  Santana has pitched in a hitters park in the AL the last two years and put up 8.4 WAR while throwing 393 innings with a 131 ERA+. I can't see how anyone can make a claim that Hill is an ace but Santana is not. And Hill got rocked in his first start this post-season too.

     

    Rate stats are nice but you're taking them a bit too far.

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    Lamet might be the type of pitcher the FO would look for.   Control would appear to be the issue. If the management believes they can fix it as well as his pitching with men on base he could become the effective starter.

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    Your "exact" words were "beyond irritating" which I think to me is the equivalent of upset. Regardless, I am not a fan of the "let's throw money at the problem and see if that works" business model that many fans (and some owners) seem to like. For example, the Red Sox. They have a pretty good everyday lineup and over the last two years have opted to allocated $50M per year to two pitchers (Sale and Price). That get them to a playoff round. Whoppee. They probably would have gotten there without Sale and Price. I'm just going to sit back, watch what the new front office does over the next couple of years, and then offer them my unsolicitated advice.

    To each his own.

     

    But if part of your objection is thinking a $140m payroll in 2018 would mean the Pohlad family will lose money, I believe you're mistaken.

     

    Just for starters, the value of their asset has gone from $44m to over $1B.

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    Even looking at stats in the minors is a spotty at best. Two stat lines for last two full years in minors for two "Ace" pitchers.

     

    Corey Kluber

    2011 - AAA - ERA 5.56, WHIP 1.48, K/9 8.5, K/BB 2.04

    2010 - AA/AAA - ERA 3.49, WHIP 1.406, K/9 9.3, K/BB 2.95

     

    Dallas Keuchel

    2011 - AA/AAA - ERA 4.12, WHIP 1.265, K/9 5.0, K/BB 2.33

    2010 - A+/AA - ERA 3.77, WHIP 1.285, K/9 6.9, K/BB 3.69

     

    Berrios has much better stats in the minors than either of these two, so his chances of becoming an Ace are not out of the realm, nor does it exclude anyone else in the system from becoming an Ace.

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    I wonder how much Alex Cobb will cost? He's decent and 2 yrs away from surgery and pitched well this year. Trade rumor has him getting something like Santana got.

     

    If he gets a QO his market could be real small. Anyone know what pick the Twins would give up for singing QO'd free agent?

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    I wonder if a package of Gordon and Gonsalves gets us close on Lamet and Hand...

     

    If you're dangling both of them, I think you are trying to get something more of a sure thing like Archer. I don't know enough about Lamet, but I think the thought is that he could be had cheaper b/c he has more question marks. You shouldn't need two top 100 players for that.

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    The #1 'similar pitcher through age 24' (on Baseball-Reference) for Lamet is Ryan Rupe.  So he shouldn't cost much.  Maybe a C- prospect.

     

    But #9 on the list is Bob Gibson, so the Twins will have to trade Gordon, Lewis and Gonsalves for him.  Plus Duensing, of course.

     

    I'd be kind of scared of the high BB %.  He just seems kind of raw.  Turned 25 in July.  I guess they're is room and time for improvement, but I'm not sure he really helps the Twins much in 2018.  Jake Arrieta was #6 on the list, so maybe that is a sign that a quick turnaround is a possibilty with him.  Maybe the Twins should hire Chris Bosio, I believe he was credited with turning Arrieta from a mostly failed prospect into an all-star.

     

     

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